We cut off other bits of our cats out of convenience. Because more kittens would be a bother. So they won't spray, let out mating calls, etc..
So why not declaw? I can see not wanting to declaw an outdoor cat. They need it for survival. But an indoor cat? That NEVER goes outside? What do they need claws for except to shred the carpet, furnature, curtains, legs?
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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It really injures their feet quite a bit. It's like cutting off the tips of a person's fingers or something. I really don't believe in declawing at all. And I think if people think like that they shouldn't bother to get a cat. Neutering and spading is one thing, it can be a bit damaging to a female cat to have litter after litter, and bringing more kittens into the world to be gassed is just cruel beyond believe, but declawing, no way. I hate it.
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Why is pulling toenails out of humans considered inhumane? Toenails do cause holes in ones socks and runs in ones pantyhose.
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They also get a lot of trouble walking too. And some site said that declawed cats tend to spray and pee more as well.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I saw some other page about training cats, but I can't find it. It said that a lot of declawd cats tend to spray more or pee in places they are not allowed ot pee in.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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True, but neutering and spaying benefits the cat in a way... Not like declawing at all. Cats need their claws for using the litterbox, walking, climbing, everything.
But what's really annoying is some sort of surgery to remove the vocal chords of dogs and cats... I hate that...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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My cat doesn't need his front claws for anything. He can jump 4.5 feet in the air and possibly higher and he uses his teeth for all sorts of things, plus his back claws. His front claws only caused us trouble. We're both happier now that he doesn't have them because there are a lot less restrictions on what he isn't allowed to do. I only have 9 toenails and my missing toenail doesn't hurt me at all, btw.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Does declawing just remove the claw, or is it a matter of removing the end part of the digit at the joint?
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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My cats are not and never will be declawed. They're young enough where they're learning that weekly nail clippings are status quo and not to be fought. And they get nummies for good behavior during clipping sessions. Yes, my living room curtains are rapidly becoming lace-edged, but ya know what? Curtains are easily replaceable. And we've got some interesting scratches from when a kitten will suddenly freak out when they realize they're being held within range of a running bathtub... They don't claw at my chairs (I don't have an upholstered couch), and they love their scratching posts. It's simply a matter of giving them other things to mark up and keeping the nails trimmed to reduce actual damage.
Spaying and neutering not only makes future generations impossible, but it also calms future behaviors. Less fighting, less (or no) spraying and marking territory. And I've seen reports that it improves their overall life expectancy by as much as 30% and reduces the incidence of reproductive-organ diseases. (I don't know how much is removed during surgery so I don't know if the reduced incidence is simply because of a lack of tissue to be infected or a lack of hormones to trigger the disease)
As for litters, I wish I could get that into the heads of the owner of the mother of my two. Mine were litter #9. Four total, only my two have survived. She just had #10. Mine are now 6 months old. The other two queens in that house are her daughter and granddaughter (not by that daughter, though). Both of them also had litters at roughly the same time. So there are three adults and fifteen less-than-four-week-old kittens in that house. But because they aren't intentionally breeding as an income opportunity, they aren't violating any laws... yet.
And CT, declawing takes off the entire first knuckle and sometimes the first joint. It would be like taking the first nearly inch of your finger. Some cats recover without complications, other cats' bodies try to regrow that bone and tissue and it doesn't grow back straight, which can be crippling.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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A cat without claws is like a human child with no fingers on their hands. Sure, they will damage your furniture a lot less that way, and be easier to control, but there is some essential part of being human that makes hands and fingers extremely important. The same is true of cats and claws. I think trimming is fine, and those glued-on plastic caps are fine (and look cool), but not declawing. I agree with others here who have posted that if you can't manage a pet with claws, then a cat is the wrong choice for you.
It's not just removing fingernails, it's amputating fingers. It's just wrong.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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My cat was declawed when my parents got leather furniture. It was either declaw her or get rid of her. I felt bad for her while she was healing because she was obviously in pain, and would just lay on my bed for days at a time (during the healing process we moved the food and litter closer to my bedroom).
After a few weeks, though, she was back to her old self. She was a mostly indoor cat as she was getting older, so her routine didn't change much. Animals have gone through much worse -- amptutations, paralysis, etc -- and still lived full lives. We still cared about her enough to keep her and take care of her.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ok, extending the human analogy... Why not just spay your little girl too? You won't have to worry about her getting pregnant or catching a social disease. You'll save money on hygene products. Heck she might even live longer since she won't die from complications of childbirth or from breast, ovarian or uterin cancer (or other diseases.)
And the world is overpopulated anyway.
I don't think the human analogy supports a "Declawing is inhumane, but Spaying/Nuetering is fine" argument.
I still don't see why one is ok but the other isn't. They are both done for our convenience.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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I've been thinking about getting my cat beheaded to help with his behavioral problems. Are there any complications/long term effects? What should I look for when choosing a veterinarian/executioner?
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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The shredding carpet and furniture you referred to, Pixiest? Cats do that because they need to stretch certain muscles in their legs, and without their claws, they can't do so nearly as effectively, if at all.
Posts: 143 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Pixiest, I don't neuter for my convenience, but for the health, welfare, and best interest of my cats. If I did not neuter we would quickly (in a few years) have a population of hundreds of cats, as many as I could afford to feed. I could give little or no individual attention or affection to them, and indeed would probably not recognize each of them individually. I could not afford immunizations for them, or veterinary care. Basic sanitation would be severely compromized, as my available hours for cleaning vomited hairballs, scooping boxes, doing laundry to wash cat beds, scrubbing their eating areas, etc. are finite.
They would fight among themselves, as resources were limited and those not strong enough to beat out the competition would die. The ones left alive would be severly injured, half-starved, disease-ridden, and quite unhappy compared to my pampered bunch I have now. As it is, the solid contentment around here is palpable.
Another thing I could do is kill a whole lot of kittens. Hundreds and hundreds year after year.
Both those solutions suck, so I neuter.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Syn posted the sites I was going to link to, and Goody and Tatiana said what I was going to say.
Cats are trainable. People don't think of them as being as trainable as a dog, but they are. You can train a cat to only scratch her scratching post. Or you can use Soft Paws.
Cats use their claws for more than just climbing and defense. Declawing can lead to poorer muscle tone or future joint problems due to altered gait (source). Raina was front-declawed by her former owners, and while she does stretch a lot, she can't do those wonderous full-body stretches that cats are known for. I grieve for her lost toes. Posts: 1805 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote: It said that a lot of declawd cats tend to spray more or pee in places they are not allowed ot pee in.
Often because litter is too rough on their feet. If you had sore toes, wouldn't you prefer to walk on carpet than gravel?
Posts: 1805 | Registered: Jun 1999
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Out of curiosity, where do dewclaws fit into this whole debate? (Do cats even have them? I know it's an occasional mammilian feature.)
Removing them is effecitvely removing an entire finger, and is also prohibited in other countries. And it isn't even done so much out of convinience as a "just in case" situation.
Posts: 1368 | Registered: Sep 2002
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I think one significant difference between spay/neutering and declawing is that there are quality of life issues for the cat involved in the former and the latter is both more cripling to the cat and done solely to improve the quality of life of the owners, not the cat.
For the record, though, I'm mostly ambivalent about what other people choose. I, myself, though choose to not have my cats declawed. I'm a little lazy about trimming nails, (and therefore take responsibility myself for any damage), and I give them plenty of other things to scratch on.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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I've never seen a dewclaw on a cat. (At least nothing I've known by that name.)
quote:dew·claw ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dklô, dy-) n. A vestigial digit or claw not reaching the ground and found on the feet of certain mammals.
I don't know of anything vestigial on my cats, and I'm relatively certain there is no external part of them that doesn't reach the ground on a regular basis. (I have very active cats.)
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:I'm relatively certain there is no external part of them that doesn't reach the ground on a regular basis. (I have very active cats.)
No comment, just that this made me giggle hysterically as it so reminds me of my two... I'm constantly having to step over them and readjust balance and so on...
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Well, I still think my cat is perfectly healthy and happy without his front claws. I suppose I should mention that I'm allergic to him, and his scratches are like painful mosquito bites. They even swell more than a mosquito bite but the swelling only lasts about four hours. He's a very stubborn cat and when he had front claws he would dig them in on my body constantly in order to climb up my body or hold on more tightly. He may be trainable in some ways but nothing seemed to fix the painful claw problem until his surgery.
I still think we're both happier this way. Seeing him stretch, jump, open cabinets and drawers and tear around the house convinces me he isn't particularly crippled.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I haven't read this whole thread but one of the major reasons most animal rights groups believe that declawing cats is inhumane is because they lose one of their greatest deffences. If your cat gets out of your house for some reason, and is approached by a large dog, their instinct is to hit the nose with a front paw (I think we have video tape proving this one, but it was our own dog and the cat was new to the household). If a cat with no front claws hits the dogs nose, it won't be hurt and will likely think "ooh I can play too, bounce bounce bounce."
The vet clinic I worked at last summer does not perform declaws, and will reccomend against it, mostly for that reason. The vet will perform other "inhumane" opperations, that will not affect the animal's defences (the most common of those being tail docking, which many people are against).
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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See, now tail docking I am vehemently against. There is no other reason than the aesthetic. I can't believe people will dismember their pets to make them look better (and in my opinion, it does not look better). The same goes with clipping ears. I just can't believe people do that.
Declawing I can understand. I don't do it with my cats, but my mom does, and I can understand.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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I was looking up pictures of cat claw anatomy to post something for KarlEd on what a dew claw is, and I found this veterinarian's page on the technical aspects of declawing a cat. I can't vouch for its truth, but man, if it is correct, I can see why it could be painful for years after, even if the cat adapted.
According to these diagrams at least, a cat walks on his or her toes. When you remove the last phalanx of the digit, the pressure is being placed on a bone end that is not designed for it -- no intrinsic fascial padding, no intrinsic balance of the musculoskeletal system to support it, etc.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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well, if we declaw absolutely every cat maybe we can force a species adaptment to declawing. That's pretty much how we got house cats in the first place (by forcing species change not declawing).
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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I think vonk's suggesting those better able to deal with the declawing would be selected for. I don't see any practical way to carry out the plan, and suspect cats would also continue to be cared for enough that the selection pressure was minimal.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I'm not totally for or against docking tails (I am against trimming ears). Both have been standard in breeds for several hundred years.
There originally was a purpose to docking tails, and I'll explain it in the breeds I'm most familiar with. Terriers are bred to go to ground, terrier is from the Latin "terra" to ground (though I still believe it has something to do with terrify, ignore that, it's my high school Latin and childhood experiences conflicting). In going to ground, they go into a hole to find some sort of animal, dependant on their breed, rats, badgers, up to bear. This was to help the farmers control the pest problems. If the farmer feels he needs to remove the terrier from the hole, mid hunt (because they're not giving up, I guarantee it), they grab for the "hand sized" tail. The next day, this same terrier is off to a conformation show, and the standard is born.
Dog people tend to be stubborn and when it comes to a standard, they're very slow to change.
I don't have much experience with breeds that clip ears, so I don't know why it was originally done, at least from breed to breed, it could have been purely aesthetic for all I know. It is done less frequently now though, and as far as I know is not required in the US to show, it isn't permitted in the UK for show purposes.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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ok fugu, then we have to declaw all of the cats and kill off the ones that don't adapt. In a couple of generations, they will all be adaptable to declawings and our precious curtains and sofas will be safe.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant the change would be easily adapting to declawing without negative side effects, not that they wouldn't have claws at all.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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"It hurts them years later" is valid. If it's true. The problem with animal rights in general is there's so much disinformation passed around by the passionate.
I don't think "It robs them of their defenses" is particularly valid, at least not in the case of my own cats. They're terrified of an open door to the outside. They will never leave on their own and we will not throw them out.
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Then Pix, I'm not totally apposed to you doing it. And I believe you could know what you are talking about, some people will make the decision to declaw the cat, saying that it never goes out, and would bother them less without claws, then after that is done, it pees on the carpet, it bothers the baby, something and they get rid of the cat, hopefully they find it a nice home that will not let it go out. But likely the cat will go to a shelter, or be dumped or something, and there we go, defences gone.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Oh my hubby would never let me get the cats declawed. I was just curious as to why it was wrong.
If we were going to get rid of them we would have done it long ago for leaving us stinky presents on the floor, in our discarded clothing, on the blankets... Every day is Easter at my house... =(
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My cat is listed in my will and my family knows what to do for the cat if something happened to me. Also I have a three page handout on my cat's likes and needs that goes with him anywhere. And he hates the outdoors too. Silly cat. I got him too late to get him used to being outdoors on a harness.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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See and you're a responsible pet owner. I like you. I've just seen my fair share that isn't, probably because of where I've worked and volunteered.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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We started with a harness on the porch when our cat was 16 weeks old, supposedly still in the window of new experiences (according to a feline behaviorist at Purdue that ends at 20 weeks), and he won't do it. He would love to go outside, though has never without at least two of us with him, but he won't move on the harness and leash (this was good for 4-H shows).
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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"Ok, extending the human analogy... Why not just spay your little girl too? You won't have to worry about her getting pregnant or catching a social disease. You'll save money on hygene products. Heck she might even live longer since she won't die from complications of childbirth or from breast, ovarian or uterin cancer (or other diseases.)
And the world is overpopulated anyway"
I actually have less of a problem with this than I do with de-clawing cats! Especially if we do it to the boys too.
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: I don't have much experience with breeds that clip ears, so I don't know why it was originally done, at least from breed to breed, it could have been purely aesthetic for all I know. It is done less frequently now though, and as far as I know is not required in the US to show, it isn't permitted in the UK for show purposes.
I've heard that it's because those breeds were originally used for boar hunting, and the ears (and tails as well, I think) were clipped as puppies because they tended to get hurt the most by boars. I got this from my brother in law who had a (non-clipped) Great Dane for a while.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ok, I was thinking in fighting situations (as the case with the bull and pitt families), but boar hunting also makes sense to me. I'm not sure the case for Schnauzers and some of the others. If anyone has any actual intrest in this one, I'll do research on it.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Ok, extending the human analogy... Why not just spay your little girl too? You won't have to worry about her getting pregnant or catching a social disease. You'll save money on hygene products. Heck she might even live longer since she won't die from complications of childbirth or from breast, ovarian or uterin cancer (or other diseases.)
And the world is overpopulated anyway.
I don't think the human analogy supports a "Declawing is inhumane, but Spaying/Nuetering is fine" argument.
I still don't see why one is ok but the other isn't. They are both done for our convenience.
Not having all of your parts will not keep you from catching a social disease.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I work at a vet clinic that takes the welfare of its clients' pets very seriously. This is also a clinic that performs ear crops, dewclaw removals, tail docks, and cat declaws. I think that declawing your cat simply because you don't feel like dealing with scratches and ripped furniture is an unfortunate and unnecessary way of dealing with something that is an inconvenience to you. However, many people don't have a lot of options. We see a lot of clients that are at their wits' end trying to figure out what to do about their cat's destructive behavior, and declawing is a last resort. Soft Paws don't work for everyone, and neither do scratching posts or other methods of deterring a cat from clawing up the furniture. People love their cats, but you have to look at this from a practical aspect. If the surgery is performed correctly, and the post-op care is monitored carefully, most cats live their lives just fine without their claws. They are happy and the owners are happy too. Part of the responsibility of owning a pet is being able to make choices for that animal about how it can live its life and coexist with humans in the most peaceful and successful way possible, and sometimes those choices aren't easy to make, but most of the time they are for the best. I just don't think it's fair to judge a person by the decisions they make until you fully realize their situation. I see tons of people that I just want to throttle for being stupid about their animals, but there are many more who really do care, and just want the best for their pets.
Posts: 1225 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Honest question, no tomfoolery: Isn't there a way to chemically prevent the claws from growing instead of amputating a section of bone? That seems fairly extreme. I was always under the impression that chemically declawing was the processed used. Knowing how drastic declawing is, I'm not so hot for it anymore.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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