posted
Erik, I think you have stated the issue here. I think people do tend to find other world views threatening. Especially those who have grown up in an area saturated with one prominent world view. But when we find other's world views threatening/silly/not-worthy-of-respect/etc., we can never learn to understand each other. There will always be prejudice and misunderstanding.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I say whatever works for you, works for you. Believe in what you want to, but know the truth about your beliefs. I am sick to death of listening to blind Christians argueing points that have already been said in the Bible. Think something up from the depths of your own conscience.
I am an Athiest, and proud of it. I believe everyone has a right to believe what they wish, and follow what they wish. A person should not be judged by what religion, or lack-thier-of, they have. I know I sound like I am contradicting myself, but I'm not.
I also lose my self when people try to force thier beliefs on someone, as if they're so much better, and higher then everyone who does not agree with them. Damned haughty people.
posted
Wrong thread, Smasher. Very rude, and very disrespectful. You are not doing yourself or your beliefs any favors. Take it to the non-believers thread.
Posts: 1163 | Registered: Jan 2005
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EDIT: Incidentally, if you lose yourself, how do you ever know that the self you find is your old self, and that you didn't just take someone else's self?
posted
This is Smasher's first post on this side of the forum. I wouldn't be surprised if it weren't the first thread he read on this side of the forum. *wry laugh*
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
How is it rude to simple post an opinion? Please explain.
I am a believer, just not of God. I believe in many things that are on the spiritual level, so why can't I post here?
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posted
Complaining about "Damned haughty people" in the context of that post is either willfully blind, intentionally rude, or sadly unaware.
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posted
Complained? All I said was that they annoy me. They will still be who they are wether or not I complain, so is it not useless to complain? I do not waste time on complainning. Just because I said that does not make me unaware, or blind. It is just an opinion, that I have thought out many times. I suggest you first learn of the word, then say I am unaware again. Also, if you are speaking of a misunderstanding of my post, which I think you are, here is what I meant. I never meant religious people are haughty, just the ones who think they are better then someone else because of thier religion
Boko, I simply meant I get angry for a matter of seconds until I think about the situation, in rational terms.
Lady Jane, how was I rude?
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posted
Smasher, perhaps you should read the first post in this thread, then the first post in the Nonbeliever thread, and then think about the situation in, as you put it, "rational terms."
posted
Because what you said insulting to people who do believe. It also obliterated the point of the thread - people do not share things that are important to them to people who are primed to insult and denigrate what they are saying.
It is a matter of appropriateness. You are definitely entitled to your opinion, but it is not appropriate here. By posting it here, you are saying that any comment from you is worth more than the feelings of those around you, the intent of the thread-maker, and the purpose of the discussion. It's sacrificing the well-being of the community for yourself. That's rude.
Not all comments that are okay to say are okay to say at anytime. It's innapropriate to cheer for your sports team at a wedding, it's innapropriate to hit your future father-in-law up for money the day you meet him, and it's innapropriate to post about your scorn for those who believe in God in a thread asking for their testimonies.
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posted
I did read it, and I meant to post only my opinion, and then I get disrespected because of an opinion. I thought I should see if people are so inconsiderate over a such a simple matter as a post with an opinion in it.
Wow, Lady Jane, you are way over-dramatizing my post. I am saying that everyone has valid opinions on the truth, and they should be share. Everyone has the right to speak about thier beliefs, me no less, no more, then you do. I just wonder how you got all that out of my simple post saying my opinion on matters.
I was not speaking to anyone in here, just to the general public.
posted
"I did read it, and I meant to post only my opinion, and then I get disrespected because of an opinion."
Let me point out two things:
1) The first post in this thread specifically asked people to avoid posting opinions of that type, in the hopes of creating a "safe" environment for believers to post. Since there's already a thread for nonbelievers, that's a reasonable request.
2) The content of your opinion isn't as much an issue as the rather inflammatory way you chose to express your opinion. You were not, as they say, diplomatic.
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posted
you didn't just post your opinion about what you believe. You posted your opinion about what you percieve as deficiencies in what others believe.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I believe in a higher power because of creation. Everything is to perfect for it to all be by chance. Things work to right for any kind of random evolution to create. I didn’t always believe in a higher power and was atheist until college. My good friend debated me on creation verses evolution all the time and showed critical flaws in evolution that have no chance of being explained other then by a creator. Jesus showed his love for his creation and died to save it. All I had to do was accept his sacrifice and believe and I will now enjoy the gift of heaven even though there is no way I deserve it. I don’t mind people of other faiths. Most of the different Christian religions do ok for me as long as they belief that Christ died for their sins. In personal confrontations with other faiths I try to be respectful and if I get a chance to discuss religion with them I’ll be careful. I feel great about life and am anxious to get to heaven to enjoy eternity. Sure enjoying creation is fun and all, but eternity is what matters.
Thanks Occasional. Don’t you love the typical attacks? Drop me an email sometime.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Okay, that characterizes much of my early encounters with those who don't believe in religion. I realize now that it is a characteristic of the young and vocal more than a characteristic of an agnostic (the non-combatic agnostics didn't talk about it), but it was still a problem. Part of the worth of a system of beliefs is looking at what they come up with, and I didn't like what rebellion against the church so often came up with.
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posted
Wow, you all need to calm down. It is a forum. You post. I was not saying anyone is less, or more. I was not being haughty by saying damned haughty people. I never said anything about haughty people being below me.
I simply, yes simply typed in how I fel about a topic. I was not saying anything bad to anyone. You all take something so minor, so seriously.
My first post was just an opinion. I mentiond that I am an Athiest, and mentioned that I think that everyone is entitled to thier own beliefs.
This is my last post in here. Don't want to get "stoned" to death.
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posted
Smasher, a sincere apology rather than defensiveness would go a long way to helping this situation. Hatrack may be "just a forum" to you, but to the regulars here it is a unique community with it's own culture. You are stepping into a culture you are unfamiliar with and committing faux pas. Rather than trying to tell everyone how wrong they are, try stopping a moment, learning about the environment you are in, and understanding *why* your behavior is out of place.
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quote:Believe in what you want to, but know the truth about your beliefs. I am sick to death of listening to blind Christians argueing points that have already been said in the Bible. Think something up from the depths of your own conscience.
I posted a little about how my biggest testimony crisis was solved here. I'll answer the rest of the questions, and offer my theory.
Posts: 1163 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I'm really sorry for asking this and posting in your thread, but this struck me.
quote: Too many who claim that title treat religious people with "polite like you would an ignorant child" kind of respect.
I can certainly see why you feel that way. For me, the biggest trouble I have with being an atheist is not wanting what I believe to offend anyone at all. I'm not out to prosyletize (sp?). Like any attempt at being politically correct, being non-offensive and respectful does kind of come out condescending. When I meet someone who feels atheists are doing the ignorant child thing, I don't want to do that. So, how would believers like non-believers to be?
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote: So, how would believers like non-believers to be?
I figure I'll try to not be arrogant if they will try not to be arrogant. I think that even if they think religious beliefs are "silly", they should take care when and where they express those thoughts. It is a belittling opinion to hold, just as atheists/agnostics feel belittled by believers who think they are better people than they are because they follow God.
Is it OK to hold belittling opinions? I guess so. I don't know. But I think we have a responsibility to take great care how (and if) we express them. I also think we should be very magnanimous and open to finding new respect and admiration for those who think differently than us.
Edit: One other thing. It really bugs me when atheists (usually agnostics don't do this) think that an intelligent or rational believer is an oxymoron. Are there blind-followers out there? Sure. And you know what? I don't have much more respect for them than you do.
posted
The problem with the Golden Rule standard is that it will lead to offending others.
For example, if someone believes in hell, and believes that not believing in God will result in someone going to hell, then they would want to be told about it in the most persuasive manner possible.
Similarly, if someone view religion as essentially a giant con game wasting time and resources, a prison even, they may view attacks on religion as the only rational thing to do.
In this case, the failure in the rule's operation would be in the person failing to analogize what they would want to another situation - a tricky exercise at best. In other words, in defining "as you would have them do unto you."
Of course, I can't think of anything better to go by.
posted
Well, not that I don't enjoy the friendly banter that's been going on here , but I think I'll go back to what this thread was intended for.
Continuing from my previous post:
quote: Confrontation with people of no/little religious faith.
I avoid confrontation like the plague. (Notice how I don't add anything to the other discussions on this thread, and just continue with what I was talking about yesterday? Case in point.) A confrontation, to me, means a conflict. I don't like getting in debates because I rarely have the right words at the right time to back up my beliefs and opinions. Also, I very easily see others' points of view, and while that doesn't necessarily make me agree with them, I can understand where they're coming from, so I usually don't see the point in arguing with them.
However, if by confrontation, you just mean being presented with people of other faiths, or no faith, I don't have a problem with that. Sometimes I'm curious about what other people believe and why, so I ask them, but it doesn't bother me.
quote: How we feel about other religions or no-religion.
It's hard for me to imagine how some people can look at everything around them, see the things that have happened in their lives, and still deny the existance of God. That's one thing I don't understand.
I do believe that Jesus is the only way, as he said, no one gets to the Father except through him. If someone doesn't believe that Jesus is God's Son, and that he gives us salvation, I don't hold that personally against them. It doesn't make me think less of them. But I tend to feel more comfortable and be more open with people who have beliefs similar to mine. I just feel like they can understand me better because they know where I'm coming from. I still have friends who follow other religions, or no religion, but my closest friends are Christians.
quote: How we feel about life
Life is nothing compared to the eternal after-life. We can still celebrate in life, and praise God in what we do, but I think we are here to get to know God and to bring as many people to salvation as we can. Nothing else really matters.
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posted
"It really bugs me when atheists (usually agnostics don't do this) think that an intelligent or rational believer is an oxymoron."
My problem here is that I hear conversion stories like Jay's -- he debated evolution with a creationist who convinced him that evolution wasn't possible -- and can't help wishing that Jay had had a more competent evolutionist on his side to poke holes in the creationist's argument. In general, it's been my observation that no good intellectual argument for God exists, and consequently I tend to feel that people who were converted by argument -- rather than testimony or a bolt from the blue -- simply weren't exposed to the right counter-arguments. This is often confused with a sense of intellectual superiority, and perhaps rightly so -- because I do believe that people who believe for that reason and that reason alone are ignorant of more salient facts.
posted
In my experience, believers and non-believers alike (with some exceptions, of course) tend to follow Varley's version of the Golden Rule: Screw unto others before they screw you.
I think it's also known as the Bronze Rule, maybe. But maybe I shouldn't post on this thread when I don't feel good...
posted
Wow…. So my faith is less since I come to it logically instead of a burning bush? Not sure I agree, but I understand what you are saying. I also counter that my father is probably one of the most devout atheist evolutionists around. He always had some kind of counter for any argument. He’s a biology teacher and a devout reader of numerous scientific journals. So I was rather well exposed to it growing up. By the same counter if I had a more competent creationist to debate you……
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:In general, it's been my observation that no good intellectual argument for God exists
I wasn't even going to get into this discussion/argument, but I want to share my opinion on this.
Tom, I agree with you. I haven't found a good, intellectual argument that God exists either. But I think that's kind of the point. God transends rational thought. If there was proof, even in the intellectual sense, that God exists, what would faith be? There is a verse in the book of Hebrews that says something like, "Faith is believing in what we do not see." (If I'm wrong about that, or if anyone can quote it better, please feel free to correct me. I don't claim to be super-knowledgable about scriptures.) I'm not trying to preach at you or anything, I'm just saying that that's why I don't need solid evidence that God exists to believe it.
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posted
Ok Tom, I hate it when you edit and add whole sentences….
Intellectual superiority? What? Because I have a different view that makes me look like arrogant know it all? How have I done that? Anyway…. I’m not sure I’m getting your point here.
Just because someone has a counter doesn’t make it right.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:I haven't found a good, intellectual argument that God exists either. But I think that's kind of the point.
Yes, exactly. I think that faith is a very personal thing, arising from personal spiritual experiences. I haven't had one, and I'm not looking for one anymore, so I am an atheist.
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posted
I don't know which side to post in. I don't disbelieve in God, but I'm on hiatus from "religion" as it were. And I've got a lot more peace with my conscience about where I am now than I ever had before.
There is a Bible verse that says
quote: 1 Peter 3:15 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV) Public Domain
15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
The thing is, when many churched chidren are taught the "be ready to give an answer" the "meekness and fear" at the end and the "sanctify in your hearts" at the beginning is left off to emphasize the middle. And even if it is included, comprehension of either concept and applying it to daily life, is difficult for an adult, much less a child.
The thing that currently gets to me about many believers, (right now particularly my well-churched cousins) is that they have been taught a "script" to follow, even if not directly, unconsiously. And they keep saying the next thing, and the next thing. And when I demonstrate to them them I know the subject better than they do, they keep going on, with dogged persistence that makes no logical sense (Yes, I know they'd say it's worth it from a spiritual sense, but lets ignore that for a second.) I tell them that I still don't believe in their specific concept of "God" and that whatever I do believe is between me and God to work out, and I'm ok with what God thinks of me right now, they respond with anger and frustration. Now I know that most of my cousins are teenagers, but it frustrates me that so much that what they are taught is anti-logic. And I'm not talking about creation vs. evolution. I'm talking about blindly taking formulaic sayings as gospel without actually reading and studying the Scriptures for *themselves* Always letting someone else interpret them, even though the protestants were supposed to have been liberated from that.
I believe Faith can have a rational basis. My father is an example of that. The faith such as I have, is a totally rational faith. Faith can be based on experience and *still* be rational faith. But illogical fanaticism, and close mindedness, in the face of a calm reasoned argument from *either* side, bugs the heck out of me.
quote:Hebrews 11 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear
4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
I love the poetry of the passage if nothing else.
AJ (And you can use verse 3 as a Biblical argument for the existence of Black Holes. )
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, but I think I'll go back to what this thread was intended for.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Yes, this is Kat from Dallas.
