posted
The police recommended I watch out my window at 5:00, find out who it is, and go kick his ass myself. Works for me.
In other news, I have once again confirmed my emotional eating tendencies, going straight from the police station to my second favorite bakery for a chocolate croissant.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
EL, do you think they would have given that same advice if you were writing down what was said and who said it? Did you do that? Did you mail two copies to yoursef? I need to relax.
Posts: 666 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wait, what? They suggested you go out there and "kick his ass?" I don't know that that would be the best alternative.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not annoyed by the particular phrasing, Farmgirl. If they actually said anything like 'You handle the guy.', I think that's kind of lame.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sounds to me like they think he doesn't sound threatening and that they think she is the sort of person who can handle it by confronting him (rather than by literally kicking his butt). But they probably see more serious and creepy threats from weirdos on a regular basis.
It's like when doctors are so accustomed to seeing serious injuries that they poo poo anything less.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's like when I walked up to some cops in front of a 7-11 and asked if I could have a moment of their time. I told them that there was this !$@#$ rooster that lived next door to me that kept on crowing at all hours of the day and night, and what could I do about it? One officer told me that I should get some roaches, spray them with roach spray, then dump them into the yard next door.... I kid you not.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Besides, confronting him is just giving him the attention he wants. I think you'd be better off to ignore him but be on your guard.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
If she confronted him and ended up beating this guy up, I wonder if she could use "the police told me to" as a defense.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bev, I don't think you've [met] ElJay. I can't imagine anyone telling her, in particular, that unless they meant it literally or were entirely clueless as to reading personalities.
posted
Clueless the police may be, but ElJay is not. She’s not going to look for an opportunity to go butt-kicking. As our long ago karate instructor told us – you don’t use violence unless you’re willing to kill the other person.
And so far this doesn’t rise to that level.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Maybe he just wants positive feedback and she should just leave him a note with the Hatrack address on it. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay, I've tried to post this twice now, and having been having problems with hatrack...
Um, kick his ass yourself was the actual phrasing. But no, that's not all they said. I just have a bad habit of leaving things out if it makes my statement more amusing.
And I'm sorry, I expected to be able to get back and elaborate a lot sooner. Silly work got in the way.
Okay... basically, they said that while they certainly understood why this would freak me out, there has been no crime committed and there's not much they can do. The officer I spoke to made a copy of the letter and took my phone number, and said he would pass it on to the community policing department, and that there was a possibility that they could send someone by around the times mentioned to see if anyone passed through the alley walking a dog & looking at my house. They would then be able to stop that person and ask them a few questions, as that would be reasonable suspicion. But he wasn't sure if they'd be able to do that.
Short of that, he told me I could watch and call 911 if I saw someone walking their dog in the alley. I pointed out that would be ridiculous, as it could be someone completely innocent and it would be unliekly they could get a squad there in time anyway. He agreed with me. He also said the watch & kick his ass yourself line.
As far as violence goes... I have shot a gun. I don't believe in keeping firearms for your protection, as I think they are a lot more likely to be used against you, and there are very few situations where I would be willing to kill someone. Only if my life or another's was threatened. And, like Dana said, if you're going to use violence, you pretty much have to use overwhelming force.
If I felt threatened, I think I would use that force. I doubt it will come to that. I will not be taking any chances.
I will be going home early today and watching out my back window around 5. If someone comes through that I recognize as someone I've talked to a few times, at least them I'll know who I'm dealing with, and be able to make a better judgement on the appropriate actions. I have no plans to confront anyone at this juncture.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
If he doesn't get any attention, then he will keep pursuing (I suspect). This also makes it difficult to enforce anti-stalking measures, if he "doesn't know you didn't want the attention."
My thoughts:
He probably won't be walking the dog. No need for the red/blue towel then -- you could just meet him. I bet it's more a matter of he'll check but stay hidden, that is, unless he is a neighbor with a view of your back porch.
You need to tell him in no uncertain terms that any further attention of any kind (notes, gifts, trash, phone calls) is unacceptable and that you've already spoken to the police about this. The best scenario would be to have an officer with you to confront him. Unfortunately, the police aren't wanting to get that involved yet, and he might not show up anyway.
What I'd do is take a large manilla envelope and put a typed letter in it that specifies the above. Don't sign it, because he could do nasty things with a copy of your signature. Hang the manilla envelope prominantly from your doorknob. Watch, and if you see a guy walking a dog in the alley at 5pm or 10pm (probably not, but you never know), march up to him and give the speech. Have friends nearby, just in case, and take a cell phone that will let you call the police from that site if he starts to bluster.
If he does come with the dog, then he'll probably deny it. Doesn't matter, even if this guy happens to be an innocent bystander. The point will get made, whether it's really the creep or the creep himself is just watching. Go all cold and harshly irritated, but very calm and in charge. Mention the police. Wave the phone around and threaten to call them back right now. End it with: "Remember, any further contact of any kind means the police take over. This is completely unacceptable."
Most likely, you won't see anyone, but the manilla envelope will be gone (or have been opened) in the morning.
Follow up with the police if anything at all weird happens in the next 6 months. Document everything you see and do, right away.
So sue me, I'm paranoid. I frequin' hate creeps.
[Edit: was writing while you posted. Don't approach anyone if you don't want to, but do consider the manila envelope. Whatever you chose, you have my support, of course.]
[ January 12, 2005, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Glaphyra the Righteous ]
Posts: 93 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
She’s got a long, fenced, backyard. For the creep to take an envelope off her doorknob he’d have to take actions that could otherwise get him in trouble for trespassing, and she doesn’t want to do anything that could be construed as inviting him to take such actions, in case she has to report him for trespassing later. Especially she doesn’t want him to start thinking of things attached to her door as being addressed to him, or of her back porch as a letter-drop.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:If he doesn't get any attention, then he will keep pursuing (I suspect). This also makes it difficult to enforce anti-stalking measures, if he "doesn't know you didn't want the attention."
I would suspect that boredom will be far more effective than anything else to discourage him, especially with an anonymous stalker. Anti-stalking measures can't come into play until he's identified.
Edit: I forgot to mention, ignoring him will likely spur some additional attempts at contact. If one of these is in real-time (phone or face-to-face), then a firm, polite, absolute statement that no further contact is desired nor will it ever be desired is in order. If the only contact is letters, then no response is the way to go unless the letters start making alarm bells go off. Even if you can't point to anything that made the bells go off, take such an intuition seriously.
The key factor to keep in mind with a situation like this is that getting the behavior to stop is more important than justice.
We know this person does not interact with people in the normal fashion. We can make a very safe guess that he will react to anything ElJay (or an officer acting in ElJay's name) does in a fashion that is not "normal." The only thing that can make this fulfilling for him is a reaction. Deny him the reaction, and you deny him the payoff that makes this desirable behavior to him.
The most important factor here is that ElJay hasn't gotten any scary vibe from the letter.
I guess I'll use this thread to plug "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker one more time. It's a book I think everyone should read at least once.
posted
Unless it's someone I recognize and feel comfortable approaching, I am on the "no contact is best" side. I also except further overtures, which I will also ignore until they reach a further stage of creepy.
If I was going to leave a note I would do it at the alley itself, for the above stated reason of not wanting to encourage him to walk up to my back porch. But if I was going to confront someone, I would be much more likely to do it in person... with backup around, but not immediately visable. The calm, direct, and firm approach is definitely the way I would go if I felt the need. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
I can't make sense of this--unless "meant" is supposed to be "met". But I am not sure what the following statement meant either.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I believe she meant that anyone who has met ElJay would know that she gives off a vibe of someone who could cheerfully kick anyone’s tuckus that she choose to, and thus no one would suggest it to her unless they meant it.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ah. I was picturing your house as directly adjacent to the alley. In this case, I would certainly agree that it would be wise to avoid "enticing" him in any closer. For similar reasons, I wouldn't play along just to get him to identify himself, as I expect he would feel quite smugly righteous in his subsequent anger at being misled. That can be used as a "justification" for over-reaction to being rebuffed.
Unfortunately, my own stalkies never took avoidance as an answer, despite how dedicated and assiduous I was about applying it. Things always ended up escalating, without exception. I learned to go all Chill Beetch hard and fast, as soon as anything out of line occurred. Nip it in the bud and assert my own dominance from the get-go.
However, I'd be delighted to learn that things worked differently for someone else. It is certainly the preferable approach, IMO.
Keep us updated!
[ January 12, 2005, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Glaphyra the Righteous ]
Posts: 93 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hmmm, OK. I have kinda gotten the sense from her posts that she has a secure, strong personality, and is not afraid of necessary confrontation. But I have a hard time imagining her actually getting violent unless it was in necessary self-defense.
That was why I thought it was figurative. "Kicking butt" as in confronting the guy in a no-nonsense sort of way and thus discouraging further attempts at contact.
I guess that is why I have taken the side of confrontation more than ignoring, though I can see the merits of the second. You see, growing up, I got picked on *a lot*. My parents taught me that if I ignored them it would stop. But it didn't work. Sometimes a strong confrontation is required to stop a bully.
So many guys who seek to manipulate women seek out ones that they aren't intimidated by. ELJay seems like she is very capable of being intimidating by her presence alone.
But then, this guy could be really sick, and people who are really sick may not be phased by any sort of intimidation.
It depends on his motivations. Does he want attention of any kind, good or bad? Or does he want to be on a power kick? If it is the first, ignoring is best. If the second, strong, confident, confrontation is best, since the second is essentially a coward. It is difficult from the letter to tell which he is.
quote: GQ (this what my friends call me, ask around)
Weird, this seems that he doesn't mind you finding out who he is, and that maybe he even *wants* you to find out who he is, but he wants you to put some effort into it. Very much like the towel thingy. It sounds like he wants you to find him intriguing.
Edit: I am thinking that if he is the second of the two types, ignoring him in his own little twisted mind means that he is getting to you. That could be empowering to him, and encourage him further.
quote: I'm usually walking by around 5pm, if I work late it's around 10pm.
If he's not by at 5 PM, ElJay, don't give up hope!
I seriously cannot WAIT to hear tomorrow's report on what she found out! (or maybe I will have to log back on late tonight) I'm figuring either teenage kid; or 50-ish man that is creepy.
posted
(I promise to let it go after this, I really do.)
Just in clarification, I am the soul of politeness and goodwill when asked out in a straightforward way that is respectful of my dignity and control over my own life. I don't (or rather, didn't ) breathe fire down the necks of all potential suitors. I'm nice, honestly. Meek, even.
Just, man, don't try to %$#@ with my head. That really, really pisses me off, and it pisses me off on the behalf of other people to whom it is done, too.
But I'm pro-ElJay all the way. I am certain that she will make the best choice for her situation, as she is a woman well in charge of her own life.
[ January 12, 2005, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Glaphyra the Righteous ]
Posts: 93 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: Ever since I laid eyes on you I knew I wanted you
You know - the more you read that, the creepier it sounds.
LJ -- do you know if your county offers an online sex offenders database? I know our county does. You go to the county's web site and their registered sex offender offering, and type in your address and it lets you know any one in your neighborhood that is a convicted, registered sexual predator. Since he said he was "new around here" that was kind of a red flag. I'm wondering..
FG (Here is an example of Kansas' sex offender database online. Surely your state has something like this)
posted
I also wonder if there is anyone in the local law enforcement crowd with a particular interest in victim's rights as re: stalking. Sometimes there is a contact person or someone in the DAs office has a special interest, and that can be useful to know.
Wonder how Raia is doing with her similar situation.
Posts: 93 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just read over it again, and he says "But I a" twice when he should have said "But I am". I am thinking this is more than just a typo, and English really is his second language. Just a thought.
Anyone have any clue on what language might lead someone to make this mistake? I am thinking Asian languages more than Romantic, but I don't know.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:I guess that is why I have taken the side of confrontation more than ignoring, though I can see the merits of the second. You see, growing up, I got picked on *a lot*. My parents taught me that if I ignored them it would stop. But it didn't work. Sometimes a strong confrontation is required to stop a bully.
I was told that too, and it never worked. But in that case, you are there in person with the bully, so I think the dynamics are a little different.
posted
It is true that there are different dynamics in person. They can watch your "ignoring" for subtle signs of reaction.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
And they can get their payback from the laughter of their friends who are there also - the victim's specific identity may be only incidental.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
not to be flippant, but i have been enjoying the suspense of this thread. maybe someone should turn this into a short story when all the pieces have come together...
Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wish it had worked that way with my stalkers. In my case, though, it was a matter of them feeling like they owned me, like I belonged to them, by virtue of the depth of their interest. Still a power play, but more one where they didn't get off on others knowing they were in control, so long as I knew it. And the person doing it.
But it may just be that I had a string of bad luck. Posts: 93 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I should show you a letter from my first stalker sometime, Sara. I kept it in case legal action became necessary. It was after the situation was dealt with and he moved out of state. He accused me of cruelty in not realizing the depth of his affections (and prayed that God would forgive my stone-cold heart.) He was indignant that I didn’t realize how deeply he loved me – why, he’d planned on divorcing his wife to marry me! (Note that I had never dated this guy, nor given him any indication that I was interested in him in any way.)
So yeah, I identify with the situation where the guy thinks his feelings create reality.
posted
Sara, I definitely think a small but significant percentage of such cases can escalate with no further prompting. No doubt about it.
The thinking on no contact as a first step is twofold: 1) it works a lot of the time, and 2) when it doesn't work, it isn't likely to make things worse than they would have been otherwise. It's viewed as a no-cost (except for having to tolerate the letters for a couple more weeks) step.
Ignoring in person is not the same as no contact, however. That is likely to cause a problem if not done correctly.
However, it's possible ignoring won't work. And it's likely that a particular person will attract stalkers of a similar ilk, so that the repeated stalkers you had to deal with responded better to your firm dismissal. I would never second guess someone who wanted to handle a particular situation differently, although I might provide additional information if I thought it was useful and the person is willing to hear it.
posted
I think if it were *me* the ignoring would be best because I am not good with confrontation. I wouldn't trust myself to do a good job of it. It's just fun to wonder how I might handle things if I *were* secure in my ability to confront such situations.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: I believe she meant that anyone who has met ElJay would know that she gives off a vibe of someone who could cheerfully kick anyone’s tuckus that she choose to, and thus no one would suggest it to her unless they meant it.
Thank you, dkw for translating correctly. I've got to figure out what I actually said now...
posted
Not to be funny, but I wondered why I haven't ever been stalked, and I realize it's because I'm more the stalker type. I seriously stalked 3 guys, one of whom I was able to marry. 4 if you count my AP history teacher.
bev- no clue on the language thing. The punctuation jumble- is that verbatim or did you change it? Is it really typewriter or computer printed? Not that I have theories about any of these things. It' just kind of rare for someone to really use a typewriter these days.
Posts: 666 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Clueless the police may be, but ElJay is not. She’s not going to look for an opportunity to go butt-kicking. As our long ago karate instructor told us – you don’t use violence unless you’re willing to kill the other person. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
) breathe fire down the necks of all potential suitors. I'm nice, honestly. Meek, even.![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
