posted
My brother called me last night, just before 10. He said, "I have a question for you." He sounded a little irked, so I didn't respond, "I have an answer", like I usually do.
"How many spaces are you supposed to put after a period?"
I paused, because I've had this issue come up myself. I said, "Well, it used to be two."
He paused, and then erupted with, "That's the stupidest thing in the world to change! Everyo-"
"Well," I tried to explain, "on web pag-"
"HTML is no reason to change something like this!"
I could tell he was on a roll, so I just said, "For what it's worth, I think it's dumb, and I still use two spaces."
He thought about that, and said, "Okay. But it is dumb."
Having reached an agreement on this important issue, we ended the conversation.
So. Does anyone want to weigh in here? I'm 44 years old, and I was taught (in high school typing, probably, in which I got a C, or maybe a C+), that you put one space after commas and semicolons, and two after periods and colons. And also, I think, that you capitalize after a colon. I don't capitalize after colons, and I don't use two spaces after them, either, because it looks weird to me. But I do put two spaces after a period. And it was only relatively recently that I was told (by the editor of the anthology where my story "The Last Minute" appeared) that the rule is now to use only one space.
Reading between the lines of my brother's rant, it sounded an awful lot like his kids are being taught the one-space rule in school.
Does anyone know why this rule has been changed? And what the source is for said rule? Is there some dark cabal, lurking in the halls outside of grammar school classes, cackling madly as they think about what rules they can change to drive parents crazy?
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
It's mostly due to the fact that word processors these days increase the size of the space after a period automatically. However I don't know anything specific about when the switch occurred.
Edit: Upon typing this out I decided I had best measure to make sure, and it really doesn't look like the space is any bigger. So my new position is going to be, *shrug*
Posts: 959 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I was also taught two spaces after the end of a sentence and one space after punctuation within a sentence. Capitalization only on proper names and the first letter of a sentence (and by extension, defined terms in a legal document because by defining, you've given that term a proper name for the purposes of the document). Capitalization of quotes depend upon the context and extent of the quote.
My teenager says that they weren't officially taught one way or the other, but that the commonly accepted method in her school is single space regardless of usage.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
There've always been stylistic schools that held one space was better. I've usually heard typographic reasons, and I tend to agree that it is more readable. Two spaces breaks things up too much.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I use the two space rule. It's what I was taught as a child, and now I follow it. Just seems natural. *shrug*
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
WHAT? They can change that?! I have always used the two space rule, was taught the two space rule, and never ever heard of it decreasing. Weird. Sad, that was perhaps the only grammar rule I actually knew by the book, as opposed to knowing it instinctually.
Posts: 3936 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I've always done two spaces after a period, one after any colon. But I write for the school paper, and they recently requested that everyone only use one space after a period. I thought it was weird, but they do that weird formating where the letters fill the space, whatever that's called, so I guess it makes sense.
Since my habit is two spaces after a period, I see no reason to change it, unless specifically requested.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
As I understand it, back in the days of typesetting by hand, end-of-sentence punctuation was followed by a space that was about one and a half times larger than a regular space. But since typewriters were monospace, it was decided to use two full spaces instead.
But then came electronic typesetting and word processing, which have much better spacing and kerning, so the two-space rule became obsolete. There is no dark cabal—just editors and publishers who decide what they think looks best and then write it down in style guides. The two-space rule was never more than a kluge put in place because of the limitations of typewriters.
Edit: fugu also makes a good point. This is not an issue of grammar but of style, which is far more arbitrary.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
If you look at a print out of a page typed on a computer using modern fonts and someone has followed the two space rule, you can see cascades of extra spaces throughout the page. On a typewriter, the period was in the middle of the space alloted for each character. In computer fonts, it's right beside the preceding character. This eliminates the need for two spaces. On a typewriter, if you only used one space it looked like the period was equidistant from the last letter of the old sentence and the first letter of the new one.
It's a hard habit to break, for those of us who learned how to type on typewriters. But there really is no need for it anymore, and it does in fact look bad when you print out a full page of text. I usually don't notice it on a monitor, only on paper. But kids learning to type in school today certainly should not be taught to use two spaces.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I always use two spaces between sentences. For one, it makes things much more readable. In fact that's one of my (many) gripes with HTML — you have to use " " if you don't want your spaces to be collapsed into one. So even if you do put two spaces after a period it won't show up correctly on the web. Well, without a fancy stylesheet anyway.
Two spaces and a capital letter after a colon, though? That's just wrong.
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Two spaces after a period does not make things more readable. At least, I assume you haven't been having problems reading books, lately .
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
In Microsoft Word, go to Tools/Preferences/Spelling & Grammar/Settings/Spaces between sentences.
This can be set to 1, 2, or don't check. The english teachers I worked with all require the spell checker to be set for 2 spaces, which is still the standard, as far as they were concerned. Microsoft Word does not automatically put two spaces after a period. I'd still recommend using two spaces on your resume and cover letter.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by fugu13: Two spaces after a period does not make things more readable. At least, I assume you haven't been having problems reading books, lately .
I suppose we'd have to look at a study, wouldn't we? Perhaps I went overboard when I used the word "much", but I strongly suspect there is a difference in readability.
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I've always used two spaces...though when formatting my masters thesis they wanted one space. Though, they had a bunch of stupid rules for the formating of my thesis. I found it annoying because I had to have it in APA format for my department, and then a different format for the college. Which is why I hired an editor to format it for the college. Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
I've never in my life seen a professionally published book or article that used 2-spaces, and I've never heard of the rule.
Though I do see many people who do it in discussion groups, much to my annoyance. When I respond to one of these 2-space posts, I always remove the extra spaces. As far as I'm concerned, it's just wasted space.
For the record, I took Typing and English in the (cringing at my ever increasing age) 60's. Back when English teachers were firm but fair, grading was strict, and test questions were always 'essay'.
posted
I strongly suspect that if readability was even somewhat improved by using two spaces, publishers might have caught on at some point.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I use one. I probably learned to put two at some point, but it just flows better for me to only use one.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by fugu13: I strongly suspect that if readability was even somewhat improved by using two spaces, publishers might have caught on at some point.
Perhaps. I did a little googling, and it appears that much of the objection comes from the swaths of whitespace you get when text is justified, as in books and newspapers. That makes some sense, and I'll concede on that point. Then again, almost nothing I write is ever justified (um, yeah).
ElJay had a good point that I missed earlier, that in modern fonts the period is positioned to the left of center. When that is the case, I have no objection to using a single space. But it appears not to be the case for the font used on hatrack, nor indeed for the handful of fonts I just checked in TextEdit, with the possible exception of Helvetica (indeed, in Times the period is slightly to the right of center).
In any case, the links I read (most of which mentioned something about monospace versus proportional fonts, which should have no bearing whatsoever on this issue) simply say you should use one space but provide no justification for it other than that graphic designers say it looks bad to use two spaces. I have yet to be convinced.
So, has there been a study for readability?
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
No idea. It is a relatively hard topic to google for. Also, it would be moderately hard to put together a good study: you'd really have to do one for each of several contexts, you'd need to control in the population for various effects (which they were taught, which they use, what they typically read), et cetera.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I've always used two, and I do think it's more readable. It just seems to help me in parsing where the sentence ends to have more clues there than a single period which is all but invisible. I think it looks better, not worse. And also I usually choose "justified" mode in my documents, so that both edges of the text are aligned. Occasionally if you have a long word starting a line, the line before will look weird and stretched but then I will fix it by rewording the text.
Here on hatrack, I think all whitespace is reduced to one, isn't it?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
No, they usually aren't arbitrary. Some are more based in culture, and some were developed through more explicit processes, but very few were just decided with no reason to go one way more than another. Or if you mean the other semi-plausible definition of arbitrary for your usage, that's only true up to a point, and the point can be very limited in certain contexts. For instance, if preparing a manuscript for publication, what you do with grammar is typically not very decidable by personal preference.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
The doctor told me I was lucky since I usually go well over 30 days, but I usually just wonder what's wrong with me for a week. I wish the number wouldn't vary so much. It's all about consistency.
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
At the publishing company I used to work for, we needed manuscripts to be submitted with one space after the period because our typesetting software would automatically stretch out the space at the end of a sentence (to around one and a half spaces)--having two spaces in the raw manuscript would result in double that.
Posts: 650 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
When using a typewriter (monospaced fonts), use two spaces after a period. When using a word processor (with proportional fonts), only one is needed and two looks unprofessional. The rule changed because the technology changed.
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Originally posted by porcelain girl: All rules, whether stylistic or grammatical, are arbitrary.
Yes, but there's a world of difference between the arbitrariness of syntactical rules and the arbitrariness of stylistic rules.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I know that my version of Microsoft Office puts a squiggly green line if there are too many spaces, but it doesn't automatically correct it, I don't think. I have a background in typesetting and two spaces after a period bugs me in the same way that an errant apostrophe does.
I'm surprised KQ that you learned to use 2 spaces, as young as you are. Have you ever even USED a typewriter, as opposed to a word processor? I have at least two daughters who are older than you that learned to "type" exclusively on computers. This problem should be self correcting as those of us who learned the monospaced version are getting older and out of the work force (okay, it'll be a couple more decades, but still...) Instead, the old rules seem to be perpetuating instead of going away.<sigh>
posted
If I remember right, I'm about the same age as kq, and we had a typewriter when I was a kid. My typing class in junior high also used typewriters, and my teacher insisted on two spaces. I balked at being forced to go along with such an outdated rule, but I went along with it anyway. I'm honestly surprised that anyone still teaches it.
And all I've found so far is that there haven't been any direct studies on the matter. This link and this one go into a little more detail.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I'm younger than KQ, and was taught to use two spaces. I have used a typewriter, but that was long before I learned the two-space rule. Just a few years after learning it, I was told to use one space. *shrug*
Posts: 2149 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Have you ever even USED a typewriter, as opposed to a word processor?
LOL! My teachers required typed papers by 4th grade, and we didn't own a computer until I was in 6th. So yes, I typed my first papers on the same machine my mom used through college!
We were taught the "two space" rule in typing class in HS, where we used word processors most of the time-- but had to individually take turns cycling through on the electric typewriters "so we would know how to use them if we ever encountered them in the business world." (The electrics were a dream after the manual I first typed on!)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: In Microsoft Word, go to Tools/Preferences/Spelling & Grammar/Settings/Spaces between sentences.
That only helps if disabling the abomination of grammar checking isn't the very first thing you do when you install a new instance of Microsoft Word.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Wow, I cannot believe that this is a recent topic What's even more alarming to me, is that I just remembered that I was INDEED taught the two-space rule a long, long time ago. Since I'm only 19, it must've been around 1st or 2nd grade, when we began those type-to-learn thingies in the computer lab.
Somewhere down the river of time, the rule changed to one-space, and I adapted right away without missing a space...er, beat
Wow, I can't believe I forgot that I used to indeed type with two-spaces...I even remember when it changed and I was reprimanded for "doing it wrong." I KNEW it wasn't my fault after all! Posts: 349 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
I learned the two-space rule in 5th grade. We had weekly typing classes, which was a new thing for the whole school at the time. I have used two spaces ever since then thinking it was just the proper way to go about it. I'm 21 now and taking a computer keyboarding class in college for one more filler unit that I needed. The program we are using started off with a prompt saying that the one-space rule is now correct and should be implemented for the class. I had never heard of using one space before. It has made using the program somewhat frustrating. I keep catching myself using two-spaces. Outside of the class, when I'm typing quickly for an essay or a post online, I can't help but put two spaces. It's too instinctual to even think about it when I'm more concerned with what I'm trying to say.
I'm curious as to why I was taught the two-space rule in the first place. It was only about 10 years ago and we were practicing typing with programs on PCs. I've never used a typewriter. That seems very strange to me. I don't know if I'll ever be able to re-program my brain to use only one space...or if I should really even bother.
Posts: 81 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I use two spaces. They just took away hyphens, your not taking the second space away also. What next, fewer commas? (that's a joke, I always put too many commas)
Posts: 1766 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I'm 23. The first I ever heard of "two-spaces after the period" was a little over a year ago, in my last year of college. I had always put one space, and I continue to do so now.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I'm older than at least two-thirds of the people in this thread. I took typing class on IBM Selectric typewriters, and at home I had a manual typewriter. I heard of the two space rule at some point in high school, decided it was asinine, and ignored it. Just like I ignored the no-comma-before-"and"-when-using-nouns-in-a-series rule. I don't think anybody every marked me off on either "mistake."
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by maui babe: I'm surprised KQ that you learned to use 2 spaces, as young as you are. Have you ever even USED a typewriter, as opposed to a word processor? I have at least two daughters who are older than you that learned to "type" exclusively on computers. This problem should be self correcting as those of us who learned the monospaced version are getting older and out of the work force (okay, it'll be a couple more decades, but still...) Instead, the old rules seem to be perpetuating instead of going away.<sigh>
I'm younger than Kqueen (though not much) and was taught the two space rule in elementary school, middle school and again in high school. I never had it commented on while I was in college. It wasn't until I started writing manuscripts that I was told it was no longer correct - much to my shock, as I'd never heard of it being wrong previously.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
When I edited my college's newspaper, I edited out duplicate spaces. But our style manual was "whatever Joe says."
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: ...this one...
This was one of the sites I ran across in my earlier googling. You gotta wonder about taking typesetting advice from someone who uses Arial over Helvetica.
From the article:
quote:One of the next things I realized is that, in general, the spacing after a period will be irrelevant since most fonts used today are proportional. That is, each character is not the same size.
and
quote: Like Amy Gahran, Kathy Gill told me that the current typographic standard for a single space after the period is a reflection of the power of proportionally spaced fonts.
"The only reason that two spaces were used after a period during the 'typewriter' age was because original typewriters had monospaced fonts -- the extra space was needed for the eye to pick up on the beginning of a new sentence. That need is negated w/proportional space type, hence [it is] the typographic standard."
And yet there is no explanation of why this should be the case. If we needed extra space between sentences back in the days of monospace fonts, why don't we now with proportional fonts? What is it exactly about proportional fonts that fixes this problem?
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Two spaces. I'm old. And I learned to type on a manual typewriter - that's what the school had, so that's what we used. Computers didn't happen in schools in those days.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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