posted
Happy Camper, to add... I think it's more to do with how well the girl knows the guy. I know my guy friends so well that I know their idiosyncracies. I know they're nice and broken. Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay, here's the deal. Let's say that you are a nice guy, through and through. But the girls you are interested in just don't grab onto you and your niceness.
Let's see, you'd be considerate, caring, active, involved and supportive. And let's throw in that you'd still retain your independence (sometimes the needy claim they are nice, but really aren't), as well as have some ambition, skills and social adeptness.
So, you've got all those things going for you and the girl just doesn't notice you in a romantic way? What? You'd really want a long-term relationship with someone who didn't and couldn't appreciate these wonderful qualities in you???
If you are the nice guy who tries hard and wants to make his way in the world, then just keep making your way and keep being the nice guy. Someday the right woman, one who can and will appreciate you, will come along.
Until then, it's just sophmoric hand-wringing which leads to a very visible hurt sense of self worth. And that's not very attractive except to Florence Nightingales (they will heal and change you) or Prunella Predators (they want you weak and vulnerable to best fit the (hen)pecking order they will establish in the relationship).
The Nice Guys way to success: really be yourself and keep on doing it.
Posts: 472 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes -- I think the level of maturity of the girl has a lot to do with it.
When I was fresh out of high school, my significant other was a very "nice guy" in all senses of the words. Very stable, level-headed, sweet, romantic, just crazy about me, etc. And I was bored to tears!, or so I thought.
I dumped him and later hooked up with "fun" guy -- wild, crazy, unpredictable, etc. Lots of fun -- also very violent, controlling, etc etc. Not a nice guy. Lots of action, lots of dangerous stunts, lots of rebellion, but definately fun. (or so I thought). That got old after awhile.
Now I'm middle aged and looking back can see how much better the "nice-guy" really was -- but in my own immaturity I didn't give him any credit for his strengths.
I would have a lot more appreciation for a nice guy now -- after having spent years with the other types.
posted
Hmm Suneun, you've got a point. I have two good guy friends, who both got married last year. They are a bit older than me. The are both genuinely nice guys, that are drop dead gorgeous, and have enough of an original streak that girls fell at their feet. (I still remember walking down the street in Los Angeles near UCLA in between them and the dirty looks I got from every female that passed by going "How could you be with BOTH of them?!")
The thing was I'm the one who got to hear all of their breakups etc. I knew their major flaws. I saw them in their grubby clothes (something they wouldn't let a gf see for a long time) I had a crush on one for a while. But even during the crush, I knew that the flaws he had would drive me crazy in an actual relationship.
Steve has just as many flaws, no one is perfect. Considering we were friends for over a year before we got together, I knew most of his beforehand as well. But our flaws are compatible flaws, they aren't the same ones as my other friends. My friends' flaws while they were even endearing in a friend of mine, would have driven me up a wall in an actual serious relationship.
That may have a lot to do with the "nice guy" flaw problem. When you know someone so well as a friend, you have to choose which flaws you are willing to live with and which ones you aren't. Especially if you are friends first for any length of time, you might discover the flaws without the rose colored glasses of initial infatuation to make you say "this is a flaw I can live with" And there often is a flaw that is annoying enough, that you just put them in the "non-romantic" box, without pausing to consider all of the advantages that someone could have in a relationship with them, and applying it to yourself. It is easy to point out their good qualities to cheer them up and say that "someone else" will appreciate them someday cause you aren't investing nearly as much personally.
If you're nice and you're interested in me, let me know! Don't be shy! The worst thing I can do is reject you.
Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have to admit that "nice" is not on my list of traits that I look for, and it's not a reccomendation.
Kind, gentle, funny, interesting, smart, principled, passionate, compassionate, and insightful are all on there, but "nice" is nowhere to be found.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I must admit, this conversation is reminding me of a greeting card I saw once. On the cover is some hansome, buff male and it says, "What we are looking for". On the inside, is a picture of a balding middle aged man with a pot belly and says, "What's looking for us."
I will let you meditate on this now.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree. Like I said, nice means doormat. To elaborate, most people use 'nice' as a descriptor for people who are otherwise unremarkable. Not all the time, but definitely some of the time. I know a lot of people who are very nice and who are also interesting and some who are only... nice.
Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
To add my own thoughts, I don't think that card was so much about looks as just a general "survival of the fittest" phenomenon that we see around us. Each individual seeks to "mate" with someone higher up on the chain than they are. They will seek out the best "specimine" they can find that will have them.
Another little funny, the sentiment, "You are the most beautiful woman in the world who would have sex with me."
We laugh at these things, but we laugh because there is a kernal of truth there. As humans and individuals, though, we try not to be so shallow.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
How would you rate the truth of this statement: "Men love the women they are attracted to, women are attracted to the men they love."
Posts: 48 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think it is a stereotype that some fit and some don't. I feel like I myself fit it, but there are women who would say that is not true for them. I think the same is probably true for men. I do, however, wish more men were better at being attracted to the woman they love.
Oh, and on the above "funnies", I think that the sentiment of "lowering your expectations" is too disparaging. I prefer "finding beauty and wonder" where it was not originally apparent; Finding the Prince or Princess in the frog.
posted
Back when I referred to myself as a "nice guy," I was indeed a codependent, manipulative, unctuous milquetoast. I don't know whether that was causative or merely symptomatic of my dating situation at the time -- during which I slept my way through literally countless frivolous and futureless relationships while desperately orbiting the few girls who thought of me as "just a friend" and waiting eagerly for them to get dumped by their current jerk, in case they'd "finally" see the light -- but I suspect that it was a bit of both. (In other words, women who only date jerks but pick nice, stable men as friends turn nice, stable men into sneaky, manipulative jerks out of desperation -- but many men who appear stable would probably appear much jerkier if they didn't have to pretend to be "nice" to get any attention at all.)
It was only when I stopped being a nice guy, I believe, that I became a good person.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think I'm a pretty nice guy and I could care less about whether girls like nice guys or not.
Even if I know, for a fact, that girls prefer jerks, what am I going to do, start acting like a jerk just to get laid?
If you are a nice guy who get rejected a lot, maybe you should ask the question, "why do nice guys go for dumb girls who don't appreciate them?"
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
There was a period of my life (when I was waiting for my future wife to get back to the States so I could court here) when I absolutely didn't care what girls thought of me. I stopped being nice, and started being a jerk. All of a sudden, I became far more attractive to the women around. At the time, I thought it was because I was being a jerk. Now I think that it was because of my confidence.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I dunno why this came to mind, but I am thinking of Star Wars. In the first movie, when there was no hint of incest, Leia had two choices in men. Han Solo, and Luke. There was Leia walking away in disgusted muttering about whether or not Han cares about anyone or anything. Luke responds lamely, "I care." Also, Leia kissing Luke on the mouth to show her approval of him being a "nice guy".
Do you remember the "nice men" convo? "I like nice men!" "I am nice men" *proceeds to kiss the hesitant Leia*. Han was rude, rough, and "uncivilized". What did Han have that Luke didn't? And no fair saying "Luke was her brother, of course she couldn't like him."
My answer? Han was charming. Luke was whiney.
<=== Is a huge Han Solo fan.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
1) You only want to talk about me. 2) Only agree with me 3) Don't really have any interests that you can just talk about. 4) Don't challenge me to be a better person 5) Aren't excited by anything
I've gone on dates with people before and not had a great time. My friends are all baffled by it and tell me so and so is such a nice guy. Sure he may be nice and sure he may even be smart. But, if the entire time we are out you tend to especially just do 1-3 on the first few dates of course I'm not interested. I'm not looking for jerks. In fact I don't like jerks. I'm looking for someone who has some vibrance to his life. I've dated shy geeky guys and had so much fun. It's all about enjoying life and being willing to show that to someone else.
Posts: 872 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
AJ, while you do have a point, and it is a shame that there is one and only one Harrison Ford... of all the roles he has played, Han is still by far my favorite despite Harrison's increasing "sexiness" as time went on. So for me, there is a certain something about that Han character.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
Goodness, silliness, selflessness, loving-kindness, tenderness, nobility, honor, honesty, humility, nonviolence, seriousness, simplicity, tolerance, respect, steadiness, self-control, intelligence, humor, affection, joy. mmmmmmmmmMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm, what could possibly be more attractive than all of that? Nothing could.
Nice guys are mind numbingly hawt.
[ August 11, 2004, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
I see the phrase nice guy bandied about much, but I really want to know what it is that makes them self-identify? Given no other information, I'm going to be forced to fall on Tom, Noemon, and BobthLawyer's explanations.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
And you can certainly do all of the above and still not be a nice guy, much less attractive to go out with.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Generally, when girls I was friends with talked about wanting a nice guy, they were complaining about how their boyfriend (or recent ex...) cheated on them, verbally abused them, ignored them, or otherwise treated them like a spot to put Tab A, rather then as a person.
Since those are characteristics I do NOT have, I have always thought of myself as a "nice guy"
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Then they walk into another relationship with a guy that's so much like the previous one that you start wondering: did she hear herself the last time ?!
<-- nice guy, turned bad, twice, because of being rejected... And is was... a nightmare. I like being a nice guy.
Edit: Nice guy: the one that really cares about a girl, whether or not he wants something from her, whether or not she is his girlfriend. "Excellent friend material. But to date that nice guy ? Neeee, I can do better !"
posted
I agree, Beren, at least for the first two, that is my definition of a "good" or "decent" guy. In my mind, a "nice" guy is someone who isn't obnoxious.
Now, anyone who knows Porter knows that he is both obnoxious and a very decent, good, fellow. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: <-- nice guy, turned bad, twice, because of being rejected... And is was... a nightmare. I like being a nice guy.
Can you honestly say that is because of rejection? I think a nice guy (or "decent" guy) chooses to be nice regardless of what happens to him.
Other than that, Corwin, I am as boggled as you at the behavior of women going through the same bad relationships time after time. I had one *really, really* bad relationship. After that, I dated the most harmless man ever born on the face of the earth. He was an *extremely* good and decent man. And it was sexy. But he wasn't very bright, and that was no good.
Then Porter wooed me. I didn't like his "jerkish" side. But I realized he was just "obnoxious" and that it wasn't the same thing. I also discovered I could trust Porter with my life. He won me over.
posted
beverly, I don't know what you understood there, but what I wanted to say is that I didn't give up on those girls when I should have, and thus, made there lives misserable. Now, from somebody who says he loves you, that's pretty bad, stupid, idiotic, don't you think ? Well, I did it. And it took me 3 years to fully realize it. I thought I was "right" in doing the things I've done until I figured out there's really no right or wrong in this kind of matters. You have no right to be loved. You have no duty to give love. It's just the way it is.
It was quite frightening once I realized what I've done... Fortunately, one of the girls passed over this, and is currently my best girl friend. The other one, on the other hand, has almost completely broken all contact with me and that hurts. Because I would have at least wanted to remain friends, but I know that she has every right to be mad at me and act the way she does...
Edit: I guess you thought "turned bad" was about acting like a jerk towards everybody. Well, I didn't, I did it only with the ones I loved... Much, much better...
posted
bev, about "women going through the same bad relationships time after time":
I don't know much about the dating habits of women who are 25-30-40, but I know a little about girls. Sometimes, the "jerk" opens a little more to you than to others. But he is, ultimately, a jerk.
An example I think I already posted: A girl fell in love with a smoking, drinking, cursing, (have to admit this ->) intelligent jerk. Who, even after they started their relantionship was telling everybody that he has another girlfriend back in Romania. The girl finaly found out. Did she dump him ? No ! She accepted his explanation that he loves her and the other one was just... Don't know really, but he said he'd brake up with the other one. Phase one...
Later, I found out that the guy DID NOT break up with his other girlfriend ! So, naturally, I thought any intelligent girl would get out of such a relationship ! She did... Only to, later, come back to him.
EDIT: I forgot to say that somewhere in between he was at a(n apartement) party by himself and was seen by many kissing with another girl. How cool is that ?!?
I have a (male) friend who loved this girl. A "nice guy". But all he could be to her was "her best friend". The one to whom she would tell much more than to her boyfriend.
Now, the only way I can explain this is: LOVE IS BLIND ! I discovered such blindness in myself too, but I'm working on driving it out. I never liked loosing control of my mind and body, I don't like it even for the "high purpose" of love...
posted
A lot of "nice guys" complain that they can only remain a girl's friend and can never advance to the next stage.
But that complaint implies that the "nice guy" is not really satisfied with just being friends with the girl; the friendship is just a cover until he can make his move.
So are people like that really nice guys?
Maybe that is the appeal of the jerk. Like that obnoxious guy said in Swingers, it is so much more money to be straightforward and honest with your agenda.
Edited to add: Corwin, this is not a response to your thread or a criticism of your friend. I posted this before reading your post.
[ August 11, 2004, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sorry, Corwin. I didn't know what you meant by "turned bad". It did indeed sound like you were saying you became a jerk because of rejection, and that wasn't making sense to me. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Beren : As I said before, I think they still are nice guys if they treat girls nicely no matter how close they want to get to them. I acted like that, and me and my (only) ex-girlfriend were best friends before getting together. Anyway, it was her who fell in love with me first, but didn't act on it because I was so obviously (for her) attracted to the other girls.
And there are other girls who I consider among my best friends, girls I've never thought of as possible girlfriends. Because they had a friend, or because of lack of similar interests, or from other causes, including the simplest one: I did not feel anything for them that could have been categorized as at least an incipient form of love.
bev, don't worry, as you can see in the edit of my other post, I finaly understood what you were thinking I said.
Paul, that's true. But the "nice guy" also does something else: he tries not to start a relationship without knowing that person a little better. That can make him lose tons of occasions though, in front of guys who "know what they want".
And, probably even more important, a "nice guy" tells a girl when it's no longer working between them. He doesn't turn into a jerk in order to get rid of the girl. He doesn't start seeing someone else while waiting for the girlfriend to finaly get it that it's over.
And a "nice guy" doesn't try to break another relationship in order to have the girl. Me, if I hear a girl I'm interested in already has a boyfriend, I back off immediately. And I've seen so many guys do the opposite AND obtain what they wanted that it just makes me mad... I'm talking mainly about guys taking advantage of the fact that the girl had a long distance relationship, so she didn't see her boyfriend very much. Of course, those things couldn't have happened without the girls' tacit approval, but still, it doesn't seem right to me to temp someone who's in an already difficult situation.
Yes, one could say that a "nice guy", as defined by me, is the same as a "decent human being". So what ? Should he be different ?!
quote: And a "nice guy" doesn't try to break a relationship in order to have the girl. Me, if I hear a girl I'm interested in already has a boyfriend, I back off immediately.
I agree with this, if all you are looking for is a girlfriend. That used to be part of my own personal code of honor.
But then when I found somebody I wanted to marry, the gloves came off. It was no longer a game -- it was a fight for our life together.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, then I'm lucky I didn't find someone I would marry with who already had a relationship, am I not ?
And another thing: while I don't really think about marriage right now, I've never considered the girls that I loved to be just "girlfriend" potential and no "marrying" potential. It was more like: "I'd be so lucky to be with her !" And then, "forever" just added naturaly at the end of the sentence... Maybe it's because I was "already" 20 when I found love for the first time. Or maybe I'm just too serious about this, but that's who I am.
quote: But then when I found somebody I wanted to marry, the gloves came off.
"I would do anything for love... But I won't do that !" (I think...)
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, I was in love with another man. But he was on the other side of the planet. Porter had no intention of giving in just because of that. He confessed his feelings for me and let me decide at his own personal risk.
And, hey, girls like it when guys are willing to fight for them.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
: As I said before, I think they still are nice guys if they treat girls nicely no matter how close they want to get to them. I acted like that, and me and my (only) ex-girlfriend were best friends before getting together. Anyway, it was her who fell in love with me first, but didn't act on it because I was so obviously (for her) attracted to the other girls.
