I understand that using swear words when dealing with certain people is stupid. I wouldn't use them in a job interview. I wouldn't use them around my parents that much. I wouldn't use them with most people outside my age-group actually.
But I think it's stupid that I don't. And the only reason I don't is because of the irrationality of others.
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:As the only reason we think of a cat when someone says "cat" is because we know that's what they mean. However when someone gets offended at hearing **** when it wasn't meant offensively it's because they are mistaken in how it was to be recieved or they are irrational.
And if I used the word "cat" to mean "ice cream", many people would assume I was referring to a feline and respond accordingly. If I said "I really enjoy eating cat with chocolate sauce", it would hardly be irrational if cat lovers took offense even though I meant something entirely different.
What is irrational is that you use a word which has a widely accepted meaning (crude and offensive) and then think it is unreasonable for people to be offended by it.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote: And if I used the word "cat" to mean "ice cream", many people would assume I was referring to a feline and respond accordingly. If I said "I really enjoy eating cat with chocolate sauce", it would hardly be irrational if cat lovers took offense even though I meant something entirely different.
That's because they would be mistaken of the intent, which is understandable. However, once they are made aware of the intent, and they still feel insulted that you have just connected the word of the cats they love some much, with the idea of eating them, then they are being irrational.
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Is it the speakers responsibility to choose words that will be correctly understood or the listeners responsibility to interpolate between the words to obtain correct understanding?
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Look at it this way. Let's say I have a friend and she is morbidly obese. Maybe I wake up one day and feel it's my job to discuss the matter with her. I know my goal is not to offend her so I feel perfectly okay in saying:
"Sally, you are really fat. Your clothes hardly fit, your husband doesn't want you anymore, and you can hardly fit in the seat at the theater. And you had 2 pieces of cake the other day - like you needed 2 pieces!"
Am I to be surprised when she tells me to kiss off and runs sobbing out of my house? I mean, I didn't mean to offend her, right? The problem must be with Sally!
The point is that intent is only a part of the equation. My knowledge of Sally or how a reasonable person might perceive my words must also - if I am a caring person - be taken into consideration.
I might think F--- is a great way to punctuate my sentences but if Reverend Brown doesn't agree then the fault is not with Reverend Brown. I should have chosen a more appropriate word.
Just like I would skip the fat jokes when I am with my friend Sally. Common courtesy. Michelle
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So you sidestepped the question, I'll rephase for you. What prohibits you from urinating precisely when and where you are when the urge hits you?
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Part of communicating effectively is to understand how your words will be received by your audience.
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MichelleEly: Absolutely. Coming *at least* half-way, if not more, is part of us all getting along in this crazy world.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: Is it the speakers responsibility to choose words that will be correctly understood or the listeners responsibility to interpolate between the words to obtain correct understanding?
I think it's easy to understand when I say "I ****ing hate milk" That I don't mean it offensively.
On the other hand, where I to say "**** you" I probably would mean it offensively.
quote: So you sidestepped the question, I'll rephase for you. What prohibits you from urinating precisely when and where you are when the urge hits you?
Well, I could get a fine from a nice police officer.
But other than that, and the possibility of offending other people, I see no reason why not to.
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I understand that using swear words when dealing with certain people is stupid. I wouldn't use them in a job interview. I wouldn't use them around my parents that much. I wouldn't use them with most people outside my age-group actually.
But I think it's stupid that I don't. And the only reason I don't is because of the irrationality of others.
It's irrational for people to not like certain words that you would prefer to use? Okay. If someone were to use racial epithets in front of you and you objected, would you be irrational? Just words.
If someone were to loudly and crudely talk about your mother, no intent to offend you, would you object? Why?
Posts: 152 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Part of communicating effectively is to understand how your words will be received by your audience.
On the other side, it is also important to try to understand what was meant by what was said.
For example, in Brazil, it is no more offensive to say that somebody sure has gained some weight these last few months than it is to tell them that their hair shure has gotten longer. Many missionaries, especially the female ones, really had to learn to not be offended when people said things like that.
So in interacting with you, jebus, I can try to not be offended when you use crude words. But it would be hard for me. It would be even harder for me now that I know that you know how offensive those words are.
Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
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Expletives — words intended to express crass emotion, anger, and a desire to hurt — are an integral part of our language and our hardwired social behavior. Trying to expunge the expletive from language (in this case, by declaring that no words should be considered offensive) would be very much like trying to expunge the verb or the preposition. You could try to remove the words themselves, but they serve such a vital purpose in communication, that eventually, they would have to be replaced somehow.
One way to express crass emotion is to get up into someone's face and go "AAAAAAAAAAAAGHBLABLABLABLABLABLAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!" and then hit them with a rock. Or, to achieve the same effect, you can just say "F***!" It's the same thing, except one is done with language and one is done without. "F***!" is actually a remarkably effective word, in that it is so very offensive that you can let out a lot of really powerful emotion with a single syllable, rather than with a violent fit.
The desire to express violent emotion is not something that will go away if we remove the linguistic means of doing so. We'll just become less articulate about it. You'll see more scenes of someone biting their lip in frustration and banging on their desk and screaming.
While some people overuse the word "F***!" to the point at which it no longer shocks them, it still serves the same purpose that it did before. It adds weight to an expression, and vents emotion in a satisfying sort of pleasurable way, even when you are used to it. (It's actually kind of like smoking, if you think about it. When you first smell someone else's tobacco smoke, it is noxious and makes you cough. But when you get used to using it, it becomes an important part of how you relax and influence your own frame of mind.)
I suspect (with zero evidence) that it is significant that people with certain psychological disorders feel compelled to curse at inappropriate times. That desire to curse is a natural part of who we are. It's not just something we made up one day.
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Are you intentionally missing the point? We all learn rules that govern polite existence. While some rules may be adhered to more strictly than others, it is still a function of society. The reason that some find cursing offensive is the same reason that whizzing against the tree in a crowded park is offensive, it's part of our learned behaviour.
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You belong to two different sub-cultures. One has given F*** and offensive meaning, the other mearly uses as an exclamation point. Both groups assignment is arbitrary as the definition of every word is arbitrary.
If you had no idea that there was another commonly accepted us for F*** and you let it fly in front of your grandmother, then it would be irrational for her to take offense. But you do know that many people define the word in an offensive way, so it is irrational of you to use it around those people when you mean no offense.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote: One way to express crass emotion is to get up into someone's face and go "AAAAAAAAAAAAGHBLABLABLABLABLABLAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!" and then hit them with a rock.
Oh, that was Laugh-Out-Loud-Good.
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Jebus, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. Though I strongly suspect that as you get older your opinions on this will change.
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quote:But other than that, and the possibility of offending other people, I see no reason why not to.
But the entire point using language at all, it to communicate. You are saying that it is irrational for people to understand a word in any other sense than you used it, even when that word has a widely accept different meaning.
If I suddenly decided that I found the word "hair" to be offensive, that would be irrational. But most curse words have been widely used in an offensive manner for decades if not generations. It is irrational for you to expect the rest of society to accept your subcultures redefinition of the word.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote: But how is it being impolite to say: "I ****ing hate milk"?
It's impolite in the same way that wearing a hat in church is impolite. It's a tradition that has logical roots but which is largely arbitrary in the modern era.
However, despite its lingering arbitrariness, it's still considered impolite enough that people can't do it without seeming impolite, even if they'd like to insist otherwise.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Anti, if it makes you feel better, that's what Dagonee and David Bowles are CONSTANTLY doing to me Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: You belong to two different sub-cultures. One has given F*** and offensive meaning, the other mearly uses as an exclamation point. Both groups assignment is arbitrary as the definition of every word is arbitrary.
If you had no idea that there was another commonly accepted us for F*** and you let it fly in front of your grandmother, then it would be irrational for her to take offense. But you do know that many people define the word in an offensive way, so it is irrational of you to use it around those people when you mean no offense.
Good point. But, I believe most people nowadays, having watched plenty of movies and what not, should be able to understand that many other people use curse words with no intended insult. So why is the responsibility on one sub-culture to be more understanding of another?
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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It is acceptable to use the word phuq in films. And yt, you'll notice that if anyone calls the judge a phuquing idiot, he or she won't make it out of jail.
I like to put it this way: [Almost] everybody swears, but not in public. It's simply a sort of artificial manner; also on this forum it happens.
If you want a 'phuqued up' metaphor, it's like the Cold War. The US and Russia were supposed to be officially at war (NATO vs Warsaw Pact), but a certain level of peace was maintained, despite each other knowing the other's intentions.
Say we're neighbours, if I see you in the morning leaving home when I am, and I hate you, I will probably wish you "good morning", and you will reply politely, despite me wanting to wish you to "go roll down the phuquing stairs, you scheety, old, damn bastard". You would probably wish my head be rammed up a prostitute's arse by the same token, but you wouldn't say it.
It's called politeness, it's what we use to act nicely to each other. You don't say everything you think, nor do I. If the same concept maintained peace for 50 years, we can maintain peace for 50 years by not swearing and insulting each other needlessly, jumping to conclusions as we swear aimlessly.
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for Geoff, ![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
for me.
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well better go to bed now.
