posted
Belle, I am so sorry that you are going through this. I want you to know that I am praying for you to find a church home where every member of your family is happy.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I just want to thank all of you for listening to my whining.
Like I said in the first post, none of you can really solve it for me, but just the fact that you care enough to read and offer advice and/or encouragement or hugs, well that makes me feel tons better.
I do appreciate you guys.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Sometimes I think churches should have something like an Open Forum Nite or whatever where members can debate and hash out bits of doctrine, with the implicit understanding that not a bit of the outcome will affect the way the church does its business.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote: Last week, he asked us to stand in front of the congregation, identified us as believers in a more conservative doctrine that he was, and then proceeded to tell everyone why we were wrong and why it was stupid to think the way we did.
. . .
And he did not give us a chance to correct the misconceptions, he told us that "You don't get the opportunity to rebut, maybe at another time I'll let you speak."
He did what?!? *mind boggles*
Belle, I had to read that three times just to believe that I was reading what was really there. After I read the first sentence, I expected it to say, “Last week, he asked us to stand in front of the congregation, identified us as believers in a more conservative doctrine that he was, and explained that it was a strength of our congregation that we could disagree and still worship together.” Or something like that. When I read what you actually wrote, my jaw literally dropped.
I know your church is not denominationally affiliated, but is this guy credentialed with any larger body? That was so ridiculously inappropriate that . . . that . . . there just are no words.
“maybe at another time I’ll let you speak”?!?! What kind of a power trip is he on?
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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He is a graduate from a Bible college, but no formal seminary training. I miss our old pastor so much. We had the same doctrinal disagreements with him, but he would never have done anything like this, he as you stated, liked the fact that we could worship together and belong to the same church body even if we disagreed on minor points.
Yes, there are others that were bothered by what happened, I've heard from a ton of members who called or stopped me in the hall to say they couldn't believe what happened. Some of them agree with us, doctrinally, some of them don't and just thought what happened that Weds. night was out of line.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I generally feel that it's not my place to make judgements about how other congregations and churches do things because I don't have the right frames of reference to do so.
BUT
I have to say that as I have read this thread, I've become completely riled up and want very much for you to find a place where you not only feel comfortable but also where your considerable talents and warm personality will be valued and put to good use.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Could you visit other churches with a friend, or your mom? Just to see how you feel other places? If Wes wants to stay there and the kids do, too, let them.
Seriously, I have known people who were married happily to the end of their days who attened different churches. It shouldn't be that big a deal, though I am concerned by how obviously incomprehensible Wes seems to find your feelings. That's just troubling. As My beloved is fond of saying, "If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy." Or, the same sentiment restated by another long-married man whose religious faith you guys share (since Ron and I don't) "Happy wife, happy life."
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Did I read it right that the associate pastor asked Wes to stand up in church the next week and say that he was glad to have been publicly criticized because it made him study more? The implication being that he now agrees with the associate pastor’s view of doctrine?
Does Wes interpret the events some other way?
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Belle, do you think any of the others who were also put off by his behaviour will say anything to him about it? Not necessarily about you in particular, but that his behaviour was unacceptable no matter who was on the stage.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I know people who would not criticize a pastor or minister for anything. Not that they are idiots, but their respect for the position is so great that they find it difficult to criticize the person in the position. Even when the pastor does something that if done by anyone else, they would at least object if not get really hot about.
My husband is one such. He has lines in the sand certainly, but I don't think even this situation would be over it if it were our pastor. Excessive drinking, infidelity or illegal acts would do it though.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Belle, I read through this entire thread not really thinking I'd have anything to add, but copying down some statements of yours that I found particularly important and that illuminated the issue. I've been through this kind of thing and seen it happen to other congregations that I wasn't a part of. I decided to copy a few things back here and comment afterall. I'm not sure I should, so I hope you don't think I'm treading where I ought not.
quote: I feel like the leadership has some reason they don't want me involved in anything, and yet I feel that God does want me to branch out and be more involved in directly ministering to others, but my church isn't giving me the chance to do that.
If you're wondering if I've ever turned down anything they DID ask me to do, the answer is no. I've done things that I didn't feel called to do, things I didn't even enjoy, simply because I wanted to serve, and I know that sometimes God wants us to stretch outside our comfort zone.
But I do feel strongly that when a person has certain spiritual gifts, and God-given talents and abilities, that God intends those gifts and abilities to be used in serving Him. I don't feel like the church is giving me the opportunity to do so many of the things I feel led toward. I don't know if that means I should just find somewhere else, that God is leaning on me to take my gifts to another place he has planned for me to use them.
This really does sound like there's some behind-the-scenes discussion of YOU going on. I don't want to feed any paranoid feelings you might already be having -- and I realize that if you are feeling a bit of the "why me" already that it might've colored what you posted -- but it is very hard to overcome a clique that wants to run things.
I have a few suspicions (no real knowledge of course) on why it might be happening, though: 1) Having you on any committee right now would upset the uneasy balance of power between those who want to move to a more liberal doctrine and those who want to stick to the more conservative tradition in this church. Since the AP is decidedly NOT a neutral party on this, you can bet that he would try to keep someone with as much moxy as you off of committees. You aren't pliable. Wes, on the other hand, is displaying a much more malleable nature. He's going with the flow. So he's on the committees (like the one to find a new pastor) because he isn't going to stick to the conservative principles and "disrupt things." Seems to me, this sort of thing could've been used to keep you off of committees for years if there's a dominant clique of people who disagree with your positions on things.
2) Some of that stuff about you having suffered from ADD and Depression is bound to give people a handy excuse for leaving you out of things. They may even have convinced themselves that they're acting in your best interest. Or, sadly, they may actually adhere to that doctrine you mentioned regarding depression being a sign of a lack of faith, rather than a legitimate health issue. Either way, it gives them the opportunity to appear faithful and concerned while hiding the true nature of their desire to exclude you.
I could spin more scenarios, but it's all just suspicions on my part. Besides, I want to move on because there's other stuff I think is even more important.
At any rate, here's a hug (((Belle))) to show that I don't think you're just making mountains out of mole hills.
quote:On the flip side - my husband is plugged into this church, he is heavily involved in foreign missions, and my children love it.
So what to do? I feel like if I pressure my husband to leave, I'm being selfish. But my husband says he's tired of seeing me come home from church and cry.
As a mother and a wife, you feel the desire to nurture the spiritual lives of your family. If they are getting a lot out of it, it's tough to make them leave a place they love, even if you think it's an evil place -- let alone when you think it's generally a "good" place with some problems. Let alone when the problems are seemingly focussed on you.
But, there's some stuff that Wes isn't grokking to, yet. He's being used, IMHO, to further the agenda of the change-doctrine crowd. He's the poster boy for someone who can be conservative and accept all the changes that the rest want. They're being sneaky and not very inclusive, but they can look like they're doing a thorough job by including people like Wes who will go with the flow. I said that earlier.
Here's the other thing that this quote made me think of. That selfishness is a bad motivator. I don't see it in you in this instance. I think your eyes are wide open and you're seeing things that Wes is not. And you have a choice. You can either work to open his eyes to it, or you can make the best of the situation for now and see what happens when there's a new pastor.
Truth be told, I suspect that the AP is flexing his muscles while he has the chance. Trying to be a leader.
My suspicions would be confirmed if, shaking his head in sadness, he tells the congregation how this process is going to take a long, long time. There just aren't pastors out there with <insert whatever qualifications here> or who can <insert personal issues here>, yada, yada, yada.
Frankly, to me, that'll be diagnostic of whether this guy is just on a power trip or not -- how quickly this committee settles on a new pastor, and how this person reacts to each new candidate.
At any rate, as the spiritual head of your family, I would expect Wes to take your concerns seriously. If he truly believes that is his role, and you believe it too, there's a contract implied that he's going to want to be sure your spiritual needs are met. It's not selfish to expect him to take them seriously if you have truly decided to follow his leaderhsip.
quote:My mom asked me what did I expect? Two men were trying to solve a problem neither one believed existed.
. . .
He thinks there is always a good excuse for what happened, and that it's just my abominable luck or something that they always seem to coincidentally happen to me.
Blessed are the peacemakers. Wes is a diplomatic kind of guy, I bet. Maybe shies away from confrontation, especially on interpersonal things?
Mom's right, in a way. If they don't understand what the problem is, how can they be expected to care about solving it?
But that's just mean-sounding isn't it? It makes Wes out to be part of the problem. That's not fair either. Truly, you do have to expect to work at making him understand your feelings and thoughts on this one. He's being insensitive, seems to me, but not surprisingly so. He likes the church. HE gets along. YOU've got the problem. I think you should explain what you think is really going on. That it's not just a bunch of excuses, but that you catch these people in outright lies -- and not lies of the "Southern Gentility" variety, but ones that are purposeful and directed.
quote:It’s a “piling on” effect, one humiliation on top of another, until the sum result is I have to bolster myself, internally building up strength every time I cross the threshold. Instead of being a place where I can come to worship God and fellowship with other believers, it’s become a place that makes me feel like less of a person.
Despite everything I've said so far, there's a component of depression that could cause these feelings. All I'm saying is that you should try to calmly look at all the incidents and decide whether they are big deals or not. People have lied to you and snubbed you. But not every instance was deliberate, I bet. People running volunteer efforts are never the best at organizing, figuring out who has what talent or interest, and making the best use of resources.
I think if you can focus on the stuff that makes it the MOST OBVIOUS that people have done the INEXCUSABLE, you'll have a clearer view of what the situation is, and, I hope, you'll feel less like it's a piling on.
At the very least, remember that depression can make things feel that way and examine whether that's been coloring your perceptions before you proceed.
Note also that depression can lead people to make poor decisions. So, for people who suffer from depression, an extra measure of introspection as well as external advice has a big payoff. IMHO.
I'm not a clinician, but if you are seeing one, your counselor can help you sort out your feelings, emotions, and thoughts and help put things into perspective so you can choose the best -- most desireable outcome and work toward that.
And ultimately, isn't that the real thing to work for -- deciding on an outcome that would be optimal? I can see working toward some goal would be a lot easier than feeling guilty over "selfishness" or worrying about whether you've made too much out of the various events over the past five years.
quote:At that time, the asst. pastor cornered me and wanted to talk to me in his office, and I told him now was not a good time. I tend to be very vicious when I'm defensive, it's a character flaw, but I can lash out and be very nasty to people when I'm hurt by them. So, I reasoned it would be best not to talk to him while I felt this way, but do it another time when I was calmer.
So my husband says if I'm not even willing to want to try and make this work, we may as well go ahead and leave. :sigh:
Simple solution...make an appointment. Take Wes with you so there's no miscommunication as to what was said in the meeting. Go in with notes and lay it all on the line.
If they interrupt you to rebut, start over at the beginning and let them know that you aren't going to stop until they let you finish.
Start by telling the AP that the reason you didn't accept his prior invitation is that you wanted time for calm reflection and that his improper singling your family out during services and at the Wednesday dinner was the reason you weren't ready to talk to him just at that moment. (By the way, were your kids present during that shameful display?)
I would love to see your list.
I had one important question about the church's organization. Is this a congregational church? Are they free to choose their own doctrine rather than adhere strictly to one set down by the "higher" church authority/organization (sort of like the Southern Baptists)? If so, then I think you can't really bring up the issue of this guy preaching AGAINST the conservative doctrine. But if there is an expectation that the local congregation CAN'T choose what doctrines to follow, then I think you can and should bring it up to the AP that he is preaching things that aren't in keeping...etc.
Anyway, I'll end with another hug (((Belle))). Being uncomfortable in ones place of worship is not fun. You've stuck it out longer than I would have. But then, you've got better reasons for doing so.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Bob, thanks for such a well thought out reply, I'm honored you'd take so much time on a problem that's not your own.
I'm still thinking about some of the things you said...I did decide to meet with the AP, and I also decided that I wanted Wes present. Good call on that one.
Not sure when it will be, will keep you posted.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:So, it's not enough of a reason in and of itself to leave a church over those types of doctrinal differences (at least, not to me, I admit congregations have split over such things many times in the past)and when you're interested enough to dig that deep, and take it to that level, you'd be hard pressed to find a church that lines up with you identically in every way anyway.
What is the doctrinal difference? Could you explain that a little more? You give some examples of doctrinal things, but don't say exactly what is going on. I understand it may be something you don't want to "put to Hatrack" for debate.
I'm thinking now of your husband's involvement in foreign missions. That is a big thing to ask someone else to give up. So if you want to move churches, I'd say you have to be willing to do it alone, or take a middle road- leave for now so the A.P. knows he's gone too far, but leave open the possibility that you'll give the new pastor a chance when he arrives.
Posts: 666 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
You know, Belle, I hate to say this but I kinda get the feeling your AP would like it if you left, like he's trying to push you out-- not just you, your whole family. To criticize you in front of the congregastion, then to ask your husband to stand up and say how helpful it was i unbelievable! Could he possibly be that clueless about how inappropriate that is?
I'm currently reading a devotional to help with my divorce, and the author talks over and over about how a church family should be a supportive and healing one. He says if your church isn't then it's time to find a new one. I think that's good advice in general...
Posts: 239 | Registered: May 2004
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I can only thing of one instance where my parents left a church they were actively involed in (apart from the many times they've moved).
We were going to a Baptist church in Racine, WI. One of my Mother's long-time friends' husband was the Associate Pastor there. My Dad was never a big fan of the church (he likes contemporary worship and a more casual dress code), but my Mom really liked it because it was a lot like the churches her Father pastored.
Well, one day, the head Pastor called our friend into his office to tell him something. It turns out that the head Pastor felt that the church needed to attract a younger crowd and that he needed to bring in a new Associate Pastor to head up the changes he felt were necessary. So, he effectively fired the Associate Pastor because he was old. Idiotic.
So, we left and found a church where we were all happy. They had contemporary and traditional worship. They had a vibrant youth program and a strong base in the 50+ crowd. I still miss that church (it's too far for me to go every Sunday).
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
bob Imagines the humorous disasters that could ensue after accidentally washing in hot rather than cold water.
Posts: 666 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Yeah, you know...that site could've been a lot funnier if the guy doing it hadn't had such a snarky attitude about Christianity in general.
It's really a clever idea.
Oh well. Still kind of funny and I think it's sort of appropriate to Belle's situation.
Belle -- thanks for the kind words. I really hope I haven't said anything too intrusive. I view these things as VERY delicate situations (despite my just having posted the hanky code).
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Belle, I have not read the whole thread, I'm sorry.(sometimes they move so fast!)
However, it sounds almost like the guy is creating a cult, not a church.
I hope you can find peace in this matter. How difficult it must be. our church is in upheaval right now, and many "pillars" have left. it makes me so very sad.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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quote: I know people who would not criticize a pastor or minister for anything. Not that they are idiots, but their respect for the position is so great that they find it difficult to criticize the person in the position. Even when the pastor does something that if done by anyone else, they would at least object if not get really hot about.
Years ago, my parents left the church that they had been going to for about 30 years and that my sister and I had grown up in. My brother-in-law, Dean, was a chaplain with the sheriff's office in Bradenton,FL, but was looking to go back to being a youth minister. A position opened up at our hometown church, which he had also been a member of before he went to seminary in New Orleans, and he was called by the new head pastor.
The pastor said he had Masters and Doctorates in both Divinity and Religious Education. Dean became suspicious of the pastor when he didn't seem to know any of the professors from NO Baptist Seminary although that was where he claimed to have his degrees from. Before confronting him, Dean did some checking and found out he only had one Masters degrees. Two other were completely fabricated and one Doctorate was an honorary degree for speaking at a graduation somewhere.
Dean then found out that from the associate pastor who was in charge of the church finances that the head pastor had performed a wedding at his old church in Alabama and tried to have our church pay for his trip as a business expense. He was denied, but waited til the finance minister went on vacation. He then told the secretary to cut him a check for the trip no matter what had she had been told before.
He was confronted - in private, not publicly - and rather than apologize or even act guilty, he lashed out.
To get to the point, it ended up splitting the church. When the truth came out, we were shocked at how many people turned away rather than face things. There was never any question whether he had done wrong things. In several business meeting (Baptists always have congregational meetings), he literally exploded and almost became violent in one. But so many people refused to condemn a head pastor.
If he had even once asked forgiveness, I could have understood some support, but his reaction was to publicly lash out at Dean and the other minister. Dean left soon after before being asked to leave, because very few of the deacons would support him. I think several of them hated how stupid it made them look that they had never checked his resume.
My parents lost many friends over that. Forgiveness is one of the areas my Dad needs work in , but how could you be friendly with someone who had turned their back on people your daugher and her husband whom they had known for years rather than admit their pastor had a problem.
I truly think God put Dean there to call the head pastor out. What the congregation did with that information was up to them, but I think God wanted that man exposed.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Since when? Baha'is can quote the Bible all they want, gingerjam; the Bible is considered part of scripture.
It's not like the Kitab-i-Aqdas has REPLACED the Bible for Baha'is; it supplements it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry TomDavidson i didn't mean that I'm not allowed to quote the Bible, i meant that I myself don't trust my memory or can't bring to mind appropriate Bible verses, and do them justice.
Posts: 46 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Belle, there's really nothing much more i can think of to add to what others have said, but I really feel for you and wish i could give you a great big hug. Posts: 46 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Belle, ain't much I can add, either. And yet, somehow, I'm going to anyway.
What you said about speaking up about depression and challenges and all that - I am so completely and totally on your side on this. It is vitally important. Too many people - women in particular it seems to me, but perhaps that's only because I have closer relationships with women - are caught up in trying to be perfect or the appearance of perfect without realizing that it's enough to be better than you were before. Too many get depressed and worn out and think they aren't doing enough, and they spread themselves too thin. And to top that off with histories of abuse or mental illnesses or problems of whatever nature you want to throw in, and they feel unworthy . . . Yes, you DO have to speak up. You're absolutely right. I'm vocal about my history, and while it was a hindrance in church in Canada (although it was probably more my singleness than anything else - they had no idea what to do with a single woman in her thirties, so they just ignored me), I didn't care. I had a lot of women tell me their history and say that they'd never talked to anyone else about it before because they were too scared. It gave them hope and strength.
You are valuable. You are important. You are helping other people. Whether the ministry at your church recognizes it or not, you are doing what's right. It's unfortunate that you have to go through this with them, and it's even more unfortunate that they don't understand. Just know that there are those who recognize your value.
I think your decision to meet with assistant pastor with hubby in hand and list of things to talk about is a good idea. I wish you the best of luck and hope that you get something resolved. Good luck! Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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We had the same doctrinal disagreements with him, but he would never have done anything like this, he as you stated, liked the fact that we could worship together and belong to the same church body even if we disagreed on minor points. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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