posted
No, I wouldn't say it to your face. I'd smile and say "okay" but I'd be on my knees praying to God on your behalf that night.
And I know you won't understand this Paul, so it's probably pointless to explain, but I feel like it's something I HAVE to do. I think it's part of my role as a Christian, and something that God wants me to do. Sometimes I pray for people that don't want me to and sometimes I pray for people I don't want to pray for or even like.
Why do it? Well, obedience I suppose. Though I realize my obedience to a Creator you don't believe in means nothing to you. That is why, though I wouldn't stop praying for you if you asked me to.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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No, I do actually understand it... I mean, i recognize that you're supposed to try to "save" people and that can be partially accomplished through prayer, according to christian theology.
I still don't LIKE it, and I hope that turnabout happens someday, just so you can all feel how annoying it is... but I do understand Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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Each person's beliefs are their own, and should be (to a degree) respected. What i mean by "to a degree" is that a cultist who wants to use my liver to worship kinda impedes me. I need my liver, darnit. Especially with my 21st right around the corner.
Religion has always been a sensitive issue. By saying "dont pray for me" it may pass the thought that maybe you're against their beliefs. People do crazy things to protect their beliefs. Jihad, crusades, crucifixion.
My point is, its not like they're asking you to pray with them, so they aren't really placing on you the burden of someone else's religion.
I dunno. I guess there's times when you have to smile and keep your mouth shut, if you want to be a part of "normal society". Or you could fix your problem by reclusing, and not talking to anyone. Then you wouldn't have to hear people talk about praying for you, but it doesn't do much for yourself.
Bluntly, i say just deal with it.
[edit: this post is quite out of time. Pretend it was posted, ohh, 5-7 posts previous. then it might make sense. probly not ] Crazy as always, Psychotriad.
quote:And I know you won't understand this Paul, so it's probably pointless to explain, but I feel like it's something I HAVE to do. I think it's part of my role as a Christian, and something that God wants me to do. Sometimes I pray for people that don't want me to and sometimes I pray for people I don't want to pray for or even like.
Adrian, you poor soul. While I'm sure you won't understand, I must pray to Satan for the recovery of your soul. I know you probably don't want me to, and we may not even like each other, but it's part of my role as a Satanist to pray for lost and uncomprehending souls like yourself. Someday Satan will save your soul, even if you can't understand why during your life.
Now, I do dig Adrian and all, but maybe that attitude can come off as a wee bit self-righteous? Possibly obnoxious? Bordering on the amusingly self-absorbed?
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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So Belle, not only are you disrespecting someone else's religious beliefs, you are willing to lie and be two faced about it, too? That's rather pathetic.
I feel the need to tell you that at my next satanci cult meeting, I'll be "praying" for your soul. After all, you are obviously on the wrong path in life and need Satan's help in making better life choices. And any protestation will only cause the cult to be even more vigorous in our "prayer." We might even have to take it up to the next level and start tracting in your neighborhood. Conversion to my religion would be good for you.
(Joking of course, as I'm not a Satanic cultist, nor particularly care one way or another about what happens to Belle or her soul. But I find it amazing how arrogant Christians are. Who do you think you are? Aren't the Jews the "Chosen People." Even your Bible admits that. So who are to tell a Jew you are going to pray for him? Talk about hubris. He should probably be praying for you to turn your back on your false religion. Just because you all were duped into believing Jesus was the Son of God, it doesn't make it true.)
Posts: 171 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ahh, yes, and I can see how when Belle said that when someone says no, it means she interprets that to mean to do it anyway wasn't baiting. It's not like rape or anything. Paul says no, Belle does it anyway. Yet, I'm the bad guy.
[ January 29, 2004, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: jack ]
Posts: 171 | Registered: Jun 2001
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jeesh now that i go back and re-read this thread, i almost want to delete my post and have nothing to do with it.
You people snip and snipe at eachother so damn much. A serious argument begins, and watchs as dozens of trolls roll out of their piles of feces to bludgeon others with rude comments.
Sometimes people make me sick.
Posts: 271 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Well, Jack, I think you need to re read my post. I said I'd smile and say Okay. I didn't say I'd smile and say "Okay, I won't pray for you." In this case, I consider my "Okay" to mean "Okay, I acknowledge that you've made this request, I won't bother you further with it"
You can pray to Satan all you want to about me, he can't answer those prayers so no big. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Gah. Jack, don't troll -- you and I have the same point, but if you'll notice, there's a distinctly subtler and gentler way I made it. As opposed to "So Belle, not only are you disrespecting someone else's religious beliefs, you are willing to lie and be two faced about it, too? That's rather pathetic."
It's all about the subtlety. Go in quiet, and you'll be in and out before she knows it. While that approach may not be wisest for, say, a sex life, it's definitely applicable in any kind of potentially heated debate.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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For goodness sake someone pick up a foil and go fight with Psycho Triad. He acts like he needs to work out some frustration tonight or something. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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One more point and I'm done on this. I need sleep.
Lalo, if I don't bother Paul face to face anymore with my requests to pray for him - then what business of his or yours is it what I do in my private prayer life?
I would never want to offend Paul to his face, that would be a pretty poor Christian witness, doncha think?
I said I knew he wouldn't understand. And the fact that he doesn't believe in God anyway should mean that whatever I do in my prayer life is the same to him as if I chanted the ingredients of my breakfast cereal out loud.
Like I said, pray to Satan to save my soul. Means nothing to me because I know your prayer would be pointless. My soul is already spoken for, and Big Red can't touch it.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote: Let's put it this way, you belive in God all your life and you die, no heaven, no everlasting life, all that was wasted was an hour every Sunday and maybe some good deeds sprinkled here and there. But lets see the flip side, there is a God, well, you're gonna have whole lot of time to think about your mistake...
this whole deally
Actually, while reading this I remembered trying a similar tactic (read: the same tactic) on someone once. And I had to wonder, how many people have, as a newbie, popped into discussions like this to throw this exact same piece of useless information into a fairly decent topic?
Posts: 264 | Registered: Jan 2002
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You know, with the combination of my religion and my personal outlooks, there are a LOT of things people say to me out of kindness and tact that chill my spine. For instance, something as small as "bless you" when you sneeze was connected with the belief that sneezing meant your soul is trying to escape. Or, as another example, I don't celebrate the Holidays because many of them have pagan origins, but during every, single holiday, it's always "Happy this" or "Merry that". If they're going to be near me for an extended period of time (ie. Workmate, Schoolmate, Neighbor, etc.), I'll let them know that I'm uncomfortable with those phrases. But if it's just a passing stranger, who cares (I just say thank you, though I'm sure never to be the one saying it), as long as they have your best interest in mind? And if it isn't a stranger, how should the person you're conversing with know you're offended by it unless you tell them? Now, if they know you're offended by such phrases, and were making fun of your atheism (as that is what I'm assuming you are - if I'm wrong, sorry), and telling you they would pray for you tauntingly, that's another thing. But that didn't sound like what you're referring to here.
Posts: 2292 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote: For instance, something as small as "bless you" when you sneeze was connected with the belief that sneezing meant your soul is trying to escape
Actually, this has been talked about here before. I think we determined it was actually related to hoping someone wouldn't catch the plague or something. I'll have to look it up.
Edit: Okay, I'm full of crap. It wasn't at Hatrack, it was for my ESL class. Here's a link, anyway.
posted
Really? I could've sworn I picked up a book at my library a few years ago that had explained that it had to do with the departure of souls. If I remember correctly, I believe the book was about the twelfth century or so. Oh well, it may have been one of those phrases that are derived from a number of different sources.
In any case, I'm in no fear of catching the plague because I sneezed, either. Posts: 2292 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
When the alternative is "Did you get any on you?", I don't think I'll get too offended at "Bless you."
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:There are two motivations I can see for someone to say "I'll pray for you."
1. They mean it as a form of comfort. Since they believe that having people pray for an individual will help that individual to cope with their problems, they believe that when you hear those words, they will give you added hope and strength. These people expect that even if you don't believe in the same efficacy of prayer that they do, you will at worst take their words to mean, "I'll be thinking about you," which for most people IS comforting.
2. They use that phrase as a means to make themselves look holy and spiritual. They say it to you, not so that you will feel better, but so that they will look superior to you. The more areligious you are, the more they gain from it.
To add to number two, also to make you feel like you are doing something wrong, are thinking/believing something wrong, or are a generally bad person.
Posts: 346 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I don't think telling somebody else you would pray for them would mean that as much as, say, "Go to hell" or "You have not found Christ yet," or even something like "Do you know Christ?".
Boy, I sure am one for run-on sentences tonight. Yay!
Posts: 2292 | Registered: Aug 2003
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This is actually the main reason I usually don’t say, “I’ll pray for you” unless I know the person I’m talking to is someone who would appreciate it. (On Hatrack or in similar situations. If someone walks into my office at church and tells me their problems, I assume they’re okay with me praying for them.)
Paul, I think an appropriate response would be, “No thank you” or “I appreciate the concern, but I’d rather you didn’t.”
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
The point I'm trying to make is that, whether or not you think that he should, Paul doesn't want people to pray for him and is bothered when they tell him that they are going to. Not suprisingly, when you don't respect that he has his reasons for that, you don't see anything disrespectful about telling him, "I'll pray for you." when he is bothered by it.
Praying for someone when you know they don't want you to is disrepectful, even if you really really think it's the right thing to do. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it. They are more important things than being respectful. However, know that you are direspecting that person and their wishes. What's much worse, though, is when someone has something bad happen to them and you tell them that you'll pray for them, they tell you that they don't want you to, and then you get upset at them or tell them that you will anyway. Make up your mind. Are you trying to help that person out in the way that is right for them, or are you trying to help them out in the way that is right for you?
edit: I'm not saying that you should pretend or do things that you yourself don't really believe in, but it's important to recognize that just because you feel a certain way about something, doesn't mean that the other person that you are ptetty much forcing it on (that's putting it too strongly, but I can't think of another way to put it) should or is going to feel that way about it.
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And I know you won't understand this Paul, so it's probably pointless to explain, but I feel like it's something I HAVE to do. I think it's part of my role as a Christian, and something that God wants me to do. Sometimes I pray for people that don't want me to and sometimes I pray for people I don't want to pray for or even like. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian, you poor soul. While I'm sure you won't understand, I must pray to Satan for the recovery of your soul. I know you probably don't want me to, and we may not even like each other, but it's part of my role as a Satanist to pray for lost and uncomprehending souls like yourself. Someday Satan will save your soul, even if you can't understand why during your life.
Now, I do dig Adrian and all, but maybe that attitude can come off as a wee bit self-righteous? Possibly obnoxious? Bordering on the amusingly self-absorbed?
quote:One more point and I'm done on this. I need sleep.
Lalo, if I don't bother Paul face to face anymore with my requests to pray for him - then what business of his or yours is it what I do in my private prayer life?
I would never want to offend Paul to his face, that would be a pretty poor Christian witness, doncha think?
I said I knew he wouldn't understand. And the fact that he doesn't believe in God anyway should mean that whatever I do in my prayer life is the same to him as if I chanted the ingredients of my breakfast cereal out loud.
Like I said, pray to Satan to save my soul. Means nothing to me because I know your prayer would be pointless. My soul is already spoken for, and Big Red can't touch it.
Belle, methinks you miss my point. For my part, I seriously doubt Satan's en route to steal your soul. But if I did, it's still -- to repeat what I said earlier -- ridiculously self-righteous and self-absorbed of me to not only believe I know better than you do about gods-related matters, but that my intervention's going to save you.
Don't you?
Sure, it's none of my business just how obnoxious you or anyone else are in your private prayer life -- you can pray for God to save the souls of interracial or homosexual couples, and I'm not about to interfere. That doesn't mean I -- the result of an interracial relationship and starter of many -- am necessarily not offended or amused by self-righteousness.
If you pray to God for your own healing, it's fine with me. If a loved one dies and you want your god to help you through it, it's fine with me. Actually, it's right in line with my (and, I believe, Freud's) theory that most people's gods are just father-figure images with a certain set of morals projected on to them. But if and when you assign those father figures responsibility for other people's lives is when you start moving into some pretty hazy territory.
Paul clearly doesn't worship the same gods you do -- to say that your god's going to intervene in his life is to inflate your own importance in the greater scheme of the universe and marginalize both him and his religious beliefs. You cross the line from concerned friend to obnoxious busybody when you insist on informing Paul that you're going to have your god concern himself with Paul's life. Let alone informing Paul he can't understand why you feel obligated to meddle in affairs you were never invited to participate in.
Keeping silent about your religious intervention in Paul's life is at least polite, even if you go to bed each night hoping God gives Paul the wisdom to solve the troubles you think he has, or hoping God gives a homosexual the wisdom to understand that his love is a sin, or hoping God gives a black man the wisdom to understand that God never meant for races to interbreed. However, insisting on having your gods do anything to anyone's life but your own is obnoxiously self-absorbed, as I said above. If your gods are omnipotent, they'll know about his troubles anyway. And if you're wrong about your gods (which, to Paul, you necessarily must be), all you end up being is a woman concerning herself in the problems of others that she was never invited to participate in.
I like to think you're better than that, and I'm sure whoever's thrusting themselves into the solution to Paul's problems believe they deserve a better title than self-righteous busybody, too. I wish they'd act it.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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And I'll have you know I missed valuable conversation time with Squick to write that. My god's going to shorten your life span by that much time so you know how it feels.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I'm down with being prayed for as long as I don't have to answer the door to get it.
Mind you, ever since I've moved into an actual apartment, I've mellowed big bunches about the whole thing.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I honestly don't want to get involved in this topic -- there's a little too much anger flowing in the thread. But when reading this, I thought back to the discussions we've had here in the past about LDS Baptism for the Dead, and the similarities between that topic and this. I know I pondered endlessly about the subject, because I don't know if there's a simple and acceptable answer. I found the old thread here, though it's possible there was more than one. I haven't read through it all recently, seeing as how it's 13 pages.
Belle, I don't mean to pick on you (or anyone else, for that matter), but yours happened to be one of the first responses in the thread. You're completely against someone performing a religious act on your behalf in that case, but you feel not only ok with, but responsible for, praying for someone who doesn't want you to? Do you believe the responsibility felt by that LDS member to be any less than yours?
(Please note -- I'm not taking any sides here, just asking the question.)
posted
I guess I wouldn't tell anyone I was praying for them if I didn't think they wanted me to. I don't think I ever have before. And I tend not to pray for anyone I am not closely connected to--i.e., I don't go up to strangers or acquaintances and ask them out of the blue if I can pray for them. The prayers I make are one way I have of taking care of my own, I guess. They are based on situations I am aware of and involved in somehow, never some general prayers for "God to save their soul."
Of course prayer is much more effective when followed up with support, comfort, understanding, whatever I can provide. There doesn't have to be any preaching involved.
Papa Moose, I saw the connection too, but I personally didn't want to bring the subject of baptism for the dead into this particular thread and have to defend it along the lines of the current discussion. Too much negativity flying around already. This isn't the environment where the discussion will be worthwhile. And it's too late, and I'm going to bed. Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
There are certainly ways to insult by praying for or offering to pray for others.
The Carmelite nuns decided to pray in their nearby chapel for the salvation of all of the souls who experienced Auchwitz. Which displeased a large number of Jews, who saw the Shoah as an ultimate consequence of previous treatment by those who called themselves "christian leaders". And that RomanCatholic officials have no right to pray for the souls of those whom they condemned -- or at least didn't try to help -- in life.
After a preliminary conversation. "Well, why don't you join us at our church meeting on the Sabbath?" "I'm quite happy being a Mormon." "Well, I'll say an extra prayer for you so that Jesus will show you the correct path to salvation."
"The Bible says 'Spare the rod, and spoil the child'." "Nonetheless, I don't believe that whipping children is necessary. Your interpretation lacks reconciliation with the total message." "I'll pray for you."
Sometimes an open curse is less insulting, for being more honest, than a sanctimonious prayer. Especially if "I'll pray for you." appears to be 'getting the last word in': an honest prayer needs no public announcement of the intent to pray.
posted
Hmmm... As a Christian, I have found myself in Paul's shoes. You see, I smoke. And besides just being a probable health risk and all-round stupid thing to do, many in my "Christian community" believe that by doing so I am leading a life of sin. Maybe so. And besides that I've done a few stupid things in my short life that many other Christians (at least those I personally know) see as anti-Christian behavior. Now, I'm perfectly willing to admit that I make mistakes in life (as I'm pretty sure everyone does), but... I hate, hate, hate when someone comes up to me and says they'll be praying for me with the obvious idea that I somehow do not believe in God or something anymore. I realize this isn't exactly the situation Paul is refering to, but I think I understand.
I mean, I think most Christians would take offense if a Muslim said they would pray for them (do Muslims pray for others? -- I don't know much of anything about that religion, I'm just trying to come up with an example mot quite as hyperbolic as Satanism. ). On a knee-jerk reactionary level, I would.
I do pray for others. But I don't say, "I'll be praying for you," to them. I just do it. I've always felt that telling someone you would pray for them -- unless they asked -- unintentionally implies that you are superior to them. I have asked people -- well, only one person, actually -- if I could pray for them, but I never just assume that saying I will would help them in any way. Of course, I don't even like to say, "I'll be thinking of you" or other similar remarks, either. I prefer to actually take some form of action to demonstrate my care if at all possible -- even just having a conversation with them.
Just a few thoughts I had... Great topic, Paul.
Posts: 1295 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote: I would never want to offend Paul to his face, that would be a pretty poor Christian witness, doncha think?
(I think I picked this up from one of Belle's posts)
I'm a more low key person. I know we're not supposed to be ashamed of the Gospel, but I usually say "I'll be thinking about you." If the person knows me very well, they will know that means I'm praying for them. I'm big on soft answers in real life. Anyway, I just don't see where being in folks's faces is a necessary element of being Christian. But then, I know everyone's religious faith is individual.
When my son died, I had a whole huge chip on my shoulder about folks trying to offer sympathy and condolences. I was also quasi anti-agnostic for a while. So I can relate. But I could see that I have a choice of either never telling anything about myself to folks, or else accepting their uncomfortable replies.
Edit: Is there something bad that happened, Paul, or do you think it is a reaction some folks have to your (assumed) unbelief in God? (to be honest, I seldom remember to pray for folks, even the ones who outright ask.)
posted
Well, I can't speak for Belle, but that thread was my introduction to Hatrack -- I signed up to be able to reply to it. Figures, neh?
I see a difference between doing something that is CONTRARY to someone's religion -- something they view as harmful -- and something they simply view as useless.
That said, I would never pray for something for someone else that they did not want. I would pray for someone to find a job if they were looking, for example, but not for them to find God. I would also be very hesitant to pray for someone who specifically asked me not to; and surely would not tell someone I was going to pray for them unless I was pretty sure they would be encouraged/happy to hear it.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
It still may not be obvious to the people talking to Paul that he will be offended.
I mean, perhaps Paul considers himself harmed, and he has that right. But to most people, there's no outward indication that they're harming him, and they're trying to do the opposite. I would guess that they see prayer as the least troublesome thing to do, and then Paul is throwing it back in their face.
I think this may answer his original question, as to why they get mad when he refuses. Something else, they think, might do harm, but how could prayer?
Posts: 1041 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Iccy, I think the big beef about BftD is that baptism is a ceremony that, by definition, negates all previous baptisms. Prayer does nothing similar.
Granted, I think a lot of religions feel that judgement occurs at death, so a baptism years after the fact should warrant nothing more that a roll of the eyes--much like an unwanted prayer should.
But at the same time, it (BftD) seems to me an arrogant thing to do. If you take it at face value, it retroactively removes all free will from the beliefs of the dead. It seems like a very petty technicality, and if I had been less of an "eh, whatever" teenager, I definitely wouldn't have taken part in it.
But I don't really mind people praying for me. I just make sure they know that they're doing it for themselves rather than for me. If you keep replying with "Whatever floats your boat.", eventually, they stop telling you about it. *shrug*
posted
Hey Bob man, I mentioned that thread on page one. Sometimes, I just gotta pretend people read my stuff.
I agree that Belle finds it unacceptable to have LDS baptize her/people she cares about, but finds it acceptable to pray on someone else's behalf in the name of her own religion.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I was a wee little second grader when my maternal grandmother died. It hit me kinda hard because: A) We had a close relationship. B) The I'm praying for your family from everyone hurts more than it helped. Prayer wasn't going to bring her back, Jesus wasn't gonna come down and make it better. But people acted like it would and wouldn't let me just remember the times that I shared with her and my family.(I'm not to big on the food tradition either) A teacher of mine going through the loss of her mother that same year understood what I was going through enough to just sit back and talk. It was much more comforting to hold our loved ones in our hearts and memories by telling stories than to constantly hear "I'm praying for your family."
Recently a friend's dad died. A buddy and I attended the wake and sat with our friend and for a few hours we brought his dad back by just shooting the breeze. All the little league coaching he did, camping, boating, countless other things he did for us stupid punks...the guy was one of the most alive people we ever met and he remains so in our memories. We could actually smile and laugh as we talked about the old days. But everytime an old woman passed by with an "I'm praying for your family." my friend would just kinda zone out and you could see new pain instead of a healing comforting effect the phrase was supposed to convey...
It's because of things like that I never put much stock in the I'm praying for you bit. Even if its sincere it hurts but I still try to say Thank you or in the cases where I've known for sure it was a last word sorta thing(if there is a hell sarcastic blessers will be right next to TV evangelist) "Thank you, I'm sure God loves a brown-noser" is a good ending note.
Posts: 5 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Well, without getting into some of the debate....
I often say this to people. I say "I will pray for you" because it is the one thing I have the power to do, in an otherwise powerless situation. It is the only way I feel I can contribute and show my concern.
So my question now is -- how do I tell which people are going to get offfended? Each time, before I say "I'm going to pray for you" am I supposed to say -- "uh, can I ask you if you believe in God"?
I'm mean -- how do you WANT people with real concern to handle this? I'm asking in sincerity because I don't want to cause offense to another either, but I have simply no way of knowing who would APPRECIATE my prayers, and who would be offended.
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