posted
Y'all have said some amazing things on this thread, and I don't think I can address even a bit of what's already been discussed.
The one point I wanted to make was how critically important it is for you to be able to derive spiritual satisfaction from your church. If you do not, it is time to look elsewhere. Church has to be a safe and loving place for you.
One of the biggest issues about the child molestation cases in the Catholic church (I know I shouldn't have brought it up, but it's really germaine) is how people in a position of trust (the priests) betrayed that trust. Your church needs to be a place where you feel you can trust the hierarchy. I guess I equate spiritual satisfaction with trust.
I know I'm not stating this with anything like the clarity the others (AJ, you're awesome)have shown. I hope it's another somewhat valuable point of view for you.
posted
This is a tough situation, and was a decision that I had to make in high school
The pastor at my church left, and was replaced with an interim minister. At the time I was becoming very disillusioned with the church due to some things that had happened under the previous pastor. Unfortunately, the things that had happed were caused by some of the Elders that would be choosing the new pastor. As the search went on, I decided that I needed a split from the church. The rest of my family, while not happy with the situation, felt that it was best to stick around at least until the pastor was found.
I just felt that that church was not the right place for me, and was unlikely to become the right place for me even if they did find a new minister. This was a tough decision for multiple reasons. First of all, leaving your family’s church is a tough thing to do. Secondly, because I was leaving the church that I was born into. There were also many people who I cared about that I would be leaving behind. Regardless, I felt that it was the right decision (and the best decision for my relationship with God). I found a new church, where I stayed for a year. While I was happy there, the rest of my family did not feel that it was right for them. After about a year, the rest of my family decided to move to a new church and a new denomination (Methodist). After attending their church, I decided that I felt comfortable there, and so even though I was happy with my current church I would move to the church of my family so that we could once again be together. It was a tough call, but in the end I decided that a family should worship together if at all possible.
I no longer live in the same city as my parents, so I have found a church in my current location (Methodist as well) but I still go to my family church when I am visiting my parents.
I don't know if this helps you at all, but at least it shows that it is a tough decision that requires a lot of prayer and thought but it is a decision that a lot of people have had to make. I think that if you feel that you don't belong in a church, you should leave regardless of your family. When you find a new church, you should encourage your family to try it out to see if they feel that it fits them better as well. I do think it is good for a family to attend the same church, but sometimes that is simply not possible. You should not remain at a church where you don't feel at home. I feel that remaining at a church where you feel uncomfortable can be detrimental to your relationship with God. Church should be a place where you can feel comfortable worshiping God. If that is not the case, then perhaps God wants you to be somewhere else.
While I did not end up staying at the church that I went to after leaving my original church, I still think that it was the right decision to make. Even though I only spent a year there, I still believe that the year I was there strengthened my relationship with God.
posted
Sara, I would counsel her in many ways like the fantastic jatraqueros already have. Continue to pray and seek guidance, look for ways to minister in the way she feels led outside the church if the church won't let her, and try to be patient and see if the doctrinal issues are resolved and a new pastor is brought in that might be more open to explore the areas of ministry she feels drawn to.
However, I would also understand how hard it is to do, because emotions are not something you can just lay aside.
My husband has asked me (again) if I would let him call the assistant pastor and discuss some of the specific issues I've had trouble with. I told him that if he thought it would do some good, I have no objection.
In the meantime, he asked me to write down the reasons I feel like I should leave, and then write down the reasons I want to or feel like I should stay. He said that's for him, so he (my husband) can understand my feelings, and also for my benefit as it might help me sort things out.
So that's what I'm going to do.
I appreciate everybody, because most of this is emotional, not rational. It helps to see you guys offering rational solutions, and it really helps to hear from those of you who can offer some sympathy and understanding for the sheer burden of pain and rejection that I'm dealing with. When you're hurting, it can be hard to be rational, and that's one of my major struggles with making the decision.
When I finish writing everything out, I may post it or I'll email it to anyone that would be willing to read it and offer feedback.
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posted
Doc raises an excellent point. Spiritual needs are the foremost thing you go to church for. If there are social and intellectual needs that are also met, great but that is not the main reason you are there. It can be hard. My shoe shopping needs are not being met in my marriage, but I stay because of my emotional needs.
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posted
Belle, I can't offer any advice beyond what others have already said, but I am curious about what the alternatives would be for you. Would it be that there is another church of basically the same denomination near enough that you can get to it, or would you have to go further afield whether geographically or spiritually?
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If you leave, does that make them right? Reminds me of when Kat tried to persuade me not to leave Hatrack.
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amira, there are others nearby, this is the Bible belt it's hard to turn a corner without tripping over a church. Granted, most of them are southern Baptist, which has a doctrine I don't completely subscribe to, but there are options.
There is one that is just as close as this one geographically that has a doctrine that completely lines up with ours...but has very few children and not much of a children's ministry. So we might have to go a little further afield geographically.
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posted
I think the most important thing is that you are being spiritually uplifted, nurtured and feel guided by the Divine, in whatever church or religious community you belong to, otherwise it is hindering your family and therefore future generations, and hindering you soul...and it's your soul that matters because that's all you've got in the next stage of existence.
and if the doctrine of a particular church does not sit right with you, go back to the words of Christ and take it from there, anything else is human interpretation.
I'm a Baha'i, so i can't quote Bible verses, but this quote is a reminder for me at least that the most powerful things is to maintain your direct link with God, and always go back to the Words that were Spoken.
"...the healer of all thine ills is rememberance of Me, forget it not. Make My love thy treasure and cherish it even as thy very sight and life." Baha'u'llah
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posted
When do you decide to leave a church? When you are confident that it is no longer where God wants you to be. Because, in the end belonging to the Church shouldn't be about whether or not you get along with the other members or like the pastor. It shouldn't be because you feel comfortable there are agree with everything that is said. Ultimately, belonging to a church is about the relationship between you and God. Maybe God wants you stay in your church because of what you have to contribute, or because of what you have to learn. Maybe he wants you to leave because he has more to offer you than you can get in the church you are attending and maybe there are reasons that I haven't thought of yet. But if you leave the church and God wanted you to stay or you stay when God wanted you to leave, then the whole point of attending church is lost. The most important point of attending any church is to worship God and if you are not following his will in attending how can you truly worship him?
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My husband spoke to the assistant pastor, who is our leader until we get hire a new pastor.
He basically told my husband that everything that I felt was a problem was my imagination, and gave out a ton of excuses. Most of them were pretty lame. Like, they didn't accept my offer of help to write a press release about the changing of our name (a big deal for a 125 year old church, and something the local newspaper had already said it would be interested in publishing an article about)because we hadn't changed the sign outside front yet. But, at the time, I was told they didn't need my help because someone else had already written it. To this date, no one has sent a press release at all and we changed the name months ago. *shrug*
My mom asked me what did I expect? Two men were trying to solve a problem neither one believed existed. So the sum result is my husband thinks it's all solved, and I should be glad everything is now cleared up, and I think the real problems still haven't been addressed, and probably won't be. So we still have a difference of opinion about whether or not we should be looking for a new congregation.
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posted
Belle, don't kill me, but I have an opinion (and you did ask).
I know that you like writing and books, and that you want to serve the Lord with the talents you have. That completely makes sense, and the incidents you have mentioned (press release, plays, library) fit in with what you said you wanted to do. However, your offers have been rebuffed, and that hurts. Perhaps part of that is that you feel that you could use your talents more than you are now, and that means looking for a new church.
I think church should not be a place for ambition or where you look for the place to use your talents. If you want to use those talents, it isn't your church's responsibility to provide you with a place to do it - what's important is serving where you are asked and where the Lord wants you to. You can use those talents in service of the Lord outside of the church your family attends.
[ January 12, 2005, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
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posted
At this point, though, I’m guessing it’s not even so much the not appreciating Belle’s talents as the lying (or at least sending seriously conflicting messages) about it that’s getting to her.
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quote: My mom asked me what did I expect? Two men were trying to solve a problem neither one believed existed.
Belle, I didn't quite follow. Is this only what your mom thinks or do you think your husband has swept it under the rug, as well? I just caught up on this and read how he asked you to write everything down so he could understand your thoughts. I was going to post what a great guy he was, but then I read your last post.
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posted
hmm, I don't know. Does your husband *really* not think the problem exists?
Did you write your list for him? I mean if there are as many little things as you say, surely he could see how they add up over time.
Now that he *has* talked to the assistant pastor, and the press release still hasn't been written, and the sign is up I assume. Why not write the press release, and submit it for approval and see what they do?
AJ *grumble, stupid civil engineers like zgator beating me to my own thoughts*
quote:I think church should not be a place for ambition or where you look for the place to use your talents.
Maybe not ambition (and I don't think that describes Belle), but church is certainly a place to use your talents. I think the church does have some responsibility to helping its members develop and use their God given gifts. It's ministering to them by helping them minister to others.
posted
I see the people kind of as a bank - your talents at the disposal of church, but the church isn't required to use them. Like music - someone is musically talented but asked to teach Sunday School - that's fine. The musical person can find other ways to express themselves, but right now what's needed is a Sunday School teacher. Especially if there are several musical people in the congregation.
quote:I think the church does have some responsibility to helping its members develop and use their God given gifts.
I think it's this statement that I disagree with. Church is there to bring us closer to Christ and to provide a warm place for spiritual growth, but things like developing individual talents are...bonuses if they happen at church, but ultimately up to the individual.
[ January 12, 2005, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
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posted
In a way, I kind of agree that God gives you your talents, and they should be available to the church, but one can't expect that they will be needed and used all the time. But considering that most of the things Belle listed were things that other people were allowed to do but not she, I think she has a right to be hurt. It isn't like they said, "We don't have a need for drama right now," but rather, "We don't want YOU to do our drama."
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posted
Part of growing closer to Christ is growing in discipleship and service. In that sense it is part of the church's mission to help members discover, develop, and use, their particular gifts.
posted
Maybe there is a reason your talents aren't being used. Maybe the Lord has another use for you or different lesson for you to learn. Maybe, instead of trying to help at church, you are there to learn patience and strengthen your faith in face of adversity, to learn to put the needs of your family/church ahead of your own needs. It could be that there is a reason you just don't know about yet.
Or I could be wrong.
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*shrug* Okay. I agree it would be nice, but I don't think the lack of it is a reason to uproot.
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Hmmm, there is probably some happy medium between the "suck it up and deal and make lemonade out of lemons" and the "not happy so leave" lines.
Finding that balance is the thing. Belle, it sounds like, has been trying to do the former for a considerable amount of time. However being constantly rebuffed in every area you volunteer can eventually quench one's spiritual life.
Remember LDS folks, this church doesn't run on the same sort of "callings" principle from the priesthood authority that yours does, generally the participation is more voluntary and most other churches are always shorthanded in some area. So when one volunteers where there is clearly a need, or has the idea for a new ministry and is then rebuffed and the idea taken away and run with by others, it is a different ball of wax.
posted
I think that the Church is a place that should encourage people to use their God-given talents. If a church has 14 good musicians, why can’t they use all of them? Together or in a rotation. There are ways to allow as many people as possible to serve in ways they want to. Belle seems willing and able to help in many ways. I do not think it is unreasonable for her to get to pick which ways every so often.
Belle, does your husband really not think there is a problem? As others have said, before your last post it seemed like he was being supportive.
It does not seem like this is just an issue of you getting to do what you want to do. It also seems like they are not treating you very well. A church congregation should be supportive and kind, not discouraging.
I hope that you can reach a good decision for you and your family.
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posted
My thoughts are that the church should do its best to use people where there talents lie. I agree that it can't always do this, but I believe they should make an honest attempt. Just because a Sunday school teacher is needed, doesn't mean that's the right job for someone. Teaching might not be a talent they have.
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It sounds like you do have a good husband, but it is hard even for a spouse to understand exactly how things sound and feel to you simply because he is not in your head thinking your thoughts. He has not witnessed himself much of what you've experienced, but heard you talk about it.
I can't make any statement as to what is and is not occuring. But women in a congregation really do have quite a bit of power with their spouses and it wouldn't suprise me if there was some opposition there. You may not quite 'fit the mold' to these women, and their attitudes towards you are conveyed to those making the decisions. As was said by AJ, I think, they may not even be aware of it. You are simply someone different enough that it is uncomfortable and they move around you without thinking.
These things often take a long time to resolve. Years, even.
And it may be that God wants you to share your talents not simply with the small group of your church, but with a much larger Christian community. Do not rely on the church to supply you with an output for your calling.
As far as doctrinal issues go, those do not seem to be resolved. But this may make a difference. I do not think I could be active in a church that has any doctrine substantially different from my own.
The way church communities are built outside of a highly organized religion is a very foreign thing for us LDS people. We are used to simply going to the congregation of our geographical location and doing what is needful there. A bishop, the leader of our congregation, is released and a new one installed at the same time. There is no committee to interview possibilities. This is the same with every other calling, and often it has nothing to do with the talent of the person.
It seems to me that Christian churches are very different settings, and different rules may apply to them. The pattern of suggesting a program and being rejected but ideas being used later is somewhat distressing, and doesn't feel very Christian to me. The reaction of the pastor's assistant doesn't feel as if the feelings of every member is important. I think these particular attitudes need to be taken into consideration. However, it really is true that people aren't perfect.
In the end, all you can do is control your own actions and your reaction to other people. It is more between God and you how you interact, love, and forgive people their weaknesses than between you and they.
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posted
Correllary question: What do you say to someone in your church who verbalizes their disappointment in the church? I run into it all the time and always find myself tongue-tied. If it's just personality conflict, that's one thing, but when there's real disappointment and hurt, I never know what to say or do.
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quote: Remember LDS folks, this church doesn't run on the same sort of "callings" principle from the priesthood authority that yours does, generally the participation is more voluntary and most other churches are always shorthanded in some area.
I was trying to think up something to this effect, AJ. In the LDS church we deal with the oversights because we know the congregation leader isn't being paid by our donations. We know he is grateful to serve but will be glad it's over about his calling just like we are. I know pastors don't make a lot, but it's the difference, I suppose, between a restaurant with wait service and a cafeteria.
Belle, I'd add that you need to make your disatisfaction clear to your husband.
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posted
Belle, I agree with those who say the lying is a real issue. It sounds like you really do not feel comfortable or welcome in your own church. Honestly, the leadership of your church is treating you in a way that is decidedly un-Christian. It sounds like this has been going on for a long time. I commend you for putting up with it for the sake of your family! But I personally see nothing wrong with checking out other churches, to see if there is one that your family would like and in which you would feel more welcome. Maybe you won't find that, maybe things will change, but in the meantime you can at least see what else is out there.
I have a few friends who switch churches fairly often. Seems to work for them.
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posted
Belle, one thing that stands out to me is that the pastors of your church are just sweeping your concerns under the rug and saying any concerns have to be in your imagination. That saddens me; your faith is so important to you, and yet you are not being treated very respectfully.
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posted
It bothers me when people go from church to church. I guess they have to do what works for them, but in that situation they are never going to be happy in one until they learn to be content in general.
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posted
My husband does think there is a problem, he does recognize that in his words "mistakes were made, and people did things or said things to you they shouldn't" But, he doesn't get why it hurts my feelings so badly.
He thinks there is always a good excuse for what happened, and that it's just my abominable luck or something that they always seem to coincidentally happen to me.
I did write out my list. I emailed it to him so he could read it before he spoke with the assistant pastor (my hubby was at work) but he wasn't able to download the file, and the pastor called him, so he wound up going into it before reading my list.
The excuses and what appears to be lying is a concern. Another example is when our new youth pastor came, he asked for volunteers of people who would be willing to have the youth congregate in their homes one or two nights a month. I volunteered, because we had recently finished our basement and I thought it was a perfect place to have folks over, and I always enjoy being around the youth, I'd love to have them in my house. The youth pastor enthusiastically accepted my offer and said he'd be in touch. He never called me back, I tried calling him several times. I tried to talk to him at church, and for some reason he always had somewhere else to go when I walked toward him. The youth met in different homes than mine.
When I finally did get him to a place and ask him about it (not confrontationally, I just asked if he still needed anyone to open up their homes for meetings) and he told me he remembered that I had volunteered but would rather work with parents who had kids in the youth or close to it. Strange statement that, since my daughter will be in the youth group next year, and the homes they are meeting in now include that of one person who doesn't have any children at all.
That kind of thing is upsetting, I feel like it's something wrong with me, and me alone. It's happened more than once, in fact, it's a pretty good pattern. Here is an excerpt of what I wrote to my husband:
quote:It’s a “piling on” effect, one humiliation on top of another, until the sum result is I have to bolster myself, internally building up strength every time I cross the threshold. Instead of being a place where I can come to worship God and fellowship with other believers, it’s become a place that makes me feel like less of a person.
quote:It bothers me when people go from church to church. I guess they have to do what works for them, but in that situation they are never going to be happy in one until they learn to be content in general.
It bothers me too, which is why I've spent over five years trying to fit in here before getting to this point.
I don't know, I don't really think the realtionship between me and this church is salvageable. My husband though, says he thinks the talk with the assistant pastor was encouraging and thinks I should keep trying to make things work.
I'm so tired, though. I am having a hard time mustering up the willingness to stay with it.
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posted
Oh Belle, that must be so difficult. Church should always be a haven.
I hope your husband reads that and understands. I'm sure it is hard for him to let go of the church if it is a community where he feels supported. But if you can help him see that it is such a different experience for you, then perhaps you can come to a concensus on this.
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posted
Belle, have you considered showing Wes this thread? Maybe if he sees what people outside the situation have to say, it'll give him a new perspective.
I'm so sorry that you're going through this and I wish that there was something that I could do to help.
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quote: Correllary question: What do you say to someone in your church who verbalizes their disappointment in the church? I run into it all the time and always find myself tongue-tied. If it's just personality conflict, that's one thing, but when there's real disappointment and hurt, I never know what to say or do.
Sometimes just listening can mean so much. Sometimes people just need to vent. But if they are saying something you feel you must openly disagree with, I think that can be done tactfully as well.
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posted
Belle, it really does sound like something "fishy" is going on. I am sorry. I hope that your husband can come to understand your concerns better. I think it would be great if he read this thread.
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posted
Not to sound too mysterious, but do you leave the Church or does Church leave you?
I was born and raised Catholic, and I go to mass occasionally, but not regularly. And there is no possible way I believe everything that the Catholic Church teaches, but I respect them for it. Then again, there is quite possibly no Church that I would believe everything that is taught as sacred or as doctrine.
I just hope you and your family could find solace in your Church.
To quote The Honda Motor Company:
Simplify.
(Life is complicated enough! )
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posted
Well, last night I went to church, and basically got mad and stomped out.
While eating supper (we have Weds. night dinner at the church) the asst. pastor came and asked my husband to stand up and tell everyone how positive this debate over the doctrine has been, because it's caused us to learn so much. I don't view this situation as positive in the least.
Last week, he asked us to stand in front of the congregation, identified us as believers in a more conservative doctrine that he was, and then proceeded to tell everyone why we were wrong and why it was stupid to think the way we did.
Now, let's keep in mind that Wes and I line up with the stated doctrine of the church, so the pastor is basically putting down the doctrine of the church he works for!
At any rate, it was upsetting and humiliating and it made me very angry, mainly because he wasn't even correct in the statements he made. You guys know me well enough to know that I won't back down from what I believe and I'm not afraid to be the only person in a room (or a forum) that believes something. I've had my beliefs ridiculed many times, here and elsewhere, and while it may upset me, (I won't lie,) it doesn't devastate me.
However, if you're going to make an example of me and put me up for public scorn for my beliefs, you'd better have your facts straight about what I believe. That wasn't the case last week - he said things that were not only common misconceptions that a seminary trained pastor should know better than to believe, but some things were just out and out wrong. And he did not give us a chance to correct the misconceptions, he told us that "You don't get the opportunity to rebut, maybe at another time I'll let you speak."
So, that was the "last straw" the one thing that made me really feel like I've had enough.
And he wanted my husband to tell everyone how much we appreciated him bringing it up, because it motivated us to study the scriptures more.
Yes, it did motivate me to study, but I didn't appreciate the circumstances in the least. So, when my husband basically said "sure, whatever you want" I got mad and decided it would be best if I weren't present for this particular service and I left, coming back when the service was over to pick my family up.
At that time, the asst. pastor cornered me and wanted to talk to me in his office, and I told him now was not a good time. I tend to be very vicious when I'm defensive, it's a character flaw, but I can lash out and be very nasty to people when I'm hurt by them. So, I reasoned it would be best not to talk to him while I felt this way, but do it another time when I was calmer.
So my husband says if I'm not even willing to want to try and make this work, we may as well go ahead and leave. :sigh:
I responded by giving him the names of the top three churches I wanted to visit.
He still doesn't think we should leave though, feeling that we should wait and see what the new pastor, when he's hired, is like. Maybe things will get better.
Considering the asst. pastor is on the search committee and most of the members publicly have acknowledged that they line up with him doctrinally, I doubt the doctrinal issue will be fixed when a new pastor is hired.
In spite of making things better, hubby going to talk to the asst. pastor seems to have made things worse. I'm ready to throw in the towel, and my husband isn't. We're still where we started.
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This is way out of line. I think finally your husband was able to see that.
I hope you do visit some other churches. I know it is very hard to uproot, though, from long-time friends, especially for your kids if they are involved in the church much.
(If you were down here, I would certainly invite you to my church) That would be great!
posted
(((Belle))) I hope you can find peace. I think the pastor should be more sensitive to your concerns. I thought a pastor was responsible for the spiritual welfare of all his parishoners, not just those who completely agree with him.
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quote: Last week, he asked us to stand in front of the congregation, identified us as believers in a more conservative doctrine that he was, and then proceeded to tell everyone why we were wrong and why it was stupid to think the way we did.
Why in the world is this not bothering Wes as well?
quote: So my husband says if I'm not even willing to want to try and make this work, we may as well go ahead and leave. :sigh
Make sure Wes knows why you wouldn't talk to him. I've done stupid things like this with my wife before, as well, and always felt really bad afterwards for not trusting her instincts instead of thinking she was the bad guy.
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posted
If someone put me in front of an audience and criticized my beliefs without giving me a chance to rebut, I'd be mad as a wet hen. That's incredibly rude and, in my opinion, not something a congregation should tolerate in a pastor. Perhaps the next pastor will be an improvement, but to me it sounds as if the problem is larger than a single individual.
posted
No, our pastor has been gone for some months. This is the asst. pastor that is currently leading us until we hire someone new.
Wes doesn't see the doctrine as being too big of an issue because we agree on so many more points than we disagree on. And truly, I hate to hear of congregations splitting over things that don't have much import in the grand scheme. I mean, if you're both evangelical protestant Christians, and you have a doctrinal issue, you already agree on so many other things, it's almost as if you're inventing things to disagree over.
Like most of my family is southern Baptist. I disagree with the southern baptists on certain points, but they are still Christian, and so am I. When you're disagreening over eschatological views, and debating amillennial covenant theology vs. premillennial dispensationalism, well, most of the congregation doesn't know the terms, or even cares. So, it's not enough of a reason in and of itself to leave a church over those types of doctrinal differences (at least, not to me, I admit congregations have split over such things many times in the past)and when you're interested enough to dig that deep, and take it to that level, you'd be hard pressed to find a church that lines up with you identically in every way anyway.
The doctrinal issues by themselves might not be reason to leave, but I feel like on top of my other problems with this church, they are. Unfortunately, my husband doesn't see it that way.
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posted
Bellle, I don't blame you for stomping out. Singling you out that way is just so disrespectful.
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posted
Belle, from your last post, I know that if it was me, I'd leave. I hope that you at least make Wes let the family visit those other churches a couple times each. Even if it's your church one week, visiting the next, etc., I think that the simple act of moving forward to visit other places will help you cope with waiting to actually leave and find a new congregation.
It's really tough that you and Wes aren't agreeing on this. I've been thinking about your situation for several days now, and it just makes me sad and frustrated for you. So I can just imagine how you're feeling. *sigh* I sure hope you two can work this out with minimal pain on either side.
Posts: 3214 | Registered: Apr 2002
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![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I am having a hard time mustering up the willingness to stay with it.
