posted
Smasher, a sincere apology rather than defensiveness would go a long way to helping this situation. Hatrack may be "just a forum" to you, but to the regulars here it is a unique community with it's own culture. You are stepping into a culture you are unfamiliar with and committing faux pas. Rather than trying to tell everyone how wrong they are, try stopping a moment, learning about the environment you are in, and understanding *why* your behavior is out of place.
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quote:Believe in what you want to, but know the truth about your beliefs. I am sick to death of listening to blind Christians argueing points that have already been said in the Bible. Think something up from the depths of your own conscience.
I posted a little about how my biggest testimony crisis was solved here. I'll answer the rest of the questions, and offer my theory.
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I'm really sorry for asking this and posting in your thread, but this struck me.
quote: Too many who claim that title treat religious people with "polite like you would an ignorant child" kind of respect.
I can certainly see why you feel that way. For me, the biggest trouble I have with being an atheist is not wanting what I believe to offend anyone at all. I'm not out to prosyletize (sp?). Like any attempt at being politically correct, being non-offensive and respectful does kind of come out condescending. When I meet someone who feels atheists are doing the ignorant child thing, I don't want to do that. So, how would believers like non-believers to be?
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quote: So, how would believers like non-believers to be?
I figure I'll try to not be arrogant if they will try not to be arrogant. I think that even if they think religious beliefs are "silly", they should take care when and where they express those thoughts. It is a belittling opinion to hold, just as atheists/agnostics feel belittled by believers who think they are better people than they are because they follow God.
Is it OK to hold belittling opinions? I guess so. I don't know. But I think we have a responsibility to take great care how (and if) we express them. I also think we should be very magnanimous and open to finding new respect and admiration for those who think differently than us.
Edit: One other thing. It really bugs me when atheists (usually agnostics don't do this) think that an intelligent or rational believer is an oxymoron. Are there blind-followers out there? Sure. And you know what? I don't have much more respect for them than you do.
posted
The problem with the Golden Rule standard is that it will lead to offending others.
For example, if someone believes in hell, and believes that not believing in God will result in someone going to hell, then they would want to be told about it in the most persuasive manner possible.
Similarly, if someone view religion as essentially a giant con game wasting time and resources, a prison even, they may view attacks on religion as the only rational thing to do.
In this case, the failure in the rule's operation would be in the person failing to analogize what they would want to another situation - a tricky exercise at best. In other words, in defining "as you would have them do unto you."
Of course, I can't think of anything better to go by.
posted
Well, not that I don't enjoy the friendly banter that's been going on here , but I think I'll go back to what this thread was intended for.
Continuing from my previous post:
quote: Confrontation with people of no/little religious faith.
I avoid confrontation like the plague. (Notice how I don't add anything to the other discussions on this thread, and just continue with what I was talking about yesterday? Case in point.) A confrontation, to me, means a conflict. I don't like getting in debates because I rarely have the right words at the right time to back up my beliefs and opinions. Also, I very easily see others' points of view, and while that doesn't necessarily make me agree with them, I can understand where they're coming from, so I usually don't see the point in arguing with them.
However, if by confrontation, you just mean being presented with people of other faiths, or no faith, I don't have a problem with that. Sometimes I'm curious about what other people believe and why, so I ask them, but it doesn't bother me.
quote: How we feel about other religions or no-religion.
It's hard for me to imagine how some people can look at everything around them, see the things that have happened in their lives, and still deny the existance of God. That's one thing I don't understand.
I do believe that Jesus is the only way, as he said, no one gets to the Father except through him. If someone doesn't believe that Jesus is God's Son, and that he gives us salvation, I don't hold that personally against them. It doesn't make me think less of them. But I tend to feel more comfortable and be more open with people who have beliefs similar to mine. I just feel like they can understand me better because they know where I'm coming from. I still have friends who follow other religions, or no religion, but my closest friends are Christians.
quote: How we feel about life
Life is nothing compared to the eternal after-life. We can still celebrate in life, and praise God in what we do, but I think we are here to get to know God and to bring as many people to salvation as we can. Nothing else really matters.
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"It really bugs me when atheists (usually agnostics don't do this) think that an intelligent or rational believer is an oxymoron."
My problem here is that I hear conversion stories like Jay's -- he debated evolution with a creationist who convinced him that evolution wasn't possible -- and can't help wishing that Jay had had a more competent evolutionist on his side to poke holes in the creationist's argument. In general, it's been my observation that no good intellectual argument for God exists, and consequently I tend to feel that people who were converted by argument -- rather than testimony or a bolt from the blue -- simply weren't exposed to the right counter-arguments. This is often confused with a sense of intellectual superiority, and perhaps rightly so -- because I do believe that people who believe for that reason and that reason alone are ignorant of more salient facts.
posted
In my experience, believers and non-believers alike (with some exceptions, of course) tend to follow Varley's version of the Golden Rule: Screw unto others before they screw you.
I think it's also known as the Bronze Rule, maybe. But maybe I shouldn't post on this thread when I don't feel good...
posted
Wow…. So my faith is less since I come to it logically instead of a burning bush? Not sure I agree, but I understand what you are saying. I also counter that my father is probably one of the most devout atheist evolutionists around. He always had some kind of counter for any argument. He’s a biology teacher and a devout reader of numerous scientific journals. So I was rather well exposed to it growing up. By the same counter if I had a more competent creationist to debate you……
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quote:In general, it's been my observation that no good intellectual argument for God exists
I wasn't even going to get into this discussion/argument, but I want to share my opinion on this.
Tom, I agree with you. I haven't found a good, intellectual argument that God exists either. But I think that's kind of the point. God transends rational thought. If there was proof, even in the intellectual sense, that God exists, what would faith be? There is a verse in the book of Hebrews that says something like, "Faith is believing in what we do not see." (If I'm wrong about that, or if anyone can quote it better, please feel free to correct me. I don't claim to be super-knowledgable about scriptures.) I'm not trying to preach at you or anything, I'm just saying that that's why I don't need solid evidence that God exists to believe it.
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Ok Tom, I hate it when you edit and add whole sentences….
Intellectual superiority? What? Because I have a different view that makes me look like arrogant know it all? How have I done that? Anyway…. I’m not sure I’m getting your point here.
Just because someone has a counter doesn’t make it right.
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quote:I haven't found a good, intellectual argument that God exists either. But I think that's kind of the point.
Yes, exactly. I think that faith is a very personal thing, arising from personal spiritual experiences. I haven't had one, and I'm not looking for one anymore, so I am an atheist.
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posted
I don't know which side to post in. I don't disbelieve in God, but I'm on hiatus from "religion" as it were. And I've got a lot more peace with my conscience about where I am now than I ever had before.
There is a Bible verse that says
quote: 1 Peter 3:15 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) Public Domain
15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
The thing is, when many churched chidren are taught the "be ready to give an answer" the "meekness and fear" at the end and the "sanctify in your hearts" at the beginning is left off to emphasize the middle. And even if it is included, comprehension of either concept and applying it to daily life, is difficult for an adult, much less a child.
The thing that currently gets to me about many believers, (right now particularly my well-churched cousins) is that they have been taught a "script" to follow, even if not directly, unconsiously. And they keep saying the next thing, and the next thing. And when I demonstrate to them them I know the subject better than they do, they keep going on, with dogged persistence that makes no logical sense (Yes, I know they'd say it's worth it from a spiritual sense, but lets ignore that for a second.) I tell them that I still don't believe in their specific concept of "God" and that whatever I do believe is between me and God to work out, and I'm ok with what God thinks of me right now, they respond with anger and frustration. Now I know that most of my cousins are teenagers, but it frustrates me that so much that what they are taught is anti-logic. And I'm not talking about creation vs. evolution. I'm talking about blindly taking formulaic sayings as gospel without actually reading and studying the Scriptures for *themselves* Always letting someone else interpret them, even though the protestants were supposed to have been liberated from that.
I believe Faith can have a rational basis. My father is an example of that. The faith such as I have, is a totally rational faith. Faith can be based on experience and *still* be rational faith. But illogical fanaticism, and close mindedness, in the face of a calm reasoned argument from *either* side, bugs the heck out of me.
quote:Hebrews 11 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear
4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
I love the poetry of the passage if nothing else.
AJ (And you can use verse 3 as a Biblical argument for the existence of Black Holes. )
posted
"Intellectual superiority? What? Because I have a different view that makes me look like arrogant know it all? How have I done that? Anyway…. I’m not sure I’m getting your point here."
No, you weren't. I was saying that it made me look like I had a chip on my shoulder about intellectual superiority. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Why we believe in a higher power. This question is a thread in and of itself, and it's extremely difficult, at least for me, to capsulate. For me, it's a combination of reason, study, and personal experience. I could go into great detail on each one of those, and how they contributed -and continue to contribute- to my belief in Deity, and in particular, the Deity I worship as my God.
If we didn't believe in a higher power, why we started. I was raised as the son of an Assemblies of God pastor. God and Church were a part of my life since before I was a fetus. I was raised with basic principles and doctrines. But, as many on Hatrack have shown, just because one is raised in a religion doesn't make it a predetermined result that the individual won't try to 'step out of the box', and reconfirm things on their own. I did this twice.
From what sources does our understanding or our faith spring? My "Understanding" and "My Faith", while being two separate elements, I think, both have their roots in the same essential (varied) places: Family, friends, examples of strangers, Scriptures, History, Prayer, Personal revelation.
Confrontation with people of no/little religious faith. Visited PWEB's "Religion and Moral Philosophy" forum lately? *grin* In most cases, I don't have many in-person discussions concerning faith with those who don't have it, or simply aren't interested in it. When individuals attack tenets of my faith by ridicule, or my mischaracterizing them, I try to politely and tactfully set the record straight. Sometimes I slip, and fail in the 'polite' aspect, but I try very, very hard. I have many wonderful friends of little or no faith. Suffice it to say, I don't follow the advice of "Lambuel" concerning atheists
How we feel about life (death is covered in another thread nicely) I feel that it's a wonderful gift - and this includes the trials and tribulations that we go through. If we come out of them having learned something that can either be applied to better our lives - or even better yet someone (or many other) else's - than the hardship was a blessing in disguise. I view many temporary hardships as being preventative of larger, far more devastating hardships.
How we feel about other religions or no-religion. Well, in my case this particularly unique, and I guess I'll discuss it chronologically.
Growing up, I didn’t think much about other religions, not having much experience with them first hand. Muslims, practitioners of Hinduism, Shintoism – these were all Mythical People Who Lived Far Away and had Nothing To Do With Me. This was not something I was taught, it was just how I realize I viewed the situation – or, more accurately, didn’t view the world. I didn’t think about it. It wasn’t in my mind.
Differences in Christian denominations were even less apparent to me. I knew I’d at least heard of Baptists when I was young, because the day that I was originally Baptized by my father (in a different church building than our own because, simply, we didn’t have a baptismal font in our building), I turned and asked my mother if we were in a Baptist Church. I assumed that since it was a church building were people were being Baptized, than it certainly must be a ‘Baptist Church’. My mother smiled, and told me no, it wasn’t. “Oh, okay,” I replied, and thought nothing more of it.
Catholics I never knew much about, other than, as far as I knew then, they liked Mary a whole lot more than we did, and they had priests (which our church didn’t), and their priests and Church leaders wore a bunch of really elaborate costumes. And there was the Pope. I knew he existed, and was the head of the church, but that’s all I knew. Honestly, that’s the most I knew about the Catholic church until many, many years later.
Presbyterians, Methodists – to me, they were all a bunch of churches that were somewhat in-between Catholics and us.
Mormons I first heard about through TV commercials when I was in middle school. You know, those commercials giving warm family messages that didn’t seem to have any additional religious messages, but always ended with, “A message from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.” I think I asked my dad who they were, and he said something about them believing Jesus visited the American Indians. Crazy, right? I also vaguely realized that we had an LDS meetinghouse near our house there (in Springfield, MO). I rode my bike around there a lot, had considered walking in a few times, but never did. They had a great parking lot for bike riding.
One of the people who became one of the most influential figures in my life was a girl I met in high school, named Rachel Kraft. I only found out through one small little incident that she was a Mormon, and didn’t really think anything of it. (I was at her house for an X-Files party – yeah, this girl introduced me to the X-Files – and she and a couple of her girlfriends started singing a silly giggly song abut being ‘Mormon girls with hair in curls”, and then she said something about ‘And then Joseph Smith went up to the hill something-or-other…’ and I don’t even remember what she said after that. Having never heard of Joseph Smith, I thought she meant John Smith, and thus concluded she had seen Disney’s Pocahontas one too many times.
That was the extent of our religious dialogue. I just didn’t have any interest in theology at the time.
I moved away to Jersey that year, and shortly afterwards found myself having some Theology questions that I asked my dad and other associate pastors that I could never really get sufficient answers for. “Was there Baptism before John the Baptist, or did he just make it up?” “Dad, where did your ordination come from? Where did they get their ordinations from?” – among other things. But I didn’t dwell on them. I guessed they were insignificant, and thus shoved them aside to the ‘who cares’ pile.
But at some point, I remember thinking, “Wow. I’m so lucky that of all the Churches in the world, I was lucky to be born into the TRUE one!” – and then realizing that probably everyone born into any church – or religion in general – felt the same way. That was a mind-blowing thought for me.
It wasn’t until my Freshman year of College that I decided I wanted a new Bible, a good Study Bible. I decided I wanted to study the roots of my faith myself, and see if a) I couldn’t find out the answers to my questions from myself, and b) to if the answers I found confirmed what I already believed. I didn’t go to Church much in this period. Mostly, admittedly, because of laziness. Sleep was more attractive to me than theological discourse.
It was in my Junior year, following a bit of a personal emotional ‘awakening’ that I finished reading the (NIV Study) Bible cover to cover, Genesis to Revelation. I found it incredibly insightful, and found my faith in God to be reconfirmed. Not all of my questions were answered, and a few new ones were raised, but I was convinced that we just didn’t have the answers to them. I was sure that, based on the Bible alone, my Dad’s church was the closest a Church could come to being the ‘True Church’.
It was in the middle of this year that began a friendship with (yet another) Mormon girl. Religion primarily had nothing to do with it – until emotions started getting into the mix, and we both kind of, simultaneously, fell for each other.
Now, religion was a MAJOR issue.
I was convinced that the Mormons were wrong because, quite frankly, it was ridiculous, and I had just convinced myself that my church (which, I may note, up to this point I had chosen not to apply for membership in, even though my father kept wanting me to) was the Right one.
But, I loved this girl, and wanted to know more about her Deceptive Faith. So I got a copy of the Book of Mormon (from my Dad’s apologetics library, actually), and found myself a copy of “How to Save Your Loved Ones From Mormonism” as well as “Reasoning from the Scriptures with Mormons”. Reading the BoM didn’t go all that far – I got a little into Mosiah when I put it down, finding things ridiculous and kind of boring. I kept a notebook where I would write down everything I found ‘off’ or ‘silly’. By this time I had also ordered a copy of a Shiny New Triple Combination (containing not only the BoM, but the other LDS specific volumes of Scripture ‘The Doctrine and Covenants’ and “The Pearl of Great Price”. Cursory skimming of these works let me find even more ridiculous things that I couldn’t believe anyone could find plausible.
Following one particular (long distance phone) discussion where I pointed this and some other things out to this girl, she had shut off the phone and (I’m told) thrown it across the room.
That was the last time for a long while that we ever discussed specific theology and doctrine head on.
Eventually, although it was hard, we realized the relationship couldn’t go any further. We loved each other, but we were both committed to our faiths, and would not convert for the other, nor would we want each other to convert just for reasons of maintaining a relationship. It just wasn’t to be. We remain wonderful friends to this day.
But unknown to her, my fascination with LDS theology didn’t end. I had the idea come into my mind that I would stand up as a bit of an Internet Missionary To The Mormons – I would be the one to show them the error of their ways. I knew the scriptures, surely I could confound them, and show them The Truth!
I did this for a while on a couple forums – including Hatrack. I was quite a little bastard, and ruffled a lot of feathers.
I continued to read a lot of Anti stuff, and considered myself a Mormon Expert.
So when EnderCon came in Summer of 2002, I knew I’d find the opportunity to actually visit Salt Lake and see some of the sites I’d only read about educational and fascinating.
Which I certainly did. But it was in the tour of the conference center when I first started to get a feeling of Shame – and that’s only because I was caught in my own lie.
See, when we started the tour, a couple of Sister Missionaries, the ones giving the tour, asked if me and my friend had read the Book of Mormon. “I have,” I said, knowing full well I hadn’t really read the ‘whole thing’. But what did that matter, right? I’d done more research than she probably ever had. I probably knew what she believed better than she did!
Eventually, the tour took us up a a portion of the conference center that housed the original Arnold Friberg paintings that are reprinted in all the paperback editions of the Book of Mormon. I always loved those paintings, one in particular.
So when the Missionaries asked if there was any pic we liked the most, I immediately pointed out my favorite. “The one of Samuel the Lamanite,” I said. “That’s a wonderful one,” she said. “Can you tell us a little about that story?”
Well, no, I couldn’t, because I hadn’t…actually…read up to that point. My response sort of betrayed this. I said, “Uh, it’s been a long time. I don’t really remember.” Idiot.
Not only had I arrogantly lied to a pure-in-heart Sister Missionary who had dedicated a year and a half to what she thought was right, I had been caught. I felt a bit like crap on the bottom of a sneaker.
So I decided to make an honest man of myself after the fact, and actually read the BoM cover to cover, this time trying to see what was in it that these people loves and found so inspiring and ‘true’.
It was if I was reading a completely different book than I had before. And it scared the bezeezus out of me. I was getting distinct and somewhat forceful-yet-peaceful impressions that THIS IS TRUE.
So I threw the book across the room. Honestly. I did it.
But I picked it up again eventually, and read it through. Then I read the D&C. And the Pearl of Great Price.
The feeling of omigodthisistrue continued, so I knew I needed to pick up my Bible again and read through, reconfirming that it pointed on every page to how false this ‘Mormon Gospel’ was.
Instead, I found stunning new confirmations of LDS doctrine on almost every page.
That scared me.
So I started reading Eusibius’ Ecclesiastical History, to find out what the Early Church was like, and how different from LDS theology it really was…
…and I kept finding things that CLICKED with LDS theology. Every step I took to prove it wrong kept, well, backfiring.
I started realizing also how inaccurate all those anti-books I had been reading were (I worked in Lifeway Christian Stores – owned by the Southern Baptist Convention, so I had a plethora of volumes to choose from), and how misleading, and how some of them contained blatant falsehoods. (One of my favorites, a book geared towards informing Christian teens about what other religions and ‘cults’ believe called “WHY SO MANY GODS?”, stated that “Mormons teach that Jesus was born as a result of Mary and Joseph having SEX!” – which I knew for a fact was not what the LDS Church taught at all. I pointed it out to manager, and took it off the shelf. It was back on the shelf within two days.)
This struggle went on for close to a year. I felt that it was true, but I didn’t want it to be. I kept trying to find excuses, and reasons as to why it couldn’t be true. Everytime I thought I found something, it was quickly shown to me why it wasn’t really a problem at all.
It was a very, very spiritually tough time for me. I didn’t tell anyone about this, because it had to be between myself and God – I wouldn’t be caught in a game of tug-of-war. I prayed vocal, heart-wrenching prayers asking for the Truth to be revealed.
…and the ‘LDS IS TRUE’ impressions kept coming, now more forceful than ever. That wasn’t the answer I wanted God to provide, so I kept asking, hoping he’d give me another answer.
At one point, following a particularly tough prayer, I had the thought that things would be so much easier if some random person would just come up to me and give me the answer. None of this ‘listen to the Spirit’ thing, I wanted a flesh and blood person to deliver God’s message! But of course I couldn’t ask that – so I didn’t. It was a thought, which I reproved myself for afterwards. Who was I to set a test for God?
The next day, in my acting class, one of my classmates – with whom we’d never had any sort of theological discussions – came up to me and said, “Dave? I’ve got a question. It’s gonna sound kind of weird.” “Go ahead,” I said. “Are you Mormon?” She asked. I blinked. I remembered my thought of the night before. “No….why do ask?” It turns out a friend of hers was, and had seen some new person in Church, and described him to my classmate. She thought it sounded like me, so she asked if it was. It certainly wasn’t. “Okay,” she then said, and walked away, leaving me weirded out of my mind.
That was the event I usually refer to as ‘God Throwing Rocks At Me.”
It was still several months before I actually decided to attend an LDS Sacrament meeting. Bringing my leather-bound LDS Quad scriptures with me, people assumed I was already a member. Thinking this, a family invited me to dinner afterwards – when they realized I wasn’t a member, they noted that all 4 missionaries were already coming over for dinner along with me, so would I mind taking a first discussion?
I did, and committed to Baptism to two weeks from that day. On February 28, 2004, I took the plunge.
It’s now over a year later, and I have had confirmed day in and day out this was the most correct decision I’ve ever made in my life.
I’ve since studied other Faiths, and have adopted a high level of respect for them. I’m in the process of reading the Qur’an, and have read much about Hinduism and some of their Vedic literature. I am reading through the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I am reading the history of Greek Philosophy.
Everything reconfirms my decision. This past week a received a special Church ordinance called a Patriarchal Blessing, in which a specially ordained Priesthood holder – whom I had never met before – gave me blessing and admonitions about my life that were so personal, and so specifically me, that no one could have given them without special knowledge concerning me, some of which I hadn’t made clear to anyone – but God. I know that this was an inspired ordinance. I know that the Priesthood power by which it was given is true. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints truly is Jesus Christ’s Church – and that the Gospel it teaches is True.
I've left out a lot of things (and very important people)that led me to this conclusion, but what I've written here is sufficient for now.
I’ve learned it. I’ve experienced it. I’ve lived it.
quote:I don't know which side to post in. I don't disbelieve in God, but I'm on hiatus from "religion" as it were. And I've got a lot more peace with my conscience about where I am now than I ever had before.
AJ, I'm right there with you. That's one of the main reasons I haven't posted to either thread, though I've watched both with interest.
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Wow Taalcon - I had never heard your testimony before. It is pretty amazing. Thanks for sharing.
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Why we believe in a higher power. Dave said it best, logic, life experience, and ultimately confirmation from that Power.
If we didn't believe in a higher power, why we started. I looked for answers to questions I couldn't figure out on my own and found them.
From what sources does our understanding or our faith spring? Scripture is first and foremost. I get a lot of "technical" scriptural knowledge from religion classes or discussion, but it's not really until I go to the scriptures that I feel my understanding increases instead of just my knowledge.
Confrontation with people of no/little religious faith. Most of it for me was in my dorm floor last year (certainly not exclusively but then I haven't had that much time to pick a fight ). Pretty much they all thought I was weird, and possibly racist, which ticked me off. And then when I got to know them better they kept trying to get me to watch porn or to go drinking. I got in a lot of debates with them (I feel like I always won too ). But I don't think the religious aspect ever got too contentious.
How we feel about life (death is covered in another thread nicely) It's a lot longer than I understand.
How we feel about other religions or no-religion. Bluntly: they're wrong. Long answer: almost all have a portion of the truth (yes, even non-Christian ones ) but they all lack some aspect, or key doctrine, and all lack the authority of the priesthood. That's what I think, if I didn't, I wouldn't be a member of my Church.
To extend that a bit, I don't feel hostile, threatened or anything else by other religions. Nor do I think I'm some how superior or given a special place on Earth because I've found (what I think is) the true Church.
posted
I have a homework project I have to do right now, but I've been thinking about this all week. Will post soon.
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quote: Verily, we know perfectly well where the stories of the Christian god come from, to wit, they were made up by a desert tribe about 3000 years ago. And what is your concrete proof that the Easter Bunny is a myth?
I'd like to point out that no one I've ever heard of has died for the cause of the Easter Bunny. I'm not talking about religion-induced wars, I'm talking about the martyrdom of the apostles of Christ's early church, suffering death and persecution rather than recant their testimony.
The above statement was made by KoM in the Nonbeliever thread. But I figured my statement belonged here.
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"I'm talking about the martyrdom of the apostles of Christ's early church, suffering death and persecution rather than recant their testimony."
Is it your assertion, Beverly, that martyrdom proves the validity of a belief? In my opinion, it proves only the strength of that belief.
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posted
Depends on the circumstances. I think that someone being willing to die for their beliefs can be strong evidence for the reality of their witness.
To elaborate some, I know that there are people willing to die for their religion by sacrificing their lives in the effort of doing violence in the name of their religion. It seems to me that the majority of these people have been told by someone else that by so doing they will go to heaven and be greatly rewarded. *These people are often raised with very narrow sources of warped information to the point one might think of them as brain-washed.
So there is obviously a question: is this person mentally balanced? I think that one has to take the global picture of the person on order to make a judgement call on this.
For instance, I find the testimony of Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus to be a powerful one when I look at the information I have about him as a person. First, he was very much strongly anti-Christian. He believed his cause was just to the point of assisting in the assasination of the Christian "troublemakers". We see him holding the coat for a man who is stoning Steven.
He later completely changes direction after receiving a vision of Jesus Christ. He devotes all his time and energy towards a completely different belief. If he actually saw Christ and realized that he had been horribly in the wrong, this makes sense and is consistent. He suffers great persecution and (I believe) death receiving what in return? From what I can tell his reward is doing the right thing.
What else would have caused this change? Since I already believe in God and don't find that belief outlandish, it makes sense to believe that he saw what he claimed to see. There are other, perhaps more subtle reasons surrounding this whole thing that cement my belief, but because those other subtle reasons are different from person to person, it isn't surprising that others would look at the same evidence and come away with a different explaination--particularly if they find the existance of God to be highly unlikely.
I have similar reasons for believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that he and others saw what they say they saw. Again, there are the more subtle reasons that differ in the perceptions of different people that cement my belief, other more subtle evidence that "confirm" this belief. But they are more personal and don't transfer as well from person to person. They in part have to do with what I believe the "effects" of the teachings are and their harmony with other truths and goodness. That is where it becomes highly personal. This is why I have no problem with someone looking at the same evidence and coming away with a different conclusion.
It seems plain to me that there is a difference between a sincere witness willing to die for their true belief in something they actually beheld from the divine, and someone who has been mentally abused or is deluded. We may disagree as to who fits in the category, but I feel I can make a pretty good case for the witnesses in which I believe. Might they have been deluded? Sure. Do I *believe* they were? No.
posted
*I know that this addresses a concern of yours, Tom. That when there is a homogeneous group of people living together, there is a self-sustaining group-think that happens. Basically, the people in the group tend to have a warped view of the world around them.
I agree that this does happen. That is why I think it is good for a Latter-day Saint to live out of Utah, at least at some point in their lives (keep in mind that the majority never do live in Utah, at least in these days when there is a definite majority outside Utah.)
I think it is good to have one's ideas challanged, to consider the reasons why a person believes the way they do. If they have not had to wrestle for their faith, never had to question it, then it isn't really their *own* faith but rather something they have inherited. It think this is the same for any ideology a person holds, whether it be political, cultural, whatever.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Bev, have you considered those cults that commit mass suicide? There's one every few years. Clearly this is a rather strong belief, right? Mere persecution would mean nothing to these people. But I trust you do not think they are correct in their beliefs.
So then, for a neutral outside observer, what distinguishes comrade Smith from a modern commune-living cult with two hundred members in the hills of California? And sheer numbers is not acceptable; if you chuck enough cults at the general population, sooner or later one of them will catch on. Just as happened with Christianity and Islam. Neither Jesus nor Mohammed were the only prophets of their day, after all.
(I apologise if this is not appropriate for the thread, but it seems to have moved on a bit from its witnessing origins.)
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: Bev, have you considered those cults that commit mass suicide?
Absolutely. And I think I addressed that idea indirectly. At least, I was thinking of it.
quote: So then, for a neutral outside observer, what distinguishes comrade Smith from a modern commune-living cult with two hundred members in the hills of California?
They didn't commit mass suicide? Seriously, it is the global perspective of which I spoke. I don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet because he claimed to be. Many have claimed this. I believe it because of the many many details surrounding the circumstances. It is the evidence as well as the spiritual feelings I have about them.
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, but I think I'll go back to what this thread was intended for.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Yes, this is Kat from Dallas.
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