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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » They Ripped Off Ender's Game! (Page 1)

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Author Topic: They Ripped Off Ender's Game!
Godric 2.0
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Director Scott Derrickson (The Exorcism of Emily Rose, The Day the Earth Stood Still, Sinister) on Twitter:

quote:
2 chapters in and my 9-year-old has already noted how both HARRY POTTER and THE MATRIX (which he hasn't seen) have ripped off ENDERS GAME.

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Dogbreath
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The Matrix?
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ClaudiaTherese
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Re-used the line: The enemy's gate is down.

Also had character named Hot Soup.

Plus, written by man named "Orson Scott Card."

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
The Matrix?

"Rip-off" is a strong word when something is being influenced by something else. The Matrix doesn't rip-off Ender's Game, although there are textual elements and thematic correlations. Particularly in dialogue, you can infer some inspiration for Morpheus from Graff, for example, and of course from Ender on Neo, but it's not like Ender's Game is the first story to have these character archetypes. It's just that given the relationship between Neo and Morpheus, there are some parallels with Graff and Ender. But again, and more importantly, these are tropes old to drama and especially prevalent in Sci-Fi, where a greater part of the literature concerns war and soldiering in different contexts.


I think kids especially should be taught the different between well-used and well-known tropes of literature and story, and "ripping something off." It's rather a blow to creativity to give kids the idea that you can't write a story with the same elements as one which has already been written. The point of being original is not doing something that has never been done before- it's doing it in a way that hasn't been done yet.

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AchillesHeel
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Derrickson did an interview with Kevin Smith on Smoviemakers, I was already a big fan of The Exorcism of Emily Rose and Hellraiser: Inferno but he made such a case for The Day The Earth Stood Still that I went to see Sinister in theater.

When he is allowed to do what he wants he is one of the best young directors around.

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Dogbreath
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Orincoro: I guess. I can see enough correlation between Ender's Game and Harry Potter to understand why a kid might think one was influenced by the other. (for all I know, Harry Potter *was* influenced by Ender's Game...) But Ender's Game and The Matrix share little more in common than any two stories with a Messianic character. Might as well claim that The Matrix is a ripoff of the New Testament... or Neuromancer.
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Orincoro
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Well exactly. Their similarities are interesting, but their differences are massive.

OSC wrote a clever piece on this some years ago. He basically wrote a synopsis of Ender's Game, and then said: This is a story we all know and love: Harry Potter. His point being that you *could* write a synopsis that made them sound like the same thing, even though they're very different in many respects. He didn't feel he had been "ripped off," but he was responding to misconceptions of what influence and inspiration mean to literature.

You can be virtually *certain* Ender's Game influenced Harry Potter. If Rowling is literate, she has read a book influenced by Ender's Game (and she most probably has read EG as well), and been influenced by it. It's the tide of art- it raises all ships in its wake.

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Synesthesia
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That was not a clever piece. It was such an attack on JKR just because she outed Dumbledore. It was rather rude. But it is the typical hero's journey and a person who thinks they are ordinary learning they are essential for saving the world. Which is EVERY BOOK EVER.
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Tinros
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
That was not a clever piece. It was such an attack on JKR just because she outed Dumbledore. It was rather rude. But it is the typical hero's journey and a person who thinks they are ordinary learning they are essential for saving the world. Which is EVERY BOOK EVER.

Have you seen what happens to a person who grows UP thinking they're the Savior/Messiah/Chosen One? That's where book and movie VILLAINS come from. [Razz]
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
That was not a clever piece. It was such an attack on JKR just because she outed Dumbledore. It was rather rude. But it is the typical hero's journey and a person who thinks they are ordinary learning they are essential for saving the world. Which is EVERY BOOK EVER.

He was accusing JKR of cowardice for saying Dumbledore was gay after the last book was safely published, instead of putting it in the novels clearly, which would have negatively affected sales.

I think it's a very fair criticism. I got the impression in book seven that Dumbledore was gay, but it was never owned up to.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I tend to disagree BB...I liked that Dumbledore was gay and it was never mentioned directly because his personal love life was never mentioned directly. It just wasn't anyone's business...not that he's gay per se, but because he is an educator and his personal life has -nothing to do with it-.

Also, "owned up to"? Kinda a bad phrase in this context.

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Dogbreath
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http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/everything/2008-04-20.shtml is the actual article in question. The reference to Dumbledore comes as an aside at the end, I sincerely doubt he wrote it because of Dumbledore being gay, Syn. And it certainly wasn't "just because."

The quote is:
quote:
It's like her stupid, self-serving claim that Dumbledore was gay. She wants credit for being very up-to-date and politically correct -- but she didn't have the guts to put that supposed "fact" into the actual novels, knowing that it might hurt sales.

What a pretentious, puffed-up coward. When I have a gay character in my fiction, I say so right in the book. I don't wait until after it has had all its initial sales to mention it.

I think it's a pretty fair statement... I personally don't know if J.K. Rowling intended Dumbledore to be gay all along or not, but from OSC's point of view, it seems like she cashed in on it for selfish reasons. i.e, using an issue like homosexuality to get herself news coverage and be thought of as progressive, when if she had actually cared about Dumbledore's sexuality and wanted to use it to make a statement/thought it was an important part of the character, she should have mentioned it in the books.

Now, from what I've read of the whole situation, I think OSC's point of view on this is mistaken. (She really did plan Dumbledore to be gay, and was just answering a fan's question, not trying to make a statement) But I'm think it's disingenuous to claim he was angry because Dumbledore was gay, rather than him being angry because of the way she chose to reveal it. I think people (most of them not on this site) have a bad habit of misconstruing every statement OSC makes about homosexuality as negatively as possible. (granted, they certainly have reason to do so...)

quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Also, "owned up to"? Kinda a bad phrase in this context.

You know what he meant. Don't be obnoxious.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
That was not a clever piece. It was such an attack on JKR just because she outed Dumbledore. It was rather rude. But it is the typical hero's journey and a person who thinks they are ordinary learning they are essential for saving the world. Which is EVERY BOOK EVER.

It was a clever part of a piece. The rest of it was crap, yes.


quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:

I think it's a very fair criticism. I got the impression in book seven that Dumbledore was gay, but it was never owned up to.

That was what the article was ostensibly about. The article was actually about how OSC is smarter than JKR, and PCness is ruining America. But that is essentially what all of his articles are now about: he is smart, and democrats are ruining everything.
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Dogbreath
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One could actually argue the article was about JK Rowling suing RDR books... which is, you know, what the vast majority of the article was written about.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
One could actually argue the article was about JK Rowling suing RDR books... which is, you know, what the vast majority of the article was written about.

*nods*
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
You know what he meant. Don't be obnoxious.

I do? How can you possibly know what I know or do not know? Want to talk about obnoxious, how about being presumptuous AND bossy.

The phrasing struck me as negative, so I said something, BB can speak for himself dude.

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Bella Bee
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In a world where the series of bestselling Adult Fiction books globally this year is fan-fiction of the last series of Young Adult mega-bestselling books, and obviously someone will soon be publishing fan-fiction of that... I think the Ouroboros of art and popular culture has finally reached the top of its own vertebrae and is now chowing down on its mouth from the inside out.

Or something.

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
You know what he meant. Don't be obnoxious.

I do? How can you possibly know what I know or do not know?
Because I can read your mind!!!!!!

Call it a hunch. Or perhaps an (over)estimation of your powers of observation. *shrugs*

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Stone_Wolf_
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And you are ordering me to not be obnoxious?
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
And you are ordering me to not be obnoxious?

Oh, that I could give such orders, and have them obeyed in my capacity as moderator! [Wink]
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Dogbreath
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I'd probably post here a lot more. [Smile]
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Dogbreath
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Bella: Call me a philistine, but I'm not sure what series of fan-fiction you're talking about?
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Bella Bee
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'Fifty Shades of Grey' and sequels.
It was first published on the internet as a 'Twilight' series fan-fic, and a lot of the characters and quite a few story elements are basically the same.

Both suck, but the whole rip-off element is still depressing.

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Dogbreath
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Oh. I've heard of Fifty Shades of Grey (my girlfriend's mother loves it, apparently) but I had no idea it was a Twilight fan-fic.

Are there, like, sparkly vampires in Fifty Shades too?

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Dogbreath
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*goes off to write Fifty Shades of Grey fan-fic*
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
Are there, like, sparkly vampires in Fifty Shades too?

Not quite. A weird rich guy, which is almost the same thing.

As for writing FSoG fanfic, you are SO behind the curve.

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Synesthesia
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That was not a fair statement at all because a person can have all kinds of details about a character that don't make it into the book. Plus the book wasn't about Dumbledore but Harry. And OSC makes his gay characters marry women, so how is that fair? At that point she was a ka-billionaire and is less of one because she gave away so much money. So, she's really not an evil witch..

guh. He can be so MEAN when it comes to these articles...

Also I refuse to read 50 shades [Mad] I hate the glorification of abusive men as love interests. It makes me mad. If this isn't coherent I'm distracted by having so many reply windows with the whole topic listed. Dang @_@


quote:

quote:
It's like her stupid, self-serving claim that Dumbledore was gay. She wants credit for being very up-to-date and politically correct -- but she didn't have the guts to put that supposed "fact" into the actual novels, knowing that it might hurt sales.

What a pretentious, puffed-up coward. When I have a gay character in my fiction, I say so right in the book. I don't wait until after it has had all its initial sales to mention it.



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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:

Also I refuse to read 50 shades [Mad] I hate the glorification of abusive men as love interests. It makes me mad.



You are not missing much but I admit to reading them and I don't think it's really fair to call Christian Grey abusive, at least not in the way you are probably thinking. Yes, he likes to inflict pain on women, usually involving some form of spanking with hand, belt or cane but ONLY with the full consent of his partner in the context of a consensual BDSM relationship.

I do not recall a single incident where he hit any woman without her express consent (though he does punch a man or two) and there are many instances where he refuses to indulge in his desires after Anna has said no. I suppose you could make the point that it is still abuse even if the abused agrees to it but I'm no expert on the subject.

He is a sick, controlling bastard though [Big Grin]

[ December 05, 2012, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Wingracer ]

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Stone_Wolf_
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Call me a libertarian, but I say what consenting adults do behind closed doors is their own business, and not abusive.

The main word there being "consenting".

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Synesthesia
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Yeah. BDSM is one thing. Dating a man who is a controlling jerk and FORCES you into that sort of thing though is a different story.


Controlling jerks are not sexy to me.

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Call me a libertarian

I doubt anyone is suggesting it be illegalized.

quote:
Yeah. BDSM is one thing. Dating a man who is a controlling jerk and FORCES you into that sort of thing though is a different story.


Controlling jerks are not sexy to me.

I haven't read the book so I can't comment on it directly, yeah, from what I've been told by friends who have (and an article I read about the book), Christian sounds like a pretty evil older guy who exploits, intimidates, and manipulates a rather naive and timid virginal young woman and treats her pretty horribly. I could see it being somewhat damaging for a young woman (I'm thinking ~14-17ish) to read and assume it's an accurate portrayal of a healthy sexual relationship. Then again, every woman I know who has read the book (who are overwhelmingly middle-aged mothers, along with one 23 year old college student) and enjoyed it recognizes what an abusive bastard Christian is. It's a "I wouldn't actually want to date him, I just enjoy the fantasy" type deal.

I don't know any men who have read it.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
But I'm think it's disingenuous to claim he was angry because Dumbledore was gay, rather than him being angry because of the way she chose to reveal it. I think people (most of them not on this site) have a bad habit of misconstruing every statement OSC makes about homosexuality as negatively as possible. (granted, they certainly have reason to do so...)

That is because what he did and how he acted about dumbledore being gay was extremely predictable and extremely patternable, so.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
One could actually argue the article was about JK Rowling suing RDR books... which is, you know, what the vast majority of the article was written about.

Nah. For more information, look up "ostensible" in the dictionary.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
But I'm think it's disingenuous to claim he was angry because Dumbledore was gay, rather than him being angry because of the way she chose to reveal it. I think people (most of them not on this site) have a bad habit of misconstruing every statement OSC makes about homosexuality as negatively as possible. (granted, they certainly have reason to do so...)

That is because what he did and how he acted about dumbledore being gay was extremely predictable and extremely patternable, so.
I buy that he was angry about how she revealed it. But I also buy that he was angry about the way she chose to reveal it *because* he is a homophobe.

I'm with him- revealing your character is gay outside of your literary work is weak sauce, and just generally lame and not worthy of much kudos. But I don't get angry about it. This article didn't appear in a vacuum -it came as one in a long string of works, fiction and non-fiction, that send a discernable message about how the author feels about homosexuality -and while those feelings might be termed "ambiguous," in certain respects, they would not fairly be described as positive.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I don't know about "revealing" as she was just answering fan questions and it makes total sense to me for a writer to have a bunch of background on characters that doesn't make the page.
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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
One could actually argue the article was about JK Rowling suing RDR books... which is, you know, what the vast majority of the article was written about.

Nah. For more information, look up "ostensible" in the dictionary.
Yes, I know what ostensible means. And the article was ostensibly (and, arguably, actually) about that lawsuit. The entire gay Dumbledore part of it takes up all of 2 paragraphs at the end, your statement that it was ostensibly about the way she revealed Dumbledore's gayness makes no sense.
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Synesthesia
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It's just, we don't know much about other adult character's sexuality either. McGonagal could have been a lesbian. The book is in 90% Harry's perspective. When does he have time to find out if Dumbledore liked men? When would Dumbledore even MENTION being gay if he's too busy trying to figure out how to kill Voldermort? Does he just go, Oh, by the way, Harry, I am gay, and now let's dive into this memory with Voldermort?

So OSC's complaint was rather silly and had nothing to do with complaining about her suing a fan. Not to mention calling her names just wasn't necessary.

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BlackBlade
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Warning Harry Potter Spoilers***

Except that a *huge* chunk of Book Seven was Harry finding out all about Dumbledore's past, and having his idealized heroic version of Dumbledore shattered by the human Dumbledore who grew into the great man that he was.

They discussed his family, and his first love, but he's never clearly identified as that, but more a best buddy, who turns into his enemy. For pete's sake lovers turned enemies? I absolutely have to think that if Dumbledore and Grindlewald had been a heterosexual couple, Rowling would have mentioned it without hesitation. It makes for deeper drama. It's only because they are a same-sex couple, that it's kept out.

I'll grant that's just one guy's opinion, but it's the strong impression I got after hearing that interview and reading the book.

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Dogbreath
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^What he said. Her choice not to reveal Dumbledore's sexuality in the narrative (it didn't have to be a huge "HE'S GAY!!!!!!" announcement that all the characters stop and talk about, just simply mentioning that he and Grindlewald were lovers, and moving on) damages the integrity and power of Deathly Hallows. It seems like a cowardly move.

From the other side, OSC took a good deal of flak for having openly gay characters in his books decades before Rowling decided she had to hide Dumbledore's sexuality, so I can understand his anger, and don't necessarily think it's motivated by homophobia.

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Lyrhawn
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I think part of the problem with putting gay characters in books, especially wildly popular ones, is that it's seen as a stunt. You get crap for not putting it in, but if you make a major character gay, it looks like a stunt, like you're just doing it for attention and publicity. I guess Rowling didn't need the attention, but nor did she need the negative press in a story already attacked by conservatives over the witchcraft issue.

I've considered using gay characters in the books I'm writing, and I think I've finally settled on an appropriate space for one, but authors are fooling themselves, and readers lying to themselves, if they're trying to pretend it's no big deal.

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Synesthesia
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Yeah, openly gay characters that are forced to marry people of the opposite sex.

Such a healthy portrayal.

Because gays can't be part of the web of life unless they marry someone of the opposite sex?

That's not a good message! If it subtlety HINTS he might have been gay, like being gay is not such a terrible big deal that's better than telling gays they are not even welcome at the table. But the story had more to do with defeating Voldermort than Dumbledore's sexuality.

Now His Dark Materials had gay angels.

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AchillesHeel
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quote:
Now His Dark Materials had gay angels.
This is my favorite sentence of the week.
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theamazeeaz
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People being mad about Dumbledore being gay is a huge pet peeve of mine.

Like many series authors, JK Rowling is known to have had extensive backstories for her characters. She also refused to talk about most of it until the final book was released because of spoilers. She promised that she could probably answer anything after book 7 came out.

SOMEONE AT AN AUTHOR EVENT POINT BLANK ASKED HER IF DUMBLEDORE HAD EVER BEEN MARRIED.

No, he was gay.

That's why it came out. JKR didn't plan to "reveal" it, or suddenly decide. It's just that no Hogwarts teacher had a relevant love life in Harry's world. If you want an analogous situation, check out Pottermore, and read the several pages she wrote about Prof. McGonagall's love affairs with muggles. Not relevant.

AGAIN, SOMEONE POINT BLANK ASKED ABOUT MRS. DUMBLEDORE AND SHE ANSWERED.

Also, my understanding is that Dumbledore and Grindelwald were never lovers, Dumbledore just had a massive crush on him which caused him to overlook Grindwald being proto-wizard-Hilter. Until his sister died, after which he pretty much a monk and threw himself into Hogwarts. If Dumbledore were not gay, I don't see that experience souring him from romance. He's someone who would have been snapped up repeatedly, had he been attracted to women, and given his longevity, there either was a very interesting story about why his spouse/children were dead (okay not that interesting, Voldy did it, but he would have told Harry) or being alive, what they were up to these days. Or why he wasn't with Poppy Pomfrey after she told him she liked his socks. Being a chaste gay guy is actually the most boring explanation, because he simply threw himself into his work. No other story needed after Grindlewald. It wasn't brought up because him being gay was a device that KEPT him from having a love life.

Think about this, if Dumbledore were heterosexual, Dumbledore is too prominent a character leading too public of a life in a wizarding world that is too small, such that anyone who lived with him as a spouse or a child in the past 50 years would have been brought up in some other context. It's a real conspicuous absence.

Also, why was it such a big deal? The audience went WILD when she said it.

Why? Harry Potter Slash Fic. You don't need to look it up, but the fans who are into that sort of thing are RABID. Also really good at scoring tickets to JKR events, because she the part about them being RABID. The idea that someone in the books were officially gay just made them very happy.

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Samprimary
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quote:
I'm with him- revealing your character is gay outside of your literary work is weak sauce, and just generally lame and not worthy of much kudos.
Dumbledore's sexuality was just not really at all made expressably relevant in the books. If you were harry you could have guessed or asked, but it's if mcgonnagal were a lesbian, is the book really gonna go into that, or what
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Synesthesia
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I was there. It was an enjoyable event and me and my friend were rather gleeful about that. Someone asked about Hagrid and Madame Maxine too and they were disappointed that they didn't work out.

Also, one reason not to include it is people are nutwits who cannot understand that a gay dude can love a kid without LOVING him in that way. Yes, sadly that sort of thing still exists. Most of the professors don't even get any kind of love life until they are outside of the school. Like Lupin. These folks just like to make a big deal out of things that are not a big deal. Like someone being gay isn't a big deal.

Though, i am a bit dismayed that the poor dear was celibate for over a century. I really hope he got to have SOME love and enjoyment. Everyone who wants that should have that.

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theamazeeaz
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McGonagall was not a lesbian.

http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/professor-mcgonagall/articles/122536/title/minerva-mcgonagalls-backstory-from-pottermore

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umberhulk
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
It's just, we don't know much about other adult character's sexuality either. McGonagal could have been a lesbian. The book is in 90% Harry's perspective. When does he have time to find out if Dumbledore liked men? When would Dumbledore even MENTION being gay if he's too busy trying to figure out how to kill Voldermort? Does he just go, Oh, by the way, Harry, I am gay, and now let's dive into this memory with Voldermort?

So OSC's complaint was rather silly and had nothing to do with complaining about her suing a fan. Not to mention calling her names just wasn't necessary.

Nevermind
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Synesthesia
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OMG. I love BACKSTORY. I swear the part I like about writing isn't so much writing but making up back story and character details that won't even show up in the finished product!
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theamazeeaz
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Wait, did you not see that before? What kind of rock are you living under?

www.pottermore.com


You're welcome.

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Synesthesia
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I just joined yesterday. This should be fun. I bet I'll end up reading HP again. I already re-read it earlier this year.
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