quote:He explained that he doesn't even use the "n-word" jokingly, because it's so racist. I was impressed. Then he clarified that "the lazy, no-good blacks are a different story. Those're niggers. You know the kind I'm talking about."
I tried to explain to him that that was a pretty offensive and racist thing to say, and he was appalled that I thought so. He sincerely believed that he was not at all being racist.
Do you think he was being a racist? Or just insensitive?
Because honestly, if you really believe there's a distinction there, you're operating in a totally different universe than I am.
I don't think there's any wiggle room on whether or not the word 'nigger' is a racist term.
I don't think the same can necessarily be said for what Rosie O'Donnell said. I wouldn't say it, just to be safe, especially now that I've heard some in the target group say that they consider it racist. But I can also understand someone else not agreeing that it *is* racist.*
As I said before, though, the very act of disagreeing with someone over what *they* find offensive is insensitive and inconsiderate. And that I what I personally think happened here. YMMV.
*For example, I know several people who think the words 'honky', 'cracker', and/or 'redneck' are racist. I personally could care less; none of those are the least bit offensive to me.
Much more offensive to me is the idea that any word anyone says offends them becomes off limits for all time. That's the kind of oversensitive PC b.s. that drives me insane.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote: It's no different than "Why do Jews have big noses? Because air is free."
How about,'He's got more chins than a Chinese telephone book"?
Not exactly the same. The humor is directed at the obesity, not the fact that telephone books in China are really thick because of their high population levels. If the joke was,
"That telephone book has as many chins as a fat man." It wouldn't be funny, but it would be kinda rude to Chinese people."
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posted
I think we need to make a stronger distinction between real racism and simple annoyance or distaste. To me, it seems like lots of Americans are hypersensitive, trying to find offense in everything. The politically correct movement wants to constantly redefine what is and is not ok to say, to the point that it's impossible to know from one day to the next what people will find offensive.
I think we need to look at the motive and intention of a person. If they're trying to hurt or belittle then it's probably racist. If they're trying to be funny and friendly, even if some people find it in poor taste, maybe it's not racism, it's just a dumb joke or an innocent mistake.
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posted
If Ching ching is as bad as the "n" word, then why is it that people don't write nigger while they will write the other? (And I think that's the first that I, myself, have ever written the "n" word.)
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
The first time I looked at this thread title I swear it said Rosie O'Donnell's racist giraffe. And then I was confused so I looked in. And yea there are no giraffes here.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Japanese sounds rather cool to me. So does Mandarin, it's kind of musical, I like the way it sounds better than Cantonese, but Cantonese has this sort of inflection that is cool.
That ching ching stuff is just more obnoxious that blatantly racist like the n word.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Okay, I'm going to try one more post and then I'm leaving this thread.
erosomniac: So the comments were racest...so what? What harm did it cause? BlueWizard has pointed out that making fun of other languages is a common humor tactic. Many comics make fun of culteral differences.
So, an actress made a racest joke on tv. So what?
See my first post: I don't care. Rosie O'Donnell being a racist, publicly or privately, affects me or asian americans generally zero. This is why my first post said, specifically, that we can consider this an open'n'shut. I'll quote it again here:
quote:So basically, she made a racist comment, and is admitting she's a racist and will continue being a racist.
So...let's write her off as a racist. Case closed.
My problem is with people denying that her comment is a racist one.
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang : I don't think there's any wiggle room on whether or not the word 'nigger' is a racist term.
There's the same amount of wiggle room on whether using "ching chang chong" as an approximation for Chinese or any asian conversational dialect is racist.
quote:I don't think the same can necessarily be said for what Rosie O'Donnell said. I wouldn't say it, just to be safe, especially now that I've heard some in the target group say that they consider it racist. But I can also understand someone else not agreeing that it *is* racist.*
Again, here's the distinction: if Rosie had heard the reaction and said "I didn't know that was racist of me; I'm sorry, I'll do my best to avoid it in the future" or something similar, the problem would be over. I imagine most people in the offended demographic would be more willing to write it off as an accident.
Instead, she dismissed it as playground antics, and said, bluntly, 'I'll probably do it again.'
quote:Much more offensive to me is the idea that any word anyone says offends them becomes off limits for all time. That's the kind of oversensitive PC b.s. that drives me insane.
Explain to me, then, your reluctance to type, in a completely value-neutral scenario, the word "nigger."
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by blacwolve: I think it's hard for people to see it as racist because people generally don't see Chinese people as a minority. Not in the way we see African Americans or Latinos. So to everyone who isn't Asian, they see it as though Rosie were making fun of the French language, or a British accent, or something. Whereas to the people who are Asian, they are aware they're in the minority, so they see it as racist.
Why is okay to make fun of French or British accents and language, but not Chinese? I don't get the distinction.
I usually laugh when cartoons mock the French language.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Because people won't be seriously offended if I make a joke about French courage or British gaiety. If a class is well-off enough in public perception, no one cares about insulting them.
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quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: I think the whole culture of "getting offended" is overblown. When people say/do offensive things, it's your choice how you react to it. You can choose to demand an apology, or take the higher ground and blow it off.
That's my opeenion.
I share your opinion. I'm all for trying as hard as you can NOT to offend people, but it feels like people are trying hard to be offended. I think that what Rosie said was not necessarily racist, but I suppose I can see how some people would be bothered by it. To me racism entails saying things that degrade or demoralize, or perpetuate stereotypes that are not truthful. Would Rosie hang out with/respect an Asian person? I have no reason to think she wouldn't. Chinese sounds different than English. Rosie doesn't speak Chinese (I presume). Whatever. I just can't figure out what the big deal is. If she had said something like "those stupid (fill in the blank) referring to Asians, that I would be upset about.
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posted
I think a big part of the problem with this thread is that people seem to think that "offensive" is a necessary component of "racist" (adj).
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posted
Maybe it would help if you defined racism for us eros, so we understand where you are coming from.
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posted
Indeed. "Racism" does not really mean "having nothing to do with race." But, by all means, anyone who wants to insist that it does, keep insisting.
Main Entry: rac·ism Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi- Function: noun 1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination (m-w.com)
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
As a Chinese-American, I'm pretty much with eros: Rosie's joke was insensitive at best, and her non-apology after the fact makes her come off as a grade-A asshole. But since I wouldn't be caught dead watching "The View" anyway, it doesn't really bother me beyond the instinctive wince that accompanies this sort of cultural stereotyping.
More importantly: Carlos Mencia is the antithesis of funny. The guy is a loud, obnoxious idiot with the wit of a boiled prawn and an ego so inflated that it's a miracle he didn't beat SpaceShipOne to the X-prize.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Overtly sensitive. Not me, but most people. It's the new America. I have only one word that I am sensitive to, and even that depends on the context used. I have already explained the word, and will not repeat it here. Other than a couple things, we have almost no sensitivity at where I work. There is only one line that is not to be crossed. You can joke the other guy or girl (and most girls in the navy can be more obscene than the guys), but it is considered very ill taste to bring the others family members into it. Unless that person brings them into it themselves. Then it is only fair game for that time being.
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Racism 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. 2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
By my interpretation of these definitions what Rosie said was not racist. Bad taste, maybe. *shrug* I'm not offended.
Posts: 293 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Three or four years ago in this forum I made what I thought was a humorously original use of the term "aboriginal," and got so jumped upon for it that I was forced to yield and apologize and vow never to use the term like that again.
Lisa, looks like you are right about "nekulturny." I had checked my earlier spelling by entering "nyet culturnya" in my web search engine, and came up with a couple of hits, so I thought that must be right. But now, on checking again, I see the hits came from a post I sent to the Analog discussion board asking if that was the right term. I guess it's not good form to quote myself. I did think that was the way Robert Heinlein spelled it.
For what it's worth, I just got 972 hits on Yahoo for "Ne kulturni."
Somehow I doubt that Russians would be offended, since I can't even get the proper form of the insult. How do you say in Russian, "Wadyoumean WE are uncultured?"
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:I think a big part of the problem with this thread is that people seem to think that "offensive" is a necessary component of "racist" (adj).
From disctionary.com:
quote: rac·ism (rā'sĭz'əm) pronunciation n. 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. 2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
The Mirriam-Webster definition is almost exactly the same, so I won't bother to quote it.
Does she demonstrate 1) by her actions? I think we can all agree that she did not.
She clearly did not discriminate against any race with her comments. I can go get the definition of that word if there is any confusion. Did her actions show prejudice? Nope.
The only way you could claim she was being racist was if you think she knew that the phrase was one which Asians did not like, and was using it for this purpose.
Her apology might not have been ideal, but I think you guys aren't interpretting it how she meant it.
The "I will probably do the same next week" was (IMO) not referring to using "ching chong", it was referring to mistakenly offending a group of people because she was unaware of that the specific thing she was saying would be offensive.
I myself didn't know it was offensive, and in the extraordinarily unlikely event that I was to try and imitate people speaking Mandarin for the sake of comedy, I may have made the same mistake she did. (And I have no ill feelings toward Asians in general, any subgroup of Asians, or any specific Asian individuals )
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Will B: Indeed. "Racism" does not really mean "having nothing to do with race." But, by all means, anyone who wants to insist that it does, keep insisting.
And from Wikipedia,
quote: The term racism is sometimes used to refer to preference for one's own ethnic group (ethnocentrism),[2] fear of foreigners (xenophobia), views or preferences against interbreeding of the races (miscegenation),[3], and/or a generalization of a specific group of people (stereotype); regardless of any explicit belief in superiority or inferiority embedded within such views or preferences. Racism has been used in attempts to justify social discrimination, racial segregation and violence, including genocide. Politicians are known to practice race-baiting in an effort to win constituents.
The fact is that most people, consider races interchangeable with ethnic groups, possibly because there is no real scientific distinction between the two. Ethnocentrism is what Eros is primarily referring to, and what many people use as a key part of racism.
This is why you can't just walk down the street, go up to some Hispanics, say "Hey you stupid spiks", and then say you aren't a racist simply because Hispanics aren't a "real" race.
Addition: I might also note from Webster:
quote: Main Entry: 3race Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza 1 : a breeding stock of animals 2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics <the English race> 3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b : BREED c : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits 4 obsolete : inherited temperament or disposition 5 : distinctive flavor, taste, or strength
Chinese people would clearly fit under 2 (as the Chinese race, a kind of people unified by their shared characteristics, including Chinese as a language), so if you're still fighting over semantics, then there you go.
quote:Does she demonstrate 1) by her actions? I think we can all agree that she did not.
She clearly did not discriminate against any race with her comments. I can go get the definition of that word if there is any confusion. Did her actions show prejudice? Nope.
The only way you could claim she was being racist was if you think she knew that the phrase was one which Asians did not like, and was using it for this purpose.
Wrong.
Xavier, we've established that her comment alone is not the problem: the problem is that she is unapologetic, even once it was pointed out to her that--regardless of what the dictionary says about racism--a large number of people were offended by her comment and considered it racist, and once it was pointed out to her, her response was to dismiss it as "playground" antics, and to assert she would likely continue behaving the same way.
The fact that she makes the comment, sees that it's being interpretted as racist, and essentially says "okay, but you offended asians are just being silly, I'm going to continue being a racist" is what makes her a racist.
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posted
eros: Your definition is not what most people (or the dictinary) feel racist means.
Insensitivity isn't part of it, for me and for a lot of people here.
If you soften the definition of racist it will do more harm than good.
If what she said personally offended you, that's fine, but to say that it offended an entire race because it was insensitive crosses the line into P.C. B.S. in my opinion.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:This is why you can't just walk down the street, go up to some Hispanics, say "Hey you stupid spiks", and then say you aren't a racist simply because Hispanics aren't a "real" race.
And, of course, "Hispanic" means "A spanish speaking person", and is offensive to a lot of americans of Latin American ethnic origin, who generally prefer the term "Latino".
We had a thread on hatrack about the Oscars where someone referred to the presentation of the award by Selma Hayek and Penelope Cruz as a nice moment for Hispanics, which Chris Rock ruined with his jokes. Someone here threw a fit, claiming that the correct term was "Latino". Of course since Cruz is from Spain, this is completely wrong.
Even though the term "Hispanic" was the only word that fit both Cruz and Hayek, it was pretty much determined to have been a faux pas. There is no label for Spanish people and Latin Americans together which would not have offended at least someone.
So in order to be 100% PC, you really can't group those two peoples together in any way.
Another example would be my post above referring to "Asians" as an ethnic classification. I was uncomfortable using it, since Indians, Russians, and people of Middle Eastern origin (among others) have the same right to the term as the Chinese, Japanese, etc. Perhaps more so than the Japanese and Filipinos, considering they aren't on the continent.
But you can't call them "Orientals", because that has long ago been considered an offensive term only applicable to objects.
So there really isn't any PC term for that group of people, and so you can't really talk about that group with a label either. Since I'm sure some Chinese people's get offended when you group them with Japanese under any label, and vice versa, perhaps this is the point.
For another example, see the past conversations on what to call "Native Americans/American Indians".
Add it all together, in order to be completely PC, you can't really talk about ethnicity at all. Perhaps that's the point?
Like in Seinfeld, you need to say "I don't think we should be talking about this" and move on.
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: eros: Your definition is not what most people (or the dictinary) feel racist means.
Insensitivity isn't part of it, for me and for a lot of people here.
If you soften the definition of racist it will do more harm than good.
If what she said personally offended you, that's fine, but to say that it offended an entire race because it was insensitive crosses the line into P.C. B.S. in my opinion.
I had a really nice, livid response ready for this, but I'll summarize simply with: screw you, bud.
I'm leaving. This thread is making me angry enough to hurt someone, and I just got a call from our second largest distributor saying that half our products, which we've already taken hundreds (if not thousands) of orders for will not arrive tomorrow as planned, and will therefore not be able to ship in time for Christmas, so I'm not going to be able to continue this even as halfway-rationally. Sorry, folks.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote: But you can't call them "Orientals", because that has long ago been considered an offensive term only applicable to objects.
More specifically it is a term that should only be applied to bland tasting ramen that only differs in taste from other bland tasting ramen in that "oriental ramen" has extra salt.
posted
Given the dichotomy of who it is, and isn't okay to make fun of in this country, I have a hard time working up any anger over this.
Making fun of southerners? Alright. Make fun of Christians? Sure. Make fun of Jews? CERTAINLY NOT! Make fun of Men? Alright. Make fun of Women? MYSOGYNIST!!
So I don't really care. Ching chang ching chong? Whatever. Rosie doesn't hate Asians, is that seriously in question?
Further, I also have a hard time getting up in arms when people make fun of themselves and then turn around and chastise others for doing the same thing. How do you expect anyone to learn what is, and isn't okay when you aren't presenting them with a good personal example? Something either IS offensive, or it ISN'T, it shouldn't matter who is saying it.
So here's my new rule: If you can say it about yourself, I can say it about you.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Lyr: cool! so if I've ever once heard a black person make a racist joke toward blacks, I can go to town on all of them?
hmm... maybe not. Sounds like an excuse for racism to me.
Depends, does the person telling the jokes hate black people? Do black people who tell black jokes hate black people? Is Lisa anti-Semitic?
Those aren't non sequitors, they're important questions. And sorry Lisa for singling you out, I have no idea who on this board is what race other than eros.
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posted
I think that's generally a good rule, Lyrhawn, except that it is nearly impossible know what a person says about himself, unless you already know him particularly well.
[edit] And, darn, you posted before I refreshed the page.
posted
I think the logic that people within a 'race' or culture can make certain jokes edit: about themselves, but other people can't, is ridiculous. Either the joke is offensive or not. Saying that the 'race' or culture of the person telling the joke matters is...racist. It is defining the person not for who they are as an individual but what they represent as a 'race'.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I completely agree with what erosomniac has said in this thread.
I first heard the "Chinese people choose their kids' names by throwing pots and pans" joke on the way back from a scholar's bowl competition. The guys on the team were using it to make fun of an Asian guy from the other team. That was an extremely uncomfortable ride back to school.
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quote: I think the logic that people within a 'race' or culture can make certain jokes but other people can't is ridiculous. Either the joke is offensive or not. Saying that the 'race' or culture of the person telling the joke matters is...racist. It is defining the person not for who they are as an individual but what they represent as a 'race'.
I think the tone of a joke is important, though, especially if the joke is told about a minority by a person who belongs to the majority. Jokes, for example can either laugh at the stereotype or the person behind the stereotype, if that makes sense. I think that the same joke can be told in ways that are hurtful and ways that are not.
When I was studying stand up comedy one of the basic rules we were thought was that you should always find the ways of making yourself ridiculous instead of making others ridiculous simply because people like much more laughing at you than they like laughing at themselves. In a way it's also basic courtesy: at the dinner table it makes for much better atmosphere if I tell the funny story of how I embarrassed myself or even how my sister embarrassed herself (because I know her and I know she can take it) than if I tell the funny story of how the guy sitting next to me whom I barely know made a complete ass of himself.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: I think the logic that people within a 'race' or culture can make certain jokes edit: about themselves, but other people can't, is ridiculous. Either the joke is offensive or not. Saying that the 'race' or culture of the person telling the joke matters is...racist. It is defining the person not for who they are as an individual but what they represent as a 'race'.
I could see it in the light of...if you make fun of X characteristic about yourself, you're using self-depricating humor. Like, I don't know, if a skinny person jokes about having no rear end. But if someone else (and by this, I mean a stranger) were to say it, chances are the person would be offended and think that they were being made fun of in a malicious way.
posted
Clarification: I didn't say that the Chinese people aren't a race (they aren't, but close enough). I said that the Chinese language isn't a race.
Anyway, the definition of "racism" clears it up. Her remarks weren't racist. They were rude.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I think her comment was ridiculous, but before it even hit the Breakfast at Tiffany's level of world awareness. Really? Everyone over in China is talking about Danny DeVito's appearance on a daytime talk show? I know she was exaggerating, but considering her previous behavior and comments and general state of self-righteous cluelessness, the hubris inherent in the comment means it can be dismissed completely.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:I think the logic that people within a 'race' or culture can make certain jokes edit: about themselves, but other people can't, is ridiculous. Either the joke is offensive or not.
posted
I think it's the way I can complain about my family, or a friend. But if someone outside my family, or who isn't also friends with them, says the same thing, I'll jump down their throats for it.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by blacwolve: I think it's the way I can complain about my family, or a friend. But if someone outside my family, or who isn't also friends with them, says the same thing, I'll jump down their throats for it.
But that only works because you have an established relationship of kindship or at least friendship.
A black making fun of black people is given more leeway then a white person as he/she has grown up in the culture and certainly understands it. We assume people love their own culture as most people do. If we have a family member who we know has no love for his/her own family and frequently makes disparaging remarks about it, we are just as likely to tell them to shut up.
A stranger of another race has given nobody any reason to suspect that beyond the rude CHING CHING CHONG comment that she knows anything at all about the culture. Are we wrong to think its likely that she thinks less of the culture then she ought to?
Usually the reaction to a negative response is to say, "Hey man its cool, I've got Chinese friends." For some even that is not enough. Rosie didn't even give us that, she simply said in essence, "Well I didn't know that but I'm not changing, its who I am."
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
The difference being, if Margaret Cho had ripped on white people, there would have been zero outcry.
Anyone remember the dodgeball episode of South Park? It used Asian stereotypes and then proceded to make fun of white people. Asian stereoypes? Cringeworthy. White stereotypes? Don't even bat an eyelash.
posted
Okay, first off: why is anyone surprised that Rosie would finally say something arrogant, ignorant, and completely stupid?
She's done it before, but has always had the self-righteousness of 'standing behind a cause' to protect herself with. So the mask as come off, so what?
secondly, 'do blacks hate other blacks?' yes, in fact they do. In the south, that is. As long as the hated one is 'blacker' than the one doing the hating. (I've seen this)
Isn't that funny? In a sad, ironic sort of way?
Posts: 3 | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by jester987: secondly, 'do blacks hate other blacks?' yes, in fact they do. In the south, that is. As long as the hated one is 'blacker' than the one doing the hating. (I've seen this)
posted
I point out again that this is a non-story. It has virtually no substance, and shouldn't even be discussed. You are welcome to discuss it, and in general, it may bring up some worthwhile knowledge regarding racism, but in this specific case, in my opinion, it is just hot air chasing hot air.
First to Rosie's appology, I think it was very much like when people were offended by the way Rosanne Barr sang the national anthem at a baseball game. Her response was, you hired Rosanne Barr, you can't complain when that is what you got.
Rosie was essentially saying that she is a loud obnoxious opinionated broad and you shouldn't complain when that is exactly what you get.
The next point, last night on 'Late Night with Conan O'Brien', Conan spoke briefly in mock!Italian, so I guess he is a racist too. Presumably the Mafia will be paying him a late night visit.
If you can't condemn all similar behavior then you have a hard case to make calling this one Rosie incident 'racist'. I hardly think the world will be up in arms because Conan was insensitive to Italians. Equally, I see no reason to be up in arms over an insignificant aspect of Rosie's statements especially when that outrage simply confirms the very point Rosie was making in the first place.
Final point, I will continue to see this as a complete non-story until some group that truly and fairly represents the Chinese minority comes forward and expresses their offense. Then if someone truly representing the Chinese people expresses offense, I think Rosie will offer a genuine apology.
And for the record, I don't see a multi-ethnic group of attention-seeking controversy-stirring story-fabricating journalist as the true representatives of the Chinese people.
Of course, once again, that's just one man's opinion.
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