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So roughly 4 months after the first visit (and roughly 2 months after my visit to an LDS Church), I have the missionaries coming again on Tuesday. Actually only one of the two that initially came is coming; the other got transferred to another place or something. I've got some questions lined up for them again, so I think it'll be interesting. I'll post here what happens since I'm sure someone else finds it interesting. Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I would love to hear about your experience with the missionaries. I grew up in a very small town in the Bible Belt and have never experienced any sort of missionaries. I have always just wanted to talk to other people who have really been trained to talk about and promote their faith. If I weren't a Catholic nun who has absolutely no intention of converting I would invite them here.
Posts: 340 | Registered: Mar 2003
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They wouldn't mind talking with you about their faith even if you have no intention of converting. It's good for interfaith relations that we know more about one another. Hopefully they'll tract into you some day, or you can go to www.mormon.org and look around if you are interested. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I agree with Tatiana. Last time, they were just glad that I was willing to talk to them (even more glad that I had questions for them about their religion). They may still want to convert you, but you don't have to by any means. You can just talk and tell them you were interested in hearing their ideas.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I believe that there are many former missionaries on this site. They seem to be very open to talking to people about their experiences and their church.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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They skipped my house. Hit every house on the street but mine. Could it have been the mezuzah? I felt rather left out.
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katdog, I don't think the monastery would phase them. You would know if it might make folks around you uncomfortable, but don't worry about making the missionaries uncomfortable. I think it's nearly impossible.
pfresh, definitely let us know how it goes. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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katdog- While I was a missionary, I was invited to visit a nun who lived in a convent. It was a delightful and memorable experience for my companion and me. We had a wonderful discussion and then she gave us a tour around the grounds. I imagine that many missionaries would enjoy such an experience.
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Narnia, will do. Expect a report back here once they leave (which could be anywhere from 7:30PM to 8PM).
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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On my mission in Italy, I visited with priests on several occasions...no nuns or monks, though--I would have enjoyed it, but the closest I got was a Dominican monk who snuck up on us while we were visiting the Church of St. Dominic in Bologna and started yelling at us in English.
Posts: 1068 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I found a card from one of our missionaries (he sent it after he was home) when I was cleaning out my desk this morning. Such a nice guy.
We had maybe ten come through all together, and there was only one that gave off a "jerk" vibe. Which, if you as me, is pretty darned fine odds. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Report time. First thing, I busted my toe on my table. Hurts a lot. But that's just a minor complaint
So I had prepared a sort of mental list of questions to ask or subjects to discuss (I have yet to let a Mormon missionary give me a lesson). Today I had one of the big questions as my first one; one I knew that unbalanced me just as a regular Christian and which I knew might keep them off balance at first.
The question is based off two basic assumptions. First, the assumption that God is omnipotent and can do whatever He wants. Second, that Jesus had to die to atone for our sins. The question is this: If God is truly omnipotent, then why did Jesus have to die to atone for our sins?
The answer I came to just by my own line of reasoning was this: that there must be some higher restraint (a celestial restraint if you will) on God that sort of made him do it that way. Either that or God is jerk and just let his son die for it rather than doing something else about it.
The Mormons (1 missionary I had met before, 1 missionary I hadn't met before, and 1 guy I knew who I went to church with once and e-mailed quite often) were sort of off set by my question. There was silence for a while. They weren't sure how to answer it. They dug through scriptures and stuff. In the end, they sort of came to my conclusion (using scripture for a basis). They said that God when creating everything set up certain laws. To be perfectly just, God must obey those laws himself (or else it all falls apart). In this case, there was a law set about the atonement for sin. While there may have been a way God could get around it without the sacrifice of his son (a way we might not see or know), the sacrifice of Jesus was the best or most optimum way of doing this.
After that, we discussed faith and the fact that faith usually precedes miracles. I forget why we discussed this, but it did come up.
Then we started talking about faith inside you. The guy who knew me made mention of something I had talked to him about over e-mail (I can go into it here if someone wants me to). He said that that example showed that I had a small light of faith in me. I just needed to pray earnestly and have true desire for knowledge. That those coupled with my faith would give me the answer to such questions.
Then we talked about the problems with my family (again the guy who knew me brought it up). Both my parents and my brother (although not my sister) are hardcore against the Mormon church. My brother mocks it based on broad generalizations of the religion, and my parents just seem to see the church as a cult. I tried to talk to my father about my interest in the Mormon church. He said that the only reason I was interested in it was to find a girl with similar values as my own (no smoking, no drinking, no sex before marriage). That thought had crossed my own mind, but when he said it it set in my mind. I told the missionaries this and they nodded. They said that I just needed to read the Book of Mormon more, pray more, and such. That if the Mormon Church was right for me, God would reveal that to me.
After that (since it had been slightly over an hour), they decided it was about time to leave. They made an appointment to talk to me before church on Sunday (and for me to possibly go to church with them afterwards). So that will be round 3 with the missionaries.
Hopefully this post will be meaningful or something to someone out there. I find it kind of fun to chronicle my adventures with the Mormons. Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: Hopefully this post will be meaningful or something to someone out there. I find it kind of fun to chronicle my adventures with the Mormons. [Big Grin]
Besides being intellectually stimulating and fun, are you getting anything out of this? Are you interested in perhaps joining the religion? Or are you just enjoying the discussion?
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I'm interested in the church and may join at some point. At the same time, it's just interesting to discuss and listen to other ideas.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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Awesome! I had the same thing happen to me that I was curious about the church for one reason initially (curiosity about these odd beliefs ) and then as I learned more, the things that I had thought already about many things (like your question about God and Christ and omnipotence) were exactly what the church taught. The next thing that happened is that other questions I had never asked were answered in ways that seemed very right to me. The further I investigated the church, the more things clicked and I just felt way down deep that yes, this is true, all this is real, to the extent that we can understand now, this is how things really are. I knew without knowing how I knew. It all made sense and explained so much to me.
So as you continue, you should expect to feel more and more sure until you won't need to wonder or ask anyone else if it's right for you, you'll just know. The thing to do at this point is to continue to ask questions in your mind, to pray about everything, and to listen for the still small voice. Also, feel totally free to ask anyone LDS any question you might have about the church, or doctrines. Maybe ask more than one person, to get different perspectives. The missionaries are the ones who are trained to answer, but anyone should be able to tell you their view.
When I was investigating, several people, particularly Emily Milner, and Samuel Bush and his wife Vivian, answered many of my questions very well indeed. I was impressed not so much by their logic as the spirit of their replies. Always, the love was there, and the feeling of wholeness, and the ring of truth. Their conviction came through, and the strength of their experience in the gospel.
Listen with your heart as well as your mind and spirit, and I expect you will hear the same thing. Good luck with your journey. I'm so glad that you have had the courage to take the steps you've taken so far. I know that God will lead you on the path he wants you to walk.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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LDS scripture makes it pretty clear that God has to follow the rules or he ceases to be God. (I assume that part of being God is the fact that He never *will* go against the rules.)
The idea here is that there truly was no other way, and that this was the plan from the begining. We believe that we lived with God as spirit beings before birth and the plan was laid out before us then, and it follows that pretty much everyone born on earth approved of it.
Some say this means that we believe in a God that is not omnipotent. I understand this line of reasoning, it makes sense. We believe that God has all power that it is possible to have and therefore no one has more power than He has. Not the classic definition of "omnipotent," but if it is impossible to truly be omnipotent, the word isn't very useful in that classic definition. I have little problem with using the word to mean "having all power that is possible to have."
We do believe that God is omniscient.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Omniscient was never up for debate. I just had a hard time saying omnipotent since I was using the classic definition (all powerful, can basically do anything). I understand though what you are saying. You are sort of emphasizing what the missionaries already said. It's good stuff though.
As for Tatiana's response, a lot of people said similar things back in November or so when I first started looking into the church. Things go slowly with me, particularly because of the family issue. We'll see how it goes though.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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Go as slowly as you need to. This is important stuff so resist any pressure to rush things.
The family issues are tough and I wish there was a easy answer. When my great great grandmother joined the Mormon church, she came home from her baptism to find all of her possessions in the middle of the street. Her Father never spoke with her again. I think this extreme would be pretty uncommon in a 21st century American family but that doesn't mean things will be easy. Most modern American families will eventually come to respect an individuals choice with time but some do not.
I'm curious about your Dad's assessment that you are only interested in the Mormon Church for girls. Is this purely hypothetical or do you (have you) had Mormon girl friends?
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Purely hypothetical. He knows the type of girl I want to date (and eventually marry), and he knows that the Mormon church would probably higher number of them. So it's a hypothetical thing. I haven't had any Mormon girlfriends to my knowledge.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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pfresh, one book I enjoyed was C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity. Of course he wasn't LDS, so I don't agree with everything he said in it; but he made a good explanation of why we need a Savior in the first place.
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I'll be sure to check that out the next time I'm out at the bookstore (which'll probably be Thursday). Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I had a lot of objections from my family too. It's not a happy thing. But gradually over time they've come to accept it, and don't seem to harbor any grudges or bitterness now. I believe with time they may even be glad of it. I think it's probably obvious to them that I'm a better person now, stronger, happier, and more determined and committed to do what's right, and to make a positive difference in the world, and in all my spheres of influence.
One thing that really helped me a lot with family issues was an article I read in the Ensign a while back about how to deal with issues that arise from having family who aren't in the church. It was intended for people who are already members, but it was just great! I expect it would help investigators too. I followed several of the suggestions and they helped a lot. Let me see if I can find that article on the church website and link you to it.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I'm not having much luck in my website search. Maybe I'll just flip through my paper copies to see if I can come up with the issue it was in. That should help me locate it online. I would like to read it again, too. I might find some more good suggestions I can try. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Just to give another perspective, I have family members who have a problem with the LDS church. I've been going to the LDS church since I was very young whenever my mother took us, but couldn't be baptized since my father was opposed to the church (violently so). I and my sister were baptized after my father had brain aneurisms, wasn't expected to live or have any brains if he did, so he could no longer stand in the way. My sister has long since joined another church and my mother - well, she never was a very good member.
My oldest brother is atheist and the second brother is baptist. Baptist brother things - and says quite vocally at every available opportunity - that I will burn in hell, I'm a satan worshipper, my church is a cult, and I (personally and specifically me) am The AntiChrist. Atheist brother doesn't care - he gets picked on for being atheist. Sister and I don't discuss religion, which is perfectly fine. We just respect that we have differing beliefs.
Other family members - aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents - have ranged wildly from having respect for what I believe to the whole burning in hell bit. Some are vocal, vicious, and downright mean and nasty. Others are very much live and let live.
I'm just pointing out that the happiness scenario that some people have of family members coming around doesn't always happen. If you reach the point where you're serious about being baptized, you need to understand and prepare for this possibility.
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My aunt in Houston works in a dental office right next to the mission office for her area. One day, she met the elders on the street and excitedly asked them if they knew my brother, who was also a missionary. In Mexico City.
They said no. And then asked if she was interested in learing about the church.
She said absolutely not. Emphatically. She thinks the church is wildly wrong and we are all horribly misguided. However, she loves us very much and wants us to be happy in it. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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My father's initial reaction when I mentioned it in a sort of oblique way was a) "you're an adult and can make your own decisions about your life, but I don't really agree with this one" and b) "are you sure you are looking at that church for the right reasons?". That's not a horribly negative reaction or anything. I think my mother and brother will have worse reactions if I ever have to tell them about it. Not really looking forward to that if it has to happen.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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That's cool pfresh, thanks for the chronicle.
I had a thought about your question about God and the reason for an Atonement. What beverly said about God following the rules is absolutely supported by the scriptures.
So what's the rule? Mormon doctrine teaches that we have the ability to become like God and that this life is a time to be tested and tried that we might learn and progress. This life is only the beginning and if we 'pass', we'll continue on the journey to becoming Gods ourselves.
Well, we can't 'pass' and return to the presence of God having sinned. Being physical beings here on this earth, it's impossible for us NOT to sin. We can't pay the price for sin even if we do the very best we can. Hm. Problem. This is a problem that even God can't get around, no matter how merciful He is. Justice must be done and we have to fully pay the price. We can't. So, there had to be an ultimate holy sacrifice to pay off justice and make up for our human weaknesses.
God is perfectly just and in being perfectly just, He would have to damn us all to hell fire eternal just for being human. That's why we need the atonement.
This is pretty much the same thing other folks have said, I just wanted to expand a bit. Mere Christianity is a fantastic book, I'd love to hear what you think of it.
Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:This is a problem that even God can't get around, no matter how merciful He is. Justice must be done and we have to fully pay the price.
The problem I have with this is that I'm apparently more powerful than God. When somebody wrongs me, I have the ability to forgive them without a blood sacrifice.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Yes you do. But you don't have the responsibility for upholding Order in all of creation. Your forgiveness, or lack thereof affects nothing of your offender's eternal state.
A simple analogy follows. Say for example someone beats you up badly. You have the power to forgive the offender. The prosecutor however must enforce the law and send the person to prison. Would you say you are more powerful than the prosecutor in determining this person's fate? Please don't stretch the analogy further or deeper than it was intended.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Bao, I know you threw a caveat in there, but the analogy doesn't apply. There are very few cases where the prosecuter can bring a case, without the victim's [EDIT: explicit] approval.
For instance, in the Dick Cheney shooting situation, which seems to be exactly like your analogy, the victim didn't wish to press charges, and was willing to "forgive" VP Cheney; as a result no charges were filed directly related to the assault itself (a minor violation was issued due to a lack of proper licensing, but that was technically independent of the incident itself). In this case, the victim WAS more powerful than any prosecuter in determining the fate of the transgressor.
I do understand your larger point about responsibility and such, though. Your analogy, with caveat, doesn't seem to really illuminate your original point, IMO.
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I think the explanation (involving justice) that the Mormon missionaries gave sort of made sense to me. If there was no justice, then there'd really be no sense of right and wrong. If there's no right and wrong, there's no happiness and/or sadness. If there's no happiness and sadness, there's no real life. Life, as they sort of said, is about the oppositions that exist. Happiness and sadness, good and evil, right and wrong. It's like there's a long chain, and if you break one part of the chain the whole rest of it falls apart. At least that's how I took it. *shrugs* I could be totally off.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I think that's one way to look at it. I don't want to mess with the current tone of this thread, but you may want to go through each of your "Ifs" and decide if they really are contingent on each other, and if so, are there different ways to decide which and how they are all contingent. From an non-theistic, or even an existentialist POV, The happy/sad could be argued to not follow the right/wrong. From other POVs, including theological ones, you could argue that perhaps you have the Justice and right/wrong reversered. Not saying you will find these ideas satisfying, or correct to you, but think more on it.
And this is aside from the fact that there are POV that grow out from completely different first principles.
I've always thought that true omniscience implies omnipotence.
If you truly know everything, you necessarily would know how to do anything. There's a universal law which is stopping you from doing it? Then you know how to get around that. You also know how to remove that law. If you know how to do something, you can do it.
But if you define omnipotence as "having all power that is possible to have", you can similarly define omniscience as "knowing everything it is possible to know" and get around this.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:But you don't have the responsibility for upholding Order in all of creation. Your forgiveness, or lack thereof affects nothing of your offender's eternal state.
I have the responsibility for upholding order in all of the areas that I have dominion over. Forgiveness does nothing to deteriorate this order, and quite frequently it creates order. Why does God's forgiveness in areas he has dominion over create chaos?
quote: If there was no justice, then there'd really be no sense of right and wrong. If there's no right and wrong, there's no happiness and/or sadness. If there's no happiness and sadness, there's no real life.
I don't buy the premise that without justice there's no sense of right and wrong. Justice only means something after you've established what right and wrong is. I think that pain and growth are better prerequisites to right and wrong. It's wrong to beat up my neighbor because it causes him unneeded pain, not because of some vague notion of justice.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:But you don't have the responsibility for upholding Order in all of creation. Your forgiveness, or lack thereof affects nothing of your offender's eternal state.
I have the responsibility for upholding order in all of the areas that I have dominion over. Forgiveness does nothing to deteriorate this order, and quite frequently it creates order. Why does God's forgiveness in areas he has dominion over create chaos?
Here's an idea, although I don't know how it fits into Mormon (or any religion's) teachings.
Suppose that God created the laws of the universe consisting of both the physical laws (like gravity) and the moral laws (like justice). If God's moral laws are breakable, then that would mean the physical laws would be breakable as well, since both are created by God and depend upon God's infallibility. The entire order of the universe relies on the premise that none of God's laws can be broken.
(This idea reminds me vaguely of Dogma)
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Suppose that God created the laws of the universe consisting of both the physical laws (like gravity) and the moral laws (like justice). If God's moral laws are breakable, then that would mean the physical laws would be breakable as well, since both are created by God and depend upon God's infallibility. The entire order of the universe relies on the premise that none of God's laws can be broken.
I understand that premise. Under it, God and us humans are bound by the same rules. That is why I don't understand how it's a slight of Justice for God to forgive somebody, but it's not when I do the same thing.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bok- Change the charge then, I'm sure someone can come up with something, arson maybe? IDK. Anyone can come up with a number of analogies to refute mine, thats not the point. The point was to use an idea somewhat familiar in Amanecer's experience to describe an theological/eternal principle. I realize my analogy was lacking (due in part to my own ignorance of the criminal justice system), but I think you see the point I was trying to make.
quote: I have the responsibility for upholding order in all of the areas that I have dominion over. Forgiveness does nothing to deteriorate this order, and quite frequently it creates order. Why does God's forgiveness in areas he has dominion over create chaos?
Amanecer- I had written a lengthy reply to this, but then stopped. It was not my intention to get into an argument over religious matters, but simply to answer your question. We could go back and forth on this all day, and get nowhere. If you're interested in what I think on the matter, there is a fascinating speech written by Cleon Skousen called the Atonement(nondoctrinal) that is pretty close in line with what I think and can do a much better job of explaining than me bantering back and forth with you. I'd be happy to read something that explains your position if you would like. Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: I understand that premise. Under it, God and us humans are bound by the same rules. That is why I don't understand how it's a slight of Justice for God to forgive somebody, but it's not when I do the same thing.
Okay, here's me trying another hit at it. There's the idea that nothing unclean can come into God's sight. This is what I'd dub as a celestial law of sorts, something that is a limit on God. God needs a way to get around this law. Maybe he has several options of how to do this (how to forgive someone for being unclean and thus allow that person to be in God's presence). Maybe he doesn't. It's hard to say since we don't really know about God and what sort of options are open within the system of rules that are in place. Sacrificing his son is apparently the best option (or maybe the lesser evil) to do this.
The real question then is why is there this celestial law in place, why is there a limit on God. The only explanation I came up with on my own was that it was a side effect of creating life. Life as it exists could only exist if certain things were in place, and these laws must have been one of them. The Mormons offered some similar ideas, at one point one of them said something that made me think of deism and the idea of God as a clockmaker.
I don't know. Maybe I'm not getting anywhere with this. I've come to terms with the idea of necessary sacrifice though myself, and I think that was part of the reason I asked the Mormons the question in the first place.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I think you're right, and I think those are good explanations. I think you're getting somewhere. But I don't think you should listen too much to what people say on these forums. They come up with odd ideas that lead to downward spirals. You are making more sense than anyone else on here.
Posts: 33 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I think people are looking to narrowly at the atonement. While I believe that somehow Christ's sacrifice fullfills a universial law of justice, I don't think this is the only or even the most imporant result of Christ's sacrifice. I have found the atonement of Jesus Christ has an great enable power which makes it possible for us to change. Without it we could never be truly cleaned from our sins, because we could never change fully enough to be new again.
To me the most amaizing power of God, is the power to redeem. By that I mean the power to take bad stuff and turn it into good stuff. The sacrifice of Jesus is the most obvious example of this. God sent his son into the world to love us and teach us, and we not only rejected him, we tortured him to death. What could be more horrible. Yet through the amaizing power of God, that act of evil has been transformed into the most wonderous blessing for all humanity. To be redeemed isn't simply to be forgiven, it is to be changed. Redemption is a processes in which the bad parts of the individual, through the work and faith of the individual and the power of God, are transformed to good.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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I would like to add that if God is omnipotent in the literal sense that he has ALL POWER, that necessarily means that no other being can have any power.
For example, if you believe that humans have free will, that we have the power to resist or even defy the will of God, well then God can't have the power to force us. The two are mutually exclusive. A God who had ALL POWER, would be very undesirable from my perspective since that would mean that none of us could power over anything at all, even our own hearts and minds.
I prefer to think of God as optimally powerful rather than all powerful. For me it is enough to realize that God has enough power to redeem me (and everyone else) if I choose that path.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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) and then as I learned more, the things that I had thought already about many things (like your question about God and Christ and omnipotence) were exactly what the church taught. The next thing that happened is that other questions I had never asked were answered in ways that seemed very right to me. The further I investigated the church, the more things clicked and I just felt way down deep that yes, this is true, all this is real, to the extent that we can understand now, this is how things really are. I knew without knowing how I knew. It all made sense and explained so much to me. 
