posted
******(The thread may contain SPOILERS. You have been warned!)****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I've read the first chapter, which is about 44 pages in my hardback edition. We haven't really set out any guidelines for the discussion, so I'll start my part of it at whim.
These are the primary three questions which I had as I appraoched rereading the novel.
1. Who is this first character presented (Zhang)? What is he like in his inner and outer life?
2. How does the storytelling serve to enforce or represent these characteristics?
3. How does this relate to the world he finds himself in?
I'm still pulling together my thoughts, but I'll post my answers later in the day. Feel free to answer these questions, or pose your own, or take the discussion in an entirely different tangent.
I think it's a freeform sort of Book Club.
[ October 18, 2004, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
[Of note, some people have not had a chance to obtain the book yet, so if we want to delay reading it or just focus on the beginning for now, that's cool by me. I was feeling some obligation to get something up, though. Since I still need to update & bump another thread for Zeugma, I have plenty of other writing to do. And work, too, of course. ]
[ October 10, 2004, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Is anybody reading? I'm about halfway through the first chapter. Unfortunately, I've found myself pretty busy the last several days. I expect to be finished with the chapter tomorrow, and will post some comments then.
posted
I have mine and Tom & Christy have theirs. I've read and written on the first chapter (not posted yet, though), and I'm finishing off the book today. I believe Tom has finished his reread, and I think Noemon has as well.
In talking to Christy last night, I realized how much of the book is slowly, sparsely revealed. Things which happen in the beginning set the stage for later events, and aspects of the characters are revealed in stages. I think it might spoil things too much to discuss the book if you haven't finished it yet, though I still like the idea of chapter-by-chapter discussion. Might be worth waiting until all those participating have finished it.
Thoughts, suggestions, comments?
[ October 12, 2004, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Heh--it was with the express purpose of creating this thread that I came here this morning--I wasn't online all that much this weekend; I was busy taking care of wiring problems in my house (most of which I've solved, but one continues to give me trouble).
I'm also curious who has gotten ahold of a copy, and had time to read it. Right now it's me, Sara, and Space Opera. Anybody else?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Obviously I need to type faster (or, actually, not try to email Christine, post on Hatrack, read Something Positive, and help out three hapless users all at once).
I agree that it would be better not to post spoilers this early on; I think that a chapter by chapter approach is probably best. Here in a week or two we can post spoilers with abandon.
If the discussion ends up being good, I was thinking about emailing Maureen McHugh a link to it. What do you think?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Of course, anyone else is welcome to join in, too.
Noemon, sending a link to author sounds great. Even if she doesn't want to participate, it would have to be fulfilling to know that people take your work seriously.
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's what I was thinking Sara. Back in the late 90s I emailed her a couple of times, and she was always prompt about replying, so there's a decent chance that she'll get the message and check the thread, I'd think, although I'd be surprised (plesantly surprised, but surprised nonetheless) if she participated.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've completed my first read-through. I was watching this thread in eager anticipation this weekend, but didn't really have time to contribute myself. I may have time tonight, but tomorrow is right out.
posted
I got as far as 37 pages or so, not quite through the first chapter last night after talking with Sara. Tom hasn't read it before and hasn't picked it up yet as far as I know. I'm not sure if he is actually in or not.
Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
What do you think of it so far? I'm trying to put myself in the mindset of someone reading it for the first time, but of course that's difficult to do.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
In addition to the questions posed by Sara here are some things that I'm going to be looking at as a re-read the book:
1. What are the "science fiction" elements of the story?
2. How do these sci-fi elements relate to other authors' or screenwriters' use of similar concepts? Specifically, is this the first time such a concept is used, and if not how does it compare/contrast to others' use of the concept.
3. Are the sci-fi elements integral to the themes of the novel or just fixtures of the setting.
It is just part of my nature as a geek to need to answer these questions when I read science fiction.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I love paying attention to the little details of exposition and character development, and the structure of the plot itself, as well as speculating on the the authors reasons for channeling the plot in the way she does. This should be a really fun thread.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
What led you to read this novel the first time? Was it a recommendation? Had you read others by the same author? Was there something in the subject or characters that you had heard about?
Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
It was pretty random. I saw it on the shelf at my then favorite bookstore and thought Maureen McHugh? Never heard of her. Wonder if she's any good? Turns out she is.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've read through page 34. I'm finding the characterization of Zhang's susceptibility fascinating, and possibly symbolized by the work of demolition he is doing at the start. That is, the way he is acquiescing. I see a lot of that in myself.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
Since it is my second time through I'm missing those first impression sensations. This time I'm picking up on foreshadowing and character traits that later on the author is a bit more blunt about.
I'm glad your participating! I sure enjoyed reading it the first time. I sure wasn't able to keep it at just one chapter.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: I love paying attention to the little details of exposition and character development, and the structure of the plot itself, as well as speculating on the the authors reasons for channeling the plot in the way she does. This should be a really fun thread.
Sara was trying to touch on this in our conversation last night and I find it amazing how the story seems to be TOLD in those little details of exposition. The style is very terse, but incredibly descriptive at the same time. I am incredibly drawn in even though the events are fairly mundane. I'd like to read it a second time because I'm sure I'm missing things the first time around even though I'm just in the first chapter.
Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Is it going to be a landmark? I'm not expecting one, I just noticed, and sometimes it turns out people wish someone had pointed it out.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just got my copy, reading chapter 1... I'll have it read within a day or two, go ahead and start if y'all want and I'll catch up...
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Pooka, it's funny that you mentioned Zhang's occupation (demolition) 'cause I was thinking about that today. I've read the book a few times before, and I really think it's a good idea to watch the changes in his occupation carefully. I feel they're very telling about his state of mind and where his life is going, which is something I never caught until now.
In the first chapter Zhang seems so isolated, and is surrounded by isolated people. He's gay (which still doesn't seem to be totally acceptable) and is not really Chinese (though he appears to be). His foreman at work is out of place since being sent away from China, and the daughter is out of place because her physical deformities.
posted
I think the gay thing may be a spoiler for people who haven't read deeply into the first chapter, and so I'll change the title of the thread to reflect it. (I love the way this is gradually revealed.)
Let's open this up for discussions of the first chapter. I'll post my thoughts tomorrow, along with attempts to answer rubble's questions and pooka & Space Opera's thoughtful assessment (I hadn't realized the job connection, either).
posted
Space Opera's point about how isolated he is at the beginning is a good one. Pooka, it's worth noting that while the actual task he's doing at the beginning of the book is demolition, he's actually overseeing the building of something. At this point in the story he isn't really doing that in his life; he's pretty much just completely adrift, with the slightest bit of force in one direction or another causing him to change direction.
Now, as to exposition and such--I'm not seeing my notes, so instead I'll just flip through and try to remember some of the examples of it that I find so striking.
I love, absolutely love how deftly and subtly this world is drawn for us. You know how occasionally you'll see a drawing in which there are a bare minimum of lines, and yet the object is fully, undeniably, obviously there? McHugh does that with her writing. The example of the subtlty of her touch that I like best comes very early on--page 3 in the copy I'm reading.
quote:"Zhang," the foreman says and so I follow him into the office. Inside, over the door it says "The Revolution lives in the people's hearts" but the paint is wearing thin. It was probably painted during the Great Cleansing Winds campaign. I don't think Foreman Qian is very pure ideologically, he has too much interest in the bottom line. It is loke the crucifix in the hall of the apartment where I gew up, something everyone passes ever day. I have no religion, neither Christ or Mao Zedong.
My god, there's more exposition woven into that one paragraph than there are in most laboriously constructed prologues. That "but the paint is wearing thin" speaks volumes about this place, this time in history, and the people who live in it. Volumes. In addition, she introduces the whole idea of The Great Cleansing Winds, dropping a mention of it so casually and naturally into Zhang's thoughts that one wouldn't even necessarily recognize it as exposition at all. She also conveys quite a bit of information about Zhang with the bit about the crucifix. Reveals significant information about his upbringing, as well as the fact that he's pretty much rudderless. Of course he doesn't believe in Christ of Mao--he doesn't believe in anything at all.
More to come in a minute.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I find it really interesting that the author uses exactly as much Chinese as I know. Which isn't much. It must be a whole different book for some people. For instance, I'm half chinese but regularly mistaken as full chinese- by other Asians. Though his mother being hispanic is odd. I mean, Native Americans and Asians are genetically very similar. I'm interested to see how that will play out.
P.S. It seemed really obvious to me that he is gay. Though the fact that it is a "capital crime" (allusion to The Mikado : "It IS capital!") in China (the dominant culture) might explain why it is still so repressed in this story.
posted
Okay, so, she does a good job, in the first 4 pages or so, of introducing us to a world in which China dominates North America politically, albeit from quite a distance, dominates most of the globe culturally. We haven't seen any dramatic displays of future tech at this point. There is a reference to gene tinkering, but we're probably only a decade or two from that now.
It would have been easy enough for McHugh to have Zhang jack into his cutter or something there in that very first scene, and that's probably how most authors would have handled it. Instead, she does something much more subtle.
quote:I watch the copper marks under the skin of her wrist. Then I watch the copper marks on my wrist, almost like bruises. She ties into her terminal every day, I just my jacks only when I'm working with machinery.
Again, no overt explanation of the technology; nothing that would be out of place from the narrator's perspective. It isn't even stated that the copper marks are the interfaces by which people access computers in this world. It's clear as day that that's the case though--the two connected sentences are simply set next to each other as Zhang's mind flits across them. McHugh is a master at this kind of delicate, precise arrangement of ideas; you'll see it in the way the various plotlines in the story are fitted together. You know how at Machu Picchu the stones are fitted together rather than mortared? It's kind of like that. The elemets of her writing are so precisely laid out that they don't need to be cemented together to be rock solid.
[Edit--well, by the light of day that Machu Picchu analogy doesn't really fit. It implies a heavyness that doesn't exist in McHugh's work. The elements that she arranges do fit together that precisely, but there's a lightness to them that has nothing to do with stone. So, analogy retracted. If I hadn't posted it so many hours ago I'd just delete it.
posted
Pooka, I forgot to say, but thanks for pointing out how close I am to 6K posts. I've never really been all that caught up in post count, and while I probably will do a landmark thread at some point, if it corresponds with a nice round post count it'll be a coincidence.
Nonetheless...wow, 6000 posts. Thats...that's a lot of posts. I wonder how many hours of my life I've spent here? I can't imagine spending it with a more fantastic group of people. The place in nice, but it's the people it attracts that I really love.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
By the way, I sent McHugh a link to this thread, along with a brief discussion of what it is. I doubt she'll post or anything, but hopefully she'll find it interesting.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I heard back from her (very quickly too!). Here's what she had to say:
quote:Jake,
Thanks for the heads up! How about if I let you guys all read it, and then, if you want to ask me about technique or anything, I'll pop in at the end? (I love to talk about writing with writers.)
posted
The end of chapter 1 is sure a dangler. Was that the whole joke, to see who would actually stop at the end of chapter 1? Then I had to reread the start of chapter 2 once I realized we now have a different narrator and didn't merely leap ahead in time by alot.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: McHugh is a master at this kind of delicate, precise arrangement of ideas.
I agree. I was discussing with Tom how this book almost didn't even feel like a science fiction novel because everything seemed so seamlessly integrated into the storyline. You definitely aren't overrun by the technology in the setting.
Here are my notes for Chapter 1 keeping in mind the questions posed:
The storyline seems to eminate from around Zhang, not from him directly. This technique emphasizes the isolation of Zhang and sets him up as an apathetic, lost character to whom things happen. The world affects Zhang, but he does not affect the world and is not sure that he should. He sees the world as structured and he is "bent" in it. "Government is large and the only way to be free is to slip through the cracks"
Yet we also learn most of what we know about Zhang from his interaction with others -- namely San Xiang. She is a reactionary and is full of ideas and change, nievity and hope to counter Zhang's apathy and status quo.
"Places are pretty much the same underneath."..."Because you would still be you and if you were unhappy here, you would be unhappy there"
Another note: Zhang is named after a famous Chinese revolutionary. Perhaps he is doomed to do great things under the influence of San Xiang but is hopeless/stuck in a rut now?
I think the sci-fi elements will become part of the theme, but right now they only seem to me as color to the story. I get a sense of escapism through "jacking-in" that may come to be further developed.
Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:I get a sense of escapism through "jacking-in" that may come to be further developed.
Interesting (all of it was really). What made you think this? Just other stories that involve direct computer/human interfaces, or something in this chapter?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
As I read, it begins to occur to me that reading chapter by chapter is a VERY difficult way to review this book. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, I wouldn't want to have to read this thing slowly, if it were my first time through it.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's not even the speed. It's that each chapter -- and this is a pretty oblique spoiler, I suppose -- deliberately confounds the one before it. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I found McHugh's touch to be so deft and delicate that I was unaware of the strength of the foundation she lays. Noemon quotes a paragraph above that is crafted in the best sense of the word -- produced with care, skill, and ingenuity. Like competitive ice-skating at the higher levels, it looks seemless and light, even easy, but there is so much accomplished in the mechanics.
Taking it piece by piece is the only way I can appreciate it now, although I too wouldn't have initially read it that way. However, my main problem isn't that chapters confound the previous ones, but that chapters foretell what is to come, and it's hard for me to restrict myself to just what is seen at each given moment. The foreshadowing is almost invisible, but it is also almost seamless.
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I guess it was the jacking into the kite flying. It seemed ethereal and a vivid contrast to the stark world.
I haven't read beyond chapter one, btw, so you're getting purely first impressions. Not because I don't want to, but because most of my reading so far has been done in the few minutes I can stay awake after Sophie nurses before bed.
Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Actually, I'm delighted that that's the case Christy; I'm going to be kind of vicariously experiencing the book for the first time through what you say about it.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
So where have people read up to? I'm still on the third page of Chapter 2. I'm kind of mad that Zhang has disappeared from the narrative.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've read through the book, but I haven't posted my detailed thoughts yet on Chapter 1. It's been such a pleasure reading the discussion above, though.
Changed the title to reflect general progression.
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I felt the same way the first time I read it pooka. I was afraid that I had misunderstood, and that this was a collection of short stories set in the same universe, rather than a novel. Don't worry though; you'll be seeing more of Zhang.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
So pooka, have you made it through chp. 2 yet? If so, it's interesting to see Zhang from a completely outside perspective, from someone to whom he is basically a random stranger to, isn't it?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, I guess one could say her activities parallelled his personal life. A disenfranchised outsider trying to skate along with a bent wing, ending in a thrilling accident. Recall that the first intimation that Zhang is gay, he talks about a place where he can be a falcon or something like that.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
]![[Cool]](cool.gif)
