posted
I have to be honest here, I find this thing a little bit mind-boggling.
Ok, so words are just sounds that come out of our mouths, right? And written words are just a bunch of random symbols, right? The only thing that turns these noises and symbols into forms of communication is an understanding of the intent behind them.
Now, many people will see this as their greatest concern with curse words. That the intent behind the words is to insult. Yet, people can do a very effective job, and often even more effective, of insulting someone without curse words. So really, people concerning themselves over the intent of one word, when really the whole sentence is delivering the intent, are just being silly.
And then there are people who take it to an even further extreme. No matter what the intent behind the word, they hate to see them or hear them.
I could say: "I ****ing hate milk" And people would get annoyed. Yet, I meant no ill-will to anyone who heard what I said. I used ****ing instead of "really" as a word with more powerful emphases (plus it just sounds cooler!). The only way someone could conceivably be offended is if they really, really like milk. And don't like people disagreeing with them. But honestly, don't people like that deserve to be offended?
Some of people will say I'm using the word purely to offend the sensibilities of others. But then, by being offended you are allowing me to acheive my goal. However, if someone didn't care whether I used a swear word, they would negate any satisfaction gained by myself.
quote:The only thing that turns these noises and symbols into forms of communication is an understanding of the intent behind them.
I'm not sure I completely agree with it, but a man I admire once said something to the effect of "Vulgarity is the feeble attempt of a weak mind to express itself forcefully."
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posted
I don't curse simply because I think it's dumb and I don't wish to offend anyone around me. I don't know if the taboo is a reasonable one to everyone, but it makes sense to me. I do occasionally utter a curse word when no one else is around, but it's a rarity, and usually a fairly mild curse. I just think there are plenty of much more intelligent things one could say to emphasize one's self. Why offend someone if you can avoid it? Also, growing up with a short-tempered mother has taught me to associate curse words with unpleasantness. I don't like it when my friends curse, but I don't make a big deal out of it. It would probably be as offensive to them for me to ask them to stop as their cursing is to me. I've got nothing against free speech, I just think it's a vulgar/crude way to express yourself.
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posted
Many of the rules as to what is acceptable behavior and what is unacceptable are arbitrary. But still, politeness serves a very important and useful function in our society. It acts as a lubricant and helps us not rub each other the wrong way.
It's not all good -- it can be used as a shield for bad behavior by those how know how to play the game, for instance. But for the most part, following the rules of polite society is a good thing.
And jebus, Avadaru's post was not pointless. He made a point that didn't directly address what you asked, true -- but that's no reason to be rude.
posted
Jebus, what do you think of words that carry negative connotations? Like "nigger" or "fag"? Do you think we should feel free to use them as long as we mean no offense?
quote:****ing instead of "really" as a word with more powerful emphases
So, in fact, you believe it has a stronger emphasis. Aren't you being equally silly, then? I mean, it's just a sound coming from your mouth; plainly it can't contain any extra emphasis. You should SHOUT instead.
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quote:Many of the rules as to what is acceptable behavior and what is unacceptable are arbitrary. But still, politeness serves a very important and useful function in our society. It acts as a lubricant and helps us not rub each other the wrong way.
But how is it being impolite to say: "I ****ing hate milk"? When one thinks about it realistically.
quote:And jebus, Avadaru's post was not pointless. He made a point that didn't directly address what you asked, true -- but that's no reason to be rude.
I happen to be of the opinion that it was. But still, you're right there was no need to be rude.
quote: Jebus, what do you think of words that carry negative connotations? Like "nigger" or "fag"? Do you think we should feel free to use them as long as we mean no offense?
Yes. As long as people don't intend any offence, then people shouldn't take things offensively.
quote:So, in fact, you believe it has a stronger emphasis. Aren't you being equally silly, then? I mean, it's just a sound coming from your mouth; plainly it can't contain any extra emphasis. You should SHOUT instead.
Hah. Have you never used the word "really" or "especially" to add emphases?
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quote:But how is it being impolite to say: "I ****ing hate milk"? When one thinks about it realistically.
Jebus, I am being realistic. It is you that is being idealistic. In the real world, it is impolite to say that because that word is impolite. It an ideal word where people aren't offended by things that don't really matter, it wouldn't necessarily be.
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posted
Since you are asking for the thoughts of others, I will say that my automatic reaction to someone who curses to show their displeasure is that they are displaying a callous sort of anger, that they feel the need to use harsh words to show that anger, and that in using those words it is almost an act of unintended violence against me. I am not trying to rationalize this reaction, just explain what it is.
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quote: Jebus, I am being realistic. It is you that is being idealistic. In the real world, it is impolite to say that because that word is impolite. It an ideal word where people aren't offended by things that don't really matter, it wouldn't necessarily be.
And shouldn't we strive to achieve a more ideal world?
Obvioulsy, there are some people who are irrational in their dislike of curse words, and there's no point offending them, or trying to explain that they're being irrational. But does everyone agree they are in fact being irrational?
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quote: Since you are asking for the thoughts of others, I will say that my automatic reaction to someone who curses to show their displeasure is that they are displaying a callous sort of anger, that they feel the need to use harsh words to show that anger, and that in using those words it is almost an act of unintended violence against me. I am not trying to rationalize this reaction, just explain what it is.
Ok, but shouldn't you try to rationalise it, for yourself?
quote:Replace "intercoursing" with whatever synonym is appropriate. Perhaps fecesing? Drinking? Urinating?
Try the one I used: "really".
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quote: Obvioulsy, there are some people who are irrational in their dislike of curse words, and there's no point offending them, or trying to explain that they're being irrational. But does everyone agree they are in fact being irrational?
You ignored my question above, Jebus. I think it is completely irrational that people find the word "Oriental" insulting. But out of respect for others, I will be careful in what term I use to describe what I think of as being "Oriental people".
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posted
The argument that it's just a word, just another sound, is silly. If that were the case- if meaning didn't matter, then we could use a swear word that meant rice pudding to the same effect. If that were the case, motherf** wouldn't be the worst of the terrible swearwords we know. If it's just another word, then why are so many people so utterly offended by its use?
Sure, words are just sounds, but it is the popular perception of words that make them useful. You rely on everyone to accept the same meaning of your words so you can make yourself understood. If we're going to say that f* can mean "really" or any other word, the usefulness of language decreases as the nuances between words disappear. If you're not going to use f* as a deliberately crass exclamation, people will pick another word to take its place.
The reason curse words exist is to offend. People use them to offend and people who have decided to use them on a much more regular basis, in an inane context, use other words when they really mean to express what that word used to mean. And most people I've met who use them with high frequency do so to adopt an image or attitude of non-comformity and disdain for society. This is exactly why teenage punks pick up the habit.
Seen another way, clean, respectful language is used to show honor, respect, and good will towards those around you. Rather than gripe about what you're "not allowed' to say (because, trust me, things could be far more draconian than they are now), how about trying to express respect toward your fellow human beings with the language you use?
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quote: You ignored my question above, Jebus. I think it is completely irrational that people find the word "Oriental" insulting. But out of respect for others, I will be careful in what term I use to describe what I think of as being "Oriental people".
Understandable. But do you agree those who find the term Oriental insulting, when you mean no insult, are being irrational?
quote: It is as irrational as your dislike of milk. Why don't you try liking milk?
How is a dislike of milk irrational?
I'm no biology expert, but I'm pretty sure its to do with taste buds and what not.
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quote:And shouldn't we strive to achieve a more ideal world?
I never said we shouldn't, I was responding to your idea that realistically, curse words should not be offensive. I told you that ideally they shouldn't be offensive, but realistically they definitely are.
quote:Try the one I used: "really".
We are obviously not understanding each other.
My point was that the only reason that certain words (we'll use the f word for this example) are commonly used is because they are offensive. Yes, that word can be used as a stronger form of "really", but only because it is offensive. If the f word only referred to intercourse without all of the vulgar baggage that comes with the word, then the sentences "I ******* love milk" would be pretty much the same as "I intercourse love milk".
It is impossible to remove the a word from the connotations that come with it, especially in English. I know that it annoys you, but that's just the way the world is.
I know you think the world shouldn't be that way. Personally, it doesn't bother me. Human nature is such that even if we de-stygmatized all words, within a short period of time we'd have a whole new list of words that have all new stigmas.
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posted
I think that "Oriental" being negative is a crying shame because it holds *no* negative meaning for me. In fact, if anything, it has a positive connotation. But realizing that it might inadvertantly insult others is a good enough reason for me to avoid using it--especially with people I don't know well.
As for your liking of milk being irrational, it is completely irrational as is every instance of preference or dislike. It isn't about your tastebuds at all since your tastebuds and mine are pretty darn similar. I love milk. It's in your head, dude.
quote: I know you think the world shouldn't be that way. Personally, it doesn't bother me. Human nature is such that even if we de-stygmatized all words, within a short period of time we'd have a whole new list of words that have all new stigmas.
The word "suck" used to be very vulgar. Now--not so much. Maybe the same will be true for some of the words we consider cuss words. But for now, this is the way society is, and that actually does make a difference.
"Hell" and "damn" are not at all swear words in South Africa and some other previous colonies of Britain. I can't remember about England itself though. But in England "bloody" and "bugger" are very bad words. If I use them here, it is funny. If I use them there, I am being offensive. That is an important distinction and one that I should pay attention to if I intend to be respectful to others.
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quote:Understandable. But do you agree those who find the term Oriental insulting, when you mean no insult, are being irrational?
Irrational is not always bad. Rational is not always good.
I love a lot of songs that I think are crappy songs. Why? I don't know. I'm irrational that way, and I don't feel bad about it.
quote:How is a dislike of milk irrational?
I'm no biology expert, but I'm pretty sure its to do with taste buds and what not.
It is much more than taste buds and chemistry. Much of it boils down to personal taste, which is definitely irrational.
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quote:The argument that it's just a word, just another sound, is silly. If that were the case- if meaning didn't matter, then we could use a swear word that meant rice pudding to the same effect. If that were the case, motherf** wouldn't be the worst of the terrible swearwords we know. If it's just another word, then why are so many people so utterly offended by its use?
Sure, words are just sounds, but it is the popular perception of words that make them useful. You rely on everyone to accept the same meaning of your words so you can make yourself understood. If we're going to say that f* can mean "really" or any other word, the usefulness of language decreases as the nuances between words disappear.
It's a stronger version of really. That's the way I, and many other people intend it. Once that becomes the intent of the word, that's what the word means. Whether that causes the usefulness of language to decrease somehow (though I don't know how) is irrelevant.
quote:If you're not going to use f* as a deliberately crass exclamation, people will pick another word to take its place.
So?
quote:The reason curse words exist is to offend. People use them to offend and people who have decided to use them on a much more regular basis, in an inane context, use other words when they really mean to express what that word used to mean. And most people I've met who use them with high frequency do so to adopt an image or attitude of non-comformity and disdain for society. This is exactly why teenage punks pick up the habit.
And thus, to be offended by them is to allow to them succeed in thier objective.
quote:Seen another way, clean, respectful language is used to show honor, respect, and good will towards those around you. Rather than gripe about what you're "not allowed' to say (because, trust me, things could be far more draconian than they are now)
Oh really? I was under the impression that social limitations on speech was the most opressive it could get.
quote:how about trying to express respect toward your fellow human beings with the language you use?
But I don't see the language I use as being direspectful.
In trying to explain why these words are offensive, you have told me that it is because they are offensive. Great job!
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posted
"I don't care. However, I hate the idea of this forum being misidentified&blocked by censorship software."
"What do you mean by that?"
Didn't see Beverly's intervening post before posting my own. Personally, I find the words she chose to post to be even less acceptable on a public forum such as this. I don't put up with them in real life at all, except in terms of group self-identification.
What I meant is that software isn't intelligent, can't understand context. And therefore, censorship programs use keywords/phrases to identify what should be blocked. Which led to such things as those programs blocking news articles which contained reference to former House Majority Leader Dick Armey.
At the workday level, NewScientist reported that a respected researcher doing consulting work was called to the division head's office to be scolded for using her office computer to search for porn. Because the corporate censorship software used the first four letters/symbols of words to identify&report computer misuse. Her specialty and what she was hired to research: X-ray crystallography.
posted
Unfortunately Jebus, that IS the reason they are offensive. There's nothing you can do about it. You find it irrational, but it's just a matter of linguistics. Deal with it.
quote:In trying to explain why these words are offensive, you have told me that it is because they are offensive. Great job!
I told you it was because it reduced the usefulness of language and reminded people of gross things.
And telling someone not to be offended is one of the more inane things I've ever heard.
What if I called you a brainwashed idiot whose writing made little more sense than the grunting of a primitive ape and then told you not to be offended by that?
quote:My point was that the only reason that certain words (we'll use the f word for this example) are commonly used is because they are offensive. Yes, that word can be used as a stronger form of "really", but only because it is offensive. If the f word only referred to intercourse without all of the vulgar baggage that comes with the word, then the sentences "I ******* love milk" would be pretty much the same as "I intercourse love milk".
It is impossible to remove the a word from the connotations that come with it, especially in English. I know that it annoys you, but that's just the way the world is.
That's a good point. However, I don't think it's impossible to remove the connotations.
quote: I think that "Oriental" being negative is a crying shame because it holds *no* negative meaning for me. In fact, if anything, it has a positive connotation. But realizing that it might inadvertantly insult others is a good enough reason for me to avoid using it--especially with people I don't know well.
Ok, but are those people being irrational when they get offended by a word when you mean no offence?
quote:As for your liking of milk being irrational, it is completely irrational as is every instance of preference or dislike. It isn't about your tastebuds at all since your tastebuds and mine are pretty darn similar. I love milk. It's in your head, dude.
But that's assuming that everything tastes the same to everyone.
quote:Edit: And you still never answered my question about words like "nigger" and "fag" which *definitely* have a negative connotation.
Ah that's what you're talking about. I think you'll find I did.
quote:Unfortunately Jebus, that IS the reason they are offensive. There's nothing you can do about it. You find it irrational, but it's just a matter of linguistics. Deal with it.
Heh screw you. I won't deal with it. I'll analyse it.
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posted
I believe that no words are off-limits, but there are words that are considered vulgar. It's not that the words are not allowed - it's that when you use them, knowing they are impolite, you have the possibilty of offending those around you. Depending on your relationship to the listener there is a chance you are also deliberately disrepecting them.
For instance, I rarely swear in front of my grandmother because I respect her enough not to offend her. She finds the words offensive so it's good manners not to use those words.
In front of my friends or my spouse my language is pretty blue. Once I go out in public and I am surrounded by strangers I give them the respect of not cursing. Not because the words are bad - because I do not know them well enough to know their beliefs or to be that informal around them. I might pick a fry from a friend's plate ... but I wouldn't take a fry from someone at the next table ... see where I'm going?
Society is based on token behaviors. When I tell someone "Thank You" it means little until you realize it's a token of gratitude - a giving of respect. Swearing, in many instances, is a token of a lack of respect. The words are not bad - but because they are considered vulgar - using them in the wrong circumstance can be a token of disrespect.
I am offended when I hear teens swearing loudly in public. I find it rude. I know they are just trying to be big and bad, but I do take it as a sign that they don't care about others.
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quote: Ok, but are those people being irrational when they get offended by a word when you mean no offence?
Yes. Just as irrational as you are about disliking milk.
quote: But that's assuming that everything tastes the same to everyone.
So, you wonder if I see the same blue as you do? I think it is *far* more likely that it is about preference. Preference is by nature irrational. As has been said, irrational!=bad.
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quote: I told you it was because it reduced the usefulness of language and reminded people of gross things.
I don't know how it reduced the usefulnnes of language though.
quote:And telling someone not to be offended is one of the more inane things I've ever heard.
What if I called you a brainwashed idiot whose writing made little more sense than the grunting of a primitive ape and then told you not to be offended by that?
posted
Already gave you mine, Beverly. With the repetition&additions, I think you are being obnoxious. Apparently, none of those words offend you, or you wouldn't be posting them.
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quote:In trying to explain why these words are offensive, you have told me that it is because they are offensive. Great job!
Exactly! The reason they are offensive is because they offend people.
That is the reason. I know you don't like it.
And as I have said twice before in this thread, words like that only can be used to mean "really" because they are offensive. If they weren't offensive, they wouldn't be used.
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quote: Already gave you mine, Beverly. With the repetition&additions, I think you are being obnoxious. Apparently, none of those words offend you, or you wouldn't be posting them.
They don't offend me personally because none of them apply to me. I did not do it to offend, I did it to make a point. I repeated myself because he didn't acknowledge what I said. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I hope people know that I wouldn't use those words in context, ever.
Edit: I see his response now. It must have come up while I was posting. I will delete my repitition.
quote:Sure, words are just sounds, but it is the popular perception of words that make them useful. You rely on everyone to accept the same meaning of your words so you can make yourself understood. If we're going to say that f* can mean "really" or any other word, the usefulness of language decreases as the nuances between words disappear. If you're not going to use f* as a deliberately crass exclamation, people will pick another word to take its place.
There you go Jebus. You can read it again.
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quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, but are those people being irrational when they get offended by a word when you mean no offence? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. Just as irrational as you are about disliking milk.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But that's assuming that everything tastes the same to everyone. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, you wonder if I see the same blue as you do? I think it is *far* more likely that it is about preference. Preference is by nature irrational. As has been said, irrational!=bad.
Well I happen to believe you are wrong. I don't believe preference is irrational, just a relfection of who we are and our experiences. I believe that someone's dislike for milk can be traced back to a series of perhaps small or large acts in their lives which have shaped who they are.
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Ok, so words are just sounds that come out of our mouths, right? And written words are just a bunch of random symbols, right? The only thing that turns these noises and symbols into forms of communication is an understanding of the intent behind them.
Words are sounds which we as a group have agreed mean certain things. Curse words are offensive because we as a society have agreed they mean something offensive. This is utterly arbitrary, but no more arbitrary than agreeing that the word "cat" refers to a small four legged furry domesticated animal.
Asking why people are offended when someone says f***, is as ridiculous of asking why people think of felines when someone says cat. The only difference is that we have certain sub-cultures that have given a different meaning to f***.
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quote:Ok, but are those people being irrational when they get offended by a word when you mean no offence?
No more than you are being irrational when you choose to use a word which is widely known to have offensiive meaning when you mean no offense.
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quote: I believe that someone's dislike for milk can be traced back to a series of perhaps small or large acts in their lives which have shaped who they are.
And I think it is the same way with words.
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quote: Exactly! The reason they are offensive is because they offend people.
That is the reason. I know you don't like it.
And as I have said twice before in this thread, words like that only can be used to mean "really" because they are offensive. If they weren't offensive, they wouldn't be used.
And that is why it is silly to be offended by them.
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sure, words are just sounds, but it is the popular perception of words that make them useful. You rely on everyone to accept the same meaning of your words so you can make yourself understood. If we're going to say that f* can mean "really" or any other word, the usefulness of language decreases as the nuances between words disappear. If you're not going to use f* as a deliberately crass exclamation, people will pick another word to take its place. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:Words are sounds which we as a group have agreed mean certain things. Curse words are offensive because we as a society have agreed they mean something offensive. This is utterly arbitrary, but no more arbitrary than agreeing that the word "cat" refers to a small four legged furry domesticated animal.
Asking why people are offended when someone says f***, is as ridiculous of asking why people think of felines when someone says cat. The only difference is that we have certain sub-cultures that have given a different meaning to f***.
Not really. As the only reason we think of a cat when someone says "cat" is because we know that's what they mean. However when someone gets offended at hearing **** when it wasn't meant offensively it's because they are mistaken in how it was to be recieved or they are irrational.
quote: And that is why it is silly to be offended by them.
You know, he used to agree with you. I know, because I remember him feeding me the same arguments when we were dating. I'm glad he has learned to care more about treating others with respect. Your attitude *does* seem, um, young.
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