posted
Made it through the second chapter and am starting the third.
I LOVED the second chapter. Some favorite quotes: "I come into the light crippled" "I think my building likes me"
Quick notes and first impressions (hopefully more thought to come later):
Kite flying descriptions are so evocative! I love the media style tone of the chapter, especially how she wraps it up in the end in a much more direct narrative style.
She is a passionate and calculating character with a single focus in life. Kite flying is life and all else is death. Many juxtopositions: Light/dark, high/low, speed/sudden stops or crashes. Dramatic, but I'm not sure what it all means.
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posted
I generally find prose descriptions of spatial relationship tiring. This wasn't too bad, but I think it would have helped to know New York better.
paraphrase: "the combination of seriousness and hyperbole that the sober can't abide..." I didn't know what this meant until I read my first Ann Coulter column yesterday. It seems like she's kidding, but suddenly she seems to be saying something she actually thinks. Very confusing.
So who else is reading chapter by chapter for the first time besides Christy and me?
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posted
I've read it many times before, and I just reread the whole thing as we were starting this, but now I'm going through it chapter by chapter. I guess the short version would have been "not me".
I often don't enjoy descriptions like that either pooka. All of the quidditch stuff in the various Harry Potter books has bored me to tears. Sounds like, like you, reading this passage made me wish I'd been to New York so that I could have pictured the flight better in my mind's eye.
Where are people with this, anyway? Christy? Pooka? What chapter are you guys on at the moment?
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I started Chapter 4, I think. Jerusalem Ridge? I actually saw Baffin Island on a Map today. It's as big as California.
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I've been waiting for some time for Sara to post her discussion of the questions she posed at the beginning of this thread. I thought I'd post my observations to see if they'd help pry those thoughts out of her!
Sara, please forgive me for crudely hacking away at *your* subject.
Outer Self: - Zhang is outwardly an ABC citizen of the former US. This puts him about three levels down in the social caste system. (In my mind below Natural Born Chinese in China, NBC outside of China voluntarily, and NBC "banished" from China.) - He is a semi-skilled construction worker. He has not reached the “glass ceiling” of his breeding, but is not actively looking for advancement. - He attempts to portray himself as a heterosexual male. These characteristics are shows in his interaction with the foreman who want to set Zhang up with his daughter. - He is a good worker, skilled in his specialty, and aware of the needs and motivations of those he works with and who work for him. - He exhibits a quiet formality and classic oriental “good manners” which bespeak “good breeding”.
Inner Self: - Zhang is a Mexican / Chinese half-breed. His outward physiognomy belying Chinese lineage is the work of genetic alteration. - He is homosexual living in constant fear of being outed. - Zhang’s apparent lack of motivation to advance professionally is actually a wish to forego close scrutiny both of his genetics and his sexuality. His perception is that if either of these “inner” facets is known he will immediately be relegated to the bottom of a lower caste. - Zhang is very modest and doesn’t necessarily recognize his skills or his potential. The first person storytelling allows us to make positive judgments of Zhang as he deals with his coworkers, his boss, his date, and his friends. I walk away with a very positive impression, but Zhang is not that impressed with himself. - I’m still not sold as to if Zhang is completely cynical about his oriental “good manners” or not. At times he inwardly recognizes that he is behaving in a certain way to please his various masters, but other times he seems to behave that way just because that is the way he is. I’d like to believe that he is just self aware enough to recognize and manipulate his actions, but I need to read more to decide for sure.
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I'm still on Baffin Island. Bout of the flu and a busy weekend haven't left me any time/energy to read.
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I finally went and got the book on Friday, although that means it will probably come in the mail today. I thought I would go ahead and put my first thoughts down before I went back and read the thread. I've made it through the first 2 chapters and have started the 3rd.
It amazes me how the sci-fi is so subtle in the story. When Zhang jacks into his equipment, it's stated so matter-of-fact like there's nothing remarkable about it. There's no detailed description of the process or the equipment. The same with the kites in Chapter 2. I almost missed the line where it said that the kites were powered by the flyer's own metabolism. It's not elaborated on, it just is. Also, when Angel states that buildings like her. When she goes to clubs, while others wait in line, she goes in, not because a bouncer liked her look, but the building did. Once again, there's not much explanation of how or why this is, it just is.
I had more emotion invested in San-Xiang at the end of the first chapter than I did with Zhang. I felt a lot of pity for her. She's an "ugly" girl whose father used her "face money" for himself. She's doomed to always be unwanted. The one man her father tries to set her up with is actually gay and is not even ABC as her father thinks. When Zhang shows no interest in her, she can only think it's because of her ugliness. But then at the end, she used Zhang the same way her father tried to use her. She must have known that when her father found out where she had been, Zhang would be fired.
I wonder if she was truly ugly or just average looking. In a world where it's common and almost expected for faces to be corrected the same way we correct our teeth with braces, does average looking become ugly?
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posted
I'm pretty sure that she's really supposed to be fairly horrifically ugly. Her problem isn't just that she's not as good looking as one would expect; she has a congenital problem with the bones underlying her face not having formed properly, doesn't she?
Do you think that she knew that her father would fire Zhang? You'd think so, but San-Xiang is incredibly naive; she's bright, but in part because of her face she's lived a pretty sheltered life. Most of her knowledge about the world is theoretical; she's at home in a study group plotting out a commune that will probably never happen, but she seems more than a little bit out at sea in her real life interactions.
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quote:Zhang’s apparent lack of motivation to advance professionally is actually a wish to forego close scrutiny both of his genetics and his sexuality. His perception is that if either of these “inner” facets is known he will immediately be relegated to the bottom of a lower caste.
This is true as far as it goes. Zhang, I'm sure, would tell you that this is why he doesn't attempt to advance himself professionally, but I don't buy it as the ultimate cause of his lack of motivation. At this point in the book, the defining aspect of Zhang's character is his tendency toward inactivity. He's like water, in that he'll flow in the easiest direction possible; he doesn't possess any motive force of his own. The homosexuality and genemod stuff are excuses, but if they weren't there he'd come up with others, I think.
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posted
Maybe you're right that she wouldn't have known about Zhang getting fired. I guess part of me was railing at her thinking how could she not know.
Of course, I thought Zhang should have known as well what would happen. He can't seem to say "no" at this point to anyone however, whether to Qian, San Xiang, Peter, etc. Would I be wrong in thinking this characteristic is going to be used as part of his growth as a character?
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You know, I can remember being like Zhang is now. I still have a bit of a tendency toward inactivity if I'm not careful, honestly. That mess of an apartment that would only take him a few minutes to clean up, but that he hasn't bothered to get around to is so familiar to me, and I can remember in college thinking "okay, I'm going to buckle down and study tonight. No distractions." and then a friend would show up and want go go and get some food, and I'd think "oh, well, I have to eat. I'll just go grab a bite with Greg, and then back to work", and of course I'd end up being out all evening. Also, my pastimes were things I could lose myself in--books and computer games, mostly. Zhang's favorite leisure activity is jacking in and following the kites, which would be the perfect thing to do if you wanted to lose yourself in an activity.
You know, in the past when I've told people that CMZ was my favorite book, the first question they usually asked me, if they were familiar with the book, was if I was gay, which I always thought was funny. In writing this, though, I've realized why it is that I identify so strongly with Zhang in this book. It seems fairly obvious now, but I'd never really put it together before.
But anyway, in response to your post Zan, I had the same response, railing at San-Xiang in my head for not realizing the position she was putting Zhang in. At the same time, I was railing at Zhang. He *did* know what would happen, I think; it's just that at this point in the narrative he's not capable of of acting. He has no motive force of his own at all.
Yes, I know, I'm basically just saying the exact same thing you did, but taking twice the number of words to say it. Heh.
quote:Would I be wrong in thinking this characteristic is going to be used as part of his growth as a character?
I don't think it would be much of a spoiler to say that you wouldn't be wrong.
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posted
[rubble, I'm back. Apparently I deal with my husband's extended business trips by baking many and varied casseroles to freeze, cleaning out storage units, and generally avoiding the internet. Who knew?
I'll post my answers and thoughts on the first three chapters before I read your answers or the following discussion. But I'll come back and read avidly.]
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Noemon- that is exactly what I meant early on by Zhang's "moral susceptibility". I'll be interested to see how this translates into the cover blurbs about "outsider" heroism. It also raises a question for myself, if I could ever write a book about someone who was essentially unlike me.
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quote:I think; it's just that at this point in the narrative he's not capable of of acting. He has no motive force of his own at all.
I'm don't think that he has no motive force. I believe that he is acting out the chinese social contract. Even though he *knows* what the end result of his allowing San-Xiang to stay in his apartment, he is compelled to allow it by his adopted society.
Looking at his actions dispationately we can judge that he didn't owe San-Xiang anything. However, in my opinion, at this point in his life he is completely driven by trying to fit in to his caste and keep his status in life. To that end he feels compelled to behave in the way expected of a NBC.
posted
I don't know. I hadn't really thought of it like that before, so it could just be me responding to the newness of the idea, but it doesn't really feel that way to me. I mean, if this were an isolated incident, maybe, but it really pervades all aspects of his life. Does he not clean up his apt. because of trying to live according to the caste he wants to be a part of? Does he go out with Peter even when he doesn't want to because of it? To me, letting Sian-Xiang stay in his apt. feels more like that pattern of behavior than of his trying to be traditional ABC or something.
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posted
I had the opinion that he let San-Xiang stay because he couldn't say no anymore than he could say no when Peter would call and ask him to go out. He was a follower. He couldn't say no to Qian, he couldn't say no to Peter and his friends and he couldn't say no to San-Xiang.
Wouldn't the chinese social contract more likely forbid him from allowing a single female to stay with him?
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quote:It's not even the speed. It's that each chapter -- and this is a pretty oblique spoiler, I suppose -- deliberately confounds the one before it.
I must have skimmed over that before, because I'm just now really noticing it. Can you elaborate on that? How does each chapter confound the one before it. I'm not sure I follow you.
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I'm going to hold out for now. I see your point of lack of motivation in many of Zhang's actions. I also think that many of his interpersonal actions are pre-defined by the culture that he has spent his lifetime trying steadfastly to adopt.
I'll revisit this as I continue through the book again. I don't want to "remember" out loud some of my impressions of the evolution of the Zhang character now for fear of revealing too much too early for those who are still first time readers.
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Letting a single woman stay in your apartment as opposed to forcing her back out on the street? I don't know that there is anything in the cultural norm that allows a fitting response to her request. But at the beginning when she showed up, I thought he father had kicked her out knowing she would go there to "up the ante".
Also, I dont know that we can extrapolate a code of behavior that is foreign to our own (assuming we are all, to one degree or another, outsiders in a pluralistic culture). What good is a story you have to be Chinese to understand?
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posted
Pooka, I'm not sure that I'm reading your post correctly, so don't take offense if I misrepresent you
quote:What good is a story you have to be Chinese to understand?
I think that the reason that McHugh uses the Chinese culture as the setting for this book is because of her direct experience in that culture as a teacher. Don't you think that just as she is bringing the homosexual culture out into the mainstream by including it as part of her setting she is bring the Chinese culture out by including it? I think that it is imperative that the reader empathize, to learn the small facets of the culture that the author exposes throught the setting, to fully understand the actions of the characters.
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posted
What do you say we officially move the discussion on to Chapter 3, Baffin Island? There's more we could say about the first two chapters, but people ::ahem Sara ahem:: that have input on the first two chapters can always bring it up later on. I'll confess that I've moved on and am now rereading the Daoist Engineering chapter, but I'll reread Baffin Island over lunch to refresh my memory of it, and then probably post something about it.
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posted
How dare you do a part of your job rather than hang out with your friends online and chat about a book! Really woman, where are your priorities?
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posted
Okay, okay, I admit it, I started to go back and reread Baffin Island, but I love Daoist Engineering--it's one of my favorite chapters in teh book--so I went ahead and finished that instead, and was several pages into Three Fragrances before I realized what I'd done. I'll post on Baffin Island, but it'll probably be a little while before I do so.
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My poor head just hasn't been up to the task. I'm on meds now, so hopefully I'll be back at it in a day. *keeps fingers crossed*
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posted
I just finished it again. My god, that's a beautiful book. I am absolutely thunderstruck by it every time I read it. It's just so...beautiful. I've read it twice now since we started reading it together, and I still feel overwhelmed by it. I'll go back and do it chapter by chapter now, I promise. So, where were we--about to begin Baffin Island, right?
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quote:I think that it is imperative that the reader empathize, to learn the small facets of the culture that the author exposes throught the setting, to fully understand the actions of the characters.
Right, but I don't think we should be ascribing actions to the chinese culture that haven't been exposed in the text. So I don't know who misread who first.
I find it interesting when the narrator repeats himself. In talking about his name, for one thing, and again with the Native woman looking Chinese. Looks like I need a refresh read too. I think her name is Maggie.
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quote:I don't think we should be ascribing actions to the chinese culture that haven't been exposed in the text. So I don't know who misread who first.
I see your point!
I'm away to Rome for until Wed next week, so probably won't be participating. I'll get some time to play when I get back though. Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Oh, okay, I see what you're talking about. I find that my thoughts are like that too--they kind of loop back on each other, and I'll end up thinking the same thing several times. I took it as McHugh doing a really good job of getting inside the character's head. This is definitely the chapter for getting into his head, since it's the chapter in which he's stripped of all external distractions and forced to confront himself.
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posted
Finished Baffin Island and am a few pages into Jerusalem Ridge.
Wow. We learn so much about Zhang this chapter.
I would LOVE to see this chapter from someone else's point of view. I hope it is revisited.
He goes out into the stark ice continent of Antarctica and finds yet again a compassionate, book smart female to show him the way, yet he doesn't know how to relate to her or thank her.
He repeats San Xaing's philosophy that you are yourself wherever you are and if you are not happy, you will not be happy anywhere.
Ha, the description of the Canadians, nieve and out of touch, but nice. The description of the fancy sweaters just made me laugh. I can't imagine even here in my research building someone wearing such fashion.
This chapter really solidifies for me Zhang's complete abstraction from life. Especially his near-death experience. It was almost creepy and we get the thoughts going on in his head.
What a powerful nervous breakdown. However, I find interesting that even after all of that, things went back to "normal" It really wasn't portrayed as a life changing event -- again we get the abstraction because we hear from Maggie's point of view that everything is going to be okay now and only from Zhang that he began to study once again.
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quote: again a compassionate, book smart female to show him the way
Again? Are you referring back to San Xiang? I didn't see Maggie as similar to her. In San Xiang's case, book smart = clueless about everything else. Maggie's contribution was traditional and practical.
I think the idea of him not really having a purpose there like everyone else on the station is interesting. Something else that seemed significant to me is that he never interacts with the guy whose suit he is always borrowing. The sweater conversation and the ones Peter sends him were also funny.
P.S. So I'm also going to start with Jerusalem Ridge. *SPOILERS?* . . . . . . . I see it as someone who has a very different style from Zhang. This point of view character acts without thinking, whereas Zhang agonizes over everything. Nonetheless, they both wind up letting people they aren't attracted to stay with them. I'm not done with it yet, but that was the only link I could discern.
posted
You know, it just hit me that Baffin Island is sort of a metaphor for Zhang's psyche - isolated and intense. It's also an alien landscape, and we all know how alien Zhang is compared to an average person in his society.
posted
Exactly Space Opera. When Zhang is at Baffin Island, he's forced to confront himself. I see Baffin Island as being very much an expression of his inner psyche.
That's interesting what you were saying about Martine, pooka. With Zhang, he goes along with *everything*, regardless of what he wants to do. Martine, on the other hand, acts very decidedly in a particular direction; I think that she just isn't honest to herself about her motivations. Look at the way she touches her hair when Alexi is around; hair touching is often an unconscious sign of attraction, or of flirting.
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quote:It really wasn't portrayed as a life changing event
I left that chapter with the feeling that Zhang had undergone a life changing event. Not necessarily just the near-death experience, but the whole trip. The sunrise in the Artic seemed to echo Zhang's reawakening. He was no longer continuing down the same path of good intentions, but actually began to work in earnest towards a goal.
quote:Nonetheless, they both wind up letting people they aren't attracted to stay with them.
I believe Martine was definitely attracted to Alexi. She just didn't want to admit it even to herself.
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quote: Again? Are you referring back to San Xiang? I didn't see Maggie as similar to her. In San Xiang's case, book smart = clueless about everything else. Maggie's contribution was traditional and practical.
I don't see them as similar people, but find their interaction with and reaction to Zhang similar.
quote:The sunrise in the Artic seemed to echo Zhang's reawakening. He was no longer continuing down the same path of good intentions, but actually began to work in earnest towards a goal.
Wow, I completely missed that! It makes sense after reading on, though.
Jerusalem Ridge:
I see Martine as practical and directed. She has worked hard and made all the right decisions to achieve her station in life which should have made her happy, yet she wants more. I see her as in the mid-point of life, where she has had some experience and generally is comfortable in her skin. She is made young and social again through her interactions with Alexi. I find it interesting that the commune has broken down and that it seems that everyone has become self preserving. Nothing is ever really decided in meetings, committees produce the same results with the same people heading them. I get the feeling of comfortable stagnation with no young blooded changemakers.
I am truly amazed that even colonization of Mars has managed to be seamlessly introduced into the storyline without a bat of an eye. I hope she clarifies how they came to be there.
posted
Sounds good. I was afraid that this thread would lose momentum, and it looks like it has. We can just discuss it at whatever length feels right on whatever timetable works at this point, I think.
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posted
Is this the chapter with the goat with the soul of a whore. The may be the best line in modern fiction. That and, "Life is extraordinarily cruel on ugly women." I think that's from the first or second chapters. The Mars scenes are my favorite. The subdued longing and practical sadness was wonderfully portrayed, not to mention the subtle relationships.
posted
I've refrained from posting because I have no clue what chapter we're supposed to be on. The chapters with the Mars colony have always fascinated me. What do you think the author's purpose was for them? We do see a tiny bit of Zhang in them, but not really enough to learn any more about him other than he's tutoring. I think perhaps that the point of them is to tie back into the theme of home and that your soul must be your home. If your soul is unhappy, then a physical place doesn't change that. Martine comments that she was very unhappy on Mars at first and wanted to leave, but eventually it became easier to stay than to go.
space opera
edit: Why did I sign my name twice?
[ October 28, 2004, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Space Opera ]
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posted
Whoa! This is fantastic! So much more than I was expecting! I'm looking forward to reading it all the way through when I have time. Thanks for the bump. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
All these insights have been excellent, and broadened my appreciation of the book. I think I'll cross post my review to this thread, for the sake of keeping all the material on this book together in one place. I hope nobody minds.
Looking back on the Mars chapters, they were such an offshoot, with so little contact with the rest of the story, that I'm wondering how to understand why they're in here. I enjoyed them. I want to know how the situation resolved with the system being out of whack and the CO2 levels being too high. But I don't see what purpose they serve in the larger story.
I realize this thread is ages old, but in case anyone who has read the book wants to answer my question, I'll pose it. Was it to show contrast between Zhang's character and Martine's? The more passive versus the proactive? Was it just to show someone who had immediate practical need for Zhang's engineering expertise? Someone whose life would be made materially better by learning from him? Or some other reason?
I share everyone's astonishment and delight at how subtly the exposition was handled throughout. The world felt so real, I think, because she never called attention to any of these science fictional elements, just mentioned them in passing as they came into the story. Yet we weren't left puzzled of what the heck she was talking about. It was clearly understandable and expected, possibly because the things she mentioned aren't that far extrapolated from our current technology, but partly because of her masterful way of handling exposition.
She definitely got you to care about all the characters right away. I can never understand what it is about writers who can do that as opposed to those who can't. It seems purely magical to me. But almost from the first paragraph introducing each character, I already care about them and want to know what happens to them. That's probably the one thing more than anything else that makes me realize this is a really good book.
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My original review I posted before reading any of the commentary here:
This book is one of those that sneak into your high regard. It's not flashy or sensational, it's just very real. The author has the knack of writing characters you care about. All the various subplots weave together, touching at points. You find that you care deeply about what happens to each of them, and the story of their struggles, their loves, and their accomplishments makes really good reading. The world is extremely well-built and realistic. I totally do think China will be the world's main power in not too many more years. Everything about it feels true.
While I was disappointed at the story of my favorite character, the supervisor's daughter, (I thought she got a raw deal, and I would have liked to get more resolution on her story line), I found all the plot-lines engrossing. I want to know, too, what happened to the goats, and if the Martian contingent was able to get their system repaired or replaced in time to prevent any harm to the goats or people.
I thought it was interesting how the author chose a gay man for her title character. I thought it was sad that she depicted a world in which gays are no more accepted than they are today in ours. I would have hoped in 250 years or so that things would be better than that for gays and also for women. But not so.
In all things the book is understated. The struggle is not to save the world or to battle evil, but just to find a place, to make some room in the world in which the characters can live. In that way it's very like our own struggles in life, to earn a living, to pay medical expenses, and so on. It's a book that bears thinking about, one that grows in the imagination, and in the depth of the characters portrayed. I really liked this book.
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posted
Now these are additional comments I'm making in response to the discussion on this thread:
I was frustrated at Zhang's passivity at first. It seemed he let himself be carried along without exerting himself to do anything he wanted to do or aim toward a life he wanted to live. It did occur to me that the way things played out between his supervisor, the supervisor's daughter, and himself may have been partially due to Chinese culture. But not knowing anything about Chinese culture, other than through reading a few ancient books plus Amy Tan, I just left that idea in suspension.
The whole organic engineering idea sounds way groovy. I'm so ready to start on that system. I'm afraid engineering practice is growing farther and farther away from any sort of artistry like that, though, rather than toward it. It seems that I can't put a wire in a conduit anywhere in the plant without citing multiple standards, rules, and procedures which tell me or allow me to place it there. I feel as though I'm 3/4 attorney and 1/4 engineer these days. Any holistic idea of the system as a synergistic being has been completely fragmented, first by breaking things down into electrical, controls, mechanical, civil, stress, seismic, materials, etc. then by having standards and procedures for welding, inspection, lifting and rigging, foreign material exclusion, scaffolding, fall protection, fire protection, and so on ad infinitum. Like spending several days trying to convince the flow accelerated corrosion people that when you do an ultrasound test for wall thickness on a pipe for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with flow accelerated corrosion, you don't have to abide by the same standards. Each person is an expert on their tiny specialty and almost nobody sees the big picture. It upsets me.
So the idea of an individual working with the system to generate this complete harmonious design strikes me as marvelous. It's like AutoCAD version omega. I can't wait to try it!
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