I have to agree mostly with your take. Though I find Jacen's thought processes and how he decides to murder chillingly cold. In the last book (Tempest), his decision to murder his parents based on incomplete information was disturbing, to say the least. Man, just writing that makes you see how far he has gone.
Regarding his sociopathy, I agree that is not necessarily the best term. He does view them as human. It's just that their deaths are necessary. When he killed his Jedi friend at the end of Betrayel, it was because a vision showed him that if she didn't die, he would have to kill Luke, perhaps an understandable, if inexcusable, reason. But his murders and actions have been increasingly cold. Yes, he feels it, and he does sacrifice everyone else's (and even his own) good opinion of himself. It is this single facet, the fact that he thinks he doesn't want to do this that makes this so very interesting. He thinks he is not seduced, even as his actions are the very actions of a person seduced to the dark side.
I think he views himself as in control of the force. When I used the term 'master of the dark side' that's what I was referring to. He believes himself above the usual corruption associated with the dark side. And that, too, is interesting. Can someone use the dark side and do the things he does, and not become/be evil?
But you're right about other rulers and are they really any different. There's always collateral damage in military actions. I suppose the difference is that Jacen never appears to go out of his way to avoid the damage. And is even willing to kill innocents (like his Jedi friend- can't remember her name) on purpose. True, either way, dead is dead. But he is willing to kill, in cold calculated blood, someone simply in the name of some future vision. In this, he is just like Anakin.
And yet there is enough gray area in a lot of what he does that...well, it's interesting. I would definitely like to see Jacen die a Sith, but with some pathos, some redeemable quality, so that there is more emotional punch.
I just like where this is going.
(PS, and I loved the Boba Fett and later Taun We sections of bloodlines. Want to learn more about him.)
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So I finished "Unseen Queen" on Saturday, and I'm 2/3rds of the way into "Betrayal" at the moment, and I have some comments.
1. They changed Lysa Dunter's name to Lysa Dunton about halfway through the book for no apparent reason. Fairly sill oversight on the part of the editor AND the author.
2. The part where Leia says "Han shot first," that HAS to be a playful joking reference to Mos Eisley Cantina and Greedo. Just thought that was amusing at it caught my eye.
3. And this has nothing to do with the current stuff, just to do with Mike Stackpole which we were talking about before. I mentioned before that Corran Horn and Wolfgang Kies (of Shadowrun) share a lot of similiar character traits. One thing I just picked up on when rereading "Wolf and Raven" is that Wolf's favorite drink is Henry Weinhard's Private Reserve, whereas Corran's is Correllian Brandy: Whyren's Reserve. That has to be an homage, or at least a reference, but it's WAY to similiar to just be a coincidence. Just something I'd never picked up on in the dozens of times I've read all these books.
I'm sure I'll post more when I finish the last 80 pages, but my general feeling on the way things are going so far is: unbelievable. And not in the good was, as in, I don't for a moment believe that all these characters would behave the way they are behaving. NJO stretched the credibility of the SW Universe. LOTF is snapping it in two and tying it into a knot, but we'll see where it goes from here...
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So I finished the book then reread the thread. I'm still what, two books behind being totally up to date?
I don't buy Jacen's descent, not yet anyway. If there's more information I get in the next couple books to make it more believable, then so be it, but at the moment, it doesn't strike me as plausible. Any chance at believing it fell away when he killed Nelani. And I see nothing that leads me to believe it's anywhere near logical for him to put THAT much faith in his crazy future visions, enough to KILL Nelani? Too extreme.
And I also find it hard to believe he's buy what Lumiya was selling about Vergere. Her words about Vergere don't reconcile with the many speeches we've heard Vergere give, especially during her time on Mon Calamari.
I'm just not buying it, and not just because I don't at all like it. There's already enough conflict going on in the Solo/Skywalker family, and a cool hand being extended to the Antilles family as well (I still want more than the morsel of Corran Horn they tossed out, but meh, whaddaya gonna do?). I'll continue to read the books, so long as my brother keeps buying them, but I think it's going off the deep end.
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I'm actually enjoying LotF quite a bit. I thought that "Betrayal" was an exciting read and an overall good start. Book 2, "Bloodlines" was the first time I actually gave a damn about Boba Fett. "Tempest" wasn't bad either. Book 4, "Exile" just came out. Unfortunately I'm much too busy at the moment to read it.
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Here's the thing about his "crazy future visions", though: they've all come true. And he has actually been able to literally change the future specifically. I can easily imagine myself believing in the accuracy of such visions, if I had them repeatedly and they kept coming true.
I think that what's missing is the "why". We are told, at infrequent intervals, that he is doing this because he is totally convinced that this is the way to ensure a safer, more secure and peaceful galaxy for everyone, most notably his lover and daughter. So often, though, that goes unstated or unmentioned.
As for Vergere, though, her speeches were totally utilitarian. What Lumiya is saying about her, while we cannot know if Vergere would have actually said them, I have no trouble imagining her say them.
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How many of these visions has he had? Other than the one that made him kill Nelani, and the one that caused him to launch the attack on the Chiss base, I don't recall any others.
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There was that one that bothered him through most of the NJO. Something about standing on a balance point and failing to grasp a lightsaber.
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Well now, the sacrifice was not what I was expecting. At least, not tangibly speaking anyway. As for the actual person or persons involved in the sacrifice, that was a surprise.
I have to admit I'm still interested in the story. I also enjoy the inclusion of Mandalorians. I don't know why that is, exactly-I didn't give a fig for them (as far as fictional cultural societies go, of course ) until I think it was when I played KoTOR, and KoTOR II. They were pretty groovy there.
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I've read everything except the last hardcover that just came out, and I'm liking it a lot more than I did before.
Jacen's a total nutjob now, but I like the development that Ben Skywalker is getting. And I like what is going on with Jaina, though it's weird that it almost seems like she likes Zekk now. I still want to see her end up with Jag.
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That's the one I just read, Lyrhawn, it's called 'Sacrifice' by Karen Traviss, the author of the second book in Legacy. She's the author I prefer out of the ones that we've seen for this series, so far.
I'm afraid you'll get next to no new stuff involving any of the solos except for Jacen in this book. However, there is quite a lot with Ben, Lumiya, Mara and Luke (Mara more than Luke, actually), and the Fetts.
It's not a spoiler to say (at least, it's been mentioned in the previous books) that 'Sacrifice' is a major turning point, at least as big as when Jacen Solo murdered his prisoner in interrogation. Quite a lot bigger than that, really. He chooses his own Sith name, for one thing.
Major (as in, SW universe altering) turning points for Jacen, Ben, Mara, Luke, Boba Fett, and Lumiya.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I also enjoy the inclusion of Mandalorians. I don't know why that is, exactly-I didn't give a fig for them (as far as fictional cultural societies go, of course ) until I think it was when I played KoTOR, and KoTOR II. They were pretty groovy there.
You see, that's one of the things that I didn't like about "Sacrifice". I don't know why Traviss has such a major Mando fetish that causes her to cram them into stories where they are not needed. "Bloodlines" was the first time that I really got to know Fett beyond his limited role in the films, and that was all well and good. I actually liked it. But I didn't need for such a large portion of "Sacrifice" to be about Fett and his boys. Those chapters were dull and seemed to be only loosely tied to the main plot. The other two authors in the series don't seem to have any interest in the Mandos, which makes the overall flow of the series feel less consistent when every third book Traviss insists on cramming them in.
Still, the parts of "Sacrifice" that were good (which is a fair amount of the book) are very good, but as far as turning points in a series go, I didn't feel that it lived up to standard set by "Star by Star" in the NJO. The major events are indeed major, but the rest felt like filler.
quote: And I like what is going on with Jaina, though it's weird that it almost seems like she likes Zekk now. I still want to see her end up with Jag.
Incidentally, the only thing that interests me less than the Mandalorians is Jaina Solo's love life, so at least Traviss did well by not dwelling on that.
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Heh, far from dwelling on it, she criticized it! And rightly so. I've never really been very enamored of Jaina.
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I'll probably get to it either when/if my brother buys it, or when it comes out on paperback.
I'm mixed so far on the Fett/Mando stuff. I feel like they are trying to cram a wholly separate series into these books, which can be annoying, as the plots don't really seem to mix at all except in rare points like the dead prisoner. Frankly I think it would be better served as a separate series. The part of me that wants to like it is the part that has always liked Boba Fett. But when I want to skip to the end of the Mando stuff to get to the REAL story, I think that says something about my interest level.
I'm interested to see what happens with Ben, and to a lesser extent with Luke and Mara. I can't imagine what Earth shattering revelations could come from the two of them, unless one or both of them turns his/her back on the Jedi and decides to hunt down Jacen. That'd be interesting.
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quote:I can't imagine what Earth shattering revelations could come from the two of them, unless one or both of them turns his/her back on the Jedi and decides to hunt down Jacen.
*giggles behind his hand*
Ditto on both the love life and the Mandalorian stuff (as in, I find them both uninteresting). And Jacen's complete fall to evil in this one actually struck me as semi-comprehensible, given how rapidly they've had him descending so far. His recognition that Tenel Ka will almost certainly stop loving him once she figures things out -- but his determination to carry through with it anyway -- rings very true to me, for some reason, based on how self-centered they've been writing him so far.
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Yeah, I am a bit tired of the Mandos culture, especially given that Alston or Denning don't bring them up at all. Now, it's true, each author has their pets, Allston: the Antilles clan, Denning: the Squibs. But a third of their books are not about them. If the Mandos are going to take on Galactic importance, the next book better show it. (Though I will say, I did like Fett in Bloodlines, and his thoughts on Jango. It was fresh, perhaps, and something quite interesting and preserved continuity.)
SPOILERS:
SPOILERS:
SPOILERS: SERIOUSLY YOU DONT WANNA READ THIS
SPOILERS: you asked for it.
I was shocked at the sacrifice, and yet shocked at how non-calculating it was. I wanted to see an actual sacrificial attitude on Jacen's part, not a killing in self-defense. Mara is, with the possible exception of Thrawn, the single greatest EU character ever (aside from her stupidity in defending Jacen to Luke a couple books before). More than, their appearance and character in Heir to the Empire, has, IMO, a lot to do with the Star Wars rennaisance that began in 1991. So her death was profound. It was the end of an era, almost, but not quite the level of the death of an actual OT series main character (and I'm sorry, but I never really cared all that much about Chewbacca, so his death in Vector Prime didn't do ANYTHING for me.)
Now, more than ever, I hate Jacen. His sneaking up on Ben and promising to find out who did this...Evil. No redemption for him. He is calculated every step of the way. Evil, not emotionally driven.
I am really liking the Legacy of the Force series. Can't wait for the next.
Just read it this weekend. Seriously amazing stuff. On a par with Rinzler's new release "The Making of Star Wars." Lucas basically went from making a loosly serialized modern version of Flash Gordon, without any conscious mythic underpinnings (or at least not to the extent touted today), to a fully epic grand modern tragedy. This book shows the evolution of the story and the seems and stiches and changes along the way, using numerous interviews and old drafts and notes, going all the way back to 1973. Really archival stuff, on a par with the Lipincott interviews. He is able to show, among other things, that Vader was never originally intended to be Luke's father (which many believe, but I think this fully proves using old notes and drafts and statements.) Who 'the other' was (not Leia), what happened to the sequel trilogy, and so on. By deconstructing the Saga, he also shows a number of the motivations for WHY he did things the way he did in the Prequels, how they all grew out of those fateful months of March-April, in 1978, when he made Vader into Lukes father and gave birth to the prequels. Along the way, though, I found myself truly appreciating Lucas in a new way, seeing the humanized, flawed man, the man who, in the end, like Anakin, sacrificed his marriage and wife for a dream that he hoped would set them free, but lost it instead. It was quite moving.
posted
Jacen always seemed self-centered. Even his pacifism and arguments with Anakin, before and during the beginning of the Vong war always struck me as self-centered and self-righteous. I have seen nothing to changed that since then.
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quote:Originally posted by IanO: Jacen always seemed self-centered. Even his pacifism and arguments with Anakin, before and during the beginning of the Vong war always struck me as self-centered and self-righteous. I have seen nothing to changed that since then.
I agree. That's always been Jacen's problem. He's always believed that no one can understand the Force and the Universe like him, and that therefore gives him the right to do anything for his version of "the greater good". And somehow, after about 15 years of thinking this way, he hasn't noticed his own raging superiority complex.
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Is The Jedi Academy Trilogy any good? I've always wanted to read some of the Star Wars books, but I've only seen the movies so far.
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The Jedi Academy Trilogy is rather awful, as far as SW books go. In fact, stay away from Kevin J. Anderson's SW books completely. He tends to making the characters do really stupid things.
Read I, Jedi instead. It covers the same time period and events but in a much shorter form, as part of a much more interesting story, and with Corran Horn (drool) as the main character.
Also read the X-Wing books because they totally rock, and to find out who Corran Horn is.
Avoid the Black Fleet Crisis at all costs. Also avoid the books by Barbara Hambly; I love her other stuff but can't stand her SW books.
Read anything by Zahn or Stackpole or Allston. The Han Solo Trilogy (his early life, before the OT) are good. The Corellian Trilogy, some folks hate, I think are fun. Don't start with the NJO.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: The Jedi Academy Trilogy is rather awful, as far as SW books go. In fact, stay away from Kevin J. Anderson's SW books completely. He tends to making the characters do really stupid things.
That's a matter of opinion. I thought the JAT was one of the highlights of the New Republic era novels. However, pretty much everyone will tell you (correctly) that you should start with Timothy Zahn's trilogy: "Heir to the Empire", "Dark Force Rising", and "The Last Command". Move on to the JAT after that.
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Wow, neo, you're the first person I've seen who really liked them. I thought they were okay the first time I read them, they got worse with re-reading. Almost to a person the people I've talked with who have read them thought they were pretty bad (although the concept was good.) (And some people are neutral on them. But you're the first I've seen who really liked them.)
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quote:And Jacen's complete fall to evil in this one actually struck me as semi-comprehensible, given how rapidly they've had him descending so far. His recognition that Tenel Ka will almost certainly stop loving him once she figures things out -- but his determination to carry through with it anyway -- rings very true to me, for some reason, based on how self-centered they've been writing him so far.
It's funny (and more interesting, imo) because mingled in with his 'complete fall into evil' are some things which might seem evil but which aren't, in my opinion. The assassination, for example. Clearly justified, again imo.
In one sense, he's certainly self-centered. His motives are the important ones. The things which matter to him are his beliefs about the future, his motives, his lessons learned from the past, his intentions.
On the other hand, he's definitely not self-centered in the usual way: the things he's doing aren't for himself. In fact, almost nothing he's doing nowadays brings him pleasure or happiness, quite the opposite.
---------
IanO,
It's funny that you liked them in Bloodlines, but not here. Same author, after all. And I think the stage is clearly being set for there to be a rennaissance of Mandalorian culture in the next few SW years. They're recalling their scattered people, rebuilding their planet, their agricultural and industrial base, they're establishing alliances, and reviving their culture. Clearly they're 'on the make'. They're kind of like Fremen, I think, in terms of how much potential importance they can have.
quote:I was shocked at the sacrifice, and yet shocked at how non-calculating it was. I wanted to see an actual sacrificial attitude on Jacen's part, not a killing in self-defense.
I disagree that it wasn't non-calculating. Let's say that it was tactically non-calculating, but strategically it was anything but. Know what I mean? After all, Jacen may have killed her in the heat of battle, but he pursued her and hunted her in the tunnels quite coldly. And I don't think he was pursuing her to apprehend, either. Thus, sacrificing her and Ben's love was actually far from non-calculating. He just didn't tie her up in front of an altar and use a Special Sith Knife(tm.) on the day of a Sith Lunar Eclipse.
I agree her death was profound, and much more meaningful than Chewie's, although I think I liked him more than you did.
quote:Now, more than ever, I hate Jacen. His sneaking up on Ben and promising to find out who did this...Evil. No redemption for him. He is calculated every step of the way. Evil, not emotionally driven.
Well, I dunno. Can it be Evil with a capital 'E' in this situation, where the intent is solely (or at least, 90% as Jacen has noticed) for others? I don't know if he will ever find redemption, but I don't believe it's ever irrevocably gone. I also strongly disagree that it's not emotionally driven.
In my opinion, it's all been emotionally driven. He may tell himself otherwise, but it's all, all of it, ever since he committed to this path (or if not this specific path, one very like it) for his daughter and her future. The steps may be calculated, but the decision to start walking was an emotionally driven one. He's lost most of his 'heat' about it, but it's still there. What was his response when Lumiya finally learned that Jacen had a child (and thus Lumiya might put her at risk like she did with Ben)? He tried to murder her almost immediately. He'd been considering doing so for a long time, but what spurred him to do it? Daughter in danger.
quote:Jacen always seemed self-centered. Even his pacifism and arguments with Anakin, before and during the beginning of the Vong war always struck me as self-centered and self-righteous. I have seen nothing to changed that since then.
Well, in my opinion there are very few of the main cast of Force-wielders who aren't very self-centered and self-righteous. Luke, Mara, Jaina (especially her, imo-her self-centeredness is about as severe as Jacen's, but lacks his scope), Corran, on and on and on, they're all quite self-centered and self-righteous. However, there are only a few of them who have truly explored alternatives. Jacen is one of them, imo. Doesn't make him right, but it does make him more bearable (imo, again).
A few flaws I noted: one, why didn't Mara tell someone something explicitly before she left? "I'm going after Jacen, he's a Sith, I'm going to try and kill him," would've been thoughtful. She's a wise woman, it must've occurred to her that she wouldn't come out ahead in that little duel. Two, why after Jacen taught Ben his little technique didn't he start watching his back? They should've delved into that more deeply, I think, it would've made more sense. And three, why didn't Ben figure out how Mara was tracking him? He's been going to (literally) Spy School, and with his training and experience coupled with Mara's impossible knowledge, it shouldn't have been a mystery to him. ------------ Neo-dragon,
quote:I agree. That's always been Jacen's problem. He's always believed that no one can understand the Force and the Universe like him, and that therefore gives him the right to do anything for his version of "the greater good". And somehow, after about 15 years of thinking this way, he hasn't noticed his own raging superiority complex.
Can you name a Jedi who doesn't think this way, neo-dragon? They've all got superiority complexes, and they're all willing to put others at risk for the greater good. Jacen is willing to put others at risk for the greater good by being a cold-blooded dictator. The other Jedi are willing to put others at risk for the greater good by simply not killing people who really need killing. -------------
I enjoyed the Black Fleet Crisis. For one thing, it seemed to be one of the most 'authentic' (if that makes sense) in terms of technology and military matters, far and away in fact.
Otherwise, I agree with you, although I didn't despise JAT as much as you did. They were mediocre at best, though.
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I thought the Black Fleet Crisis was okay. Not a shining moment in the pantheon of Star Wars literature, but it wasn't horrible.
And while I didn't enjoy the JAT, I would say to read it once, when you've read other stuff, just don't let it be your introduction into the SWEU.
I'd have to agree that the Thrawn Trilogy is really the best place to start. It was the first trilogy I read in the EU, and nothing since has quite captured the same spirit of Star Wars (with the exception of the X-Wing books). I would follow it up with the X-Wing books, and of course I, Jedi, which remains my all time favorite Star Wars novel. Corran Horn rocks. If I weren't straight, I'd fight Anne for him, heck, I might fight Anne for him anyway.
The Han Solo trilogy I thought was cool, I REALL loved it when they went into Sabacc a bit more in depth than we'd seen anywhere else (and have seen since), and the Correllian Trilogy is something I could take or leave personally. I personally don't like the Barbara Hambly books at all in Star Wars, I read them once each, and found them lacking. I did like Shadows of the Empire, which is I think the second or third Star Wars book written, way back in the day. Some of the short story books are good too.
I maintain, by the way, that one day, Casino Sabaacc will be the biggest thing in Vegas. Once the technology catches up (well it's probably already there, we just have a little ways to go to make it more affordable), I think some Star Wars fan gambler geek will push it forward and get it going, at which point AC Crispin and George Lucas will make a bundle (again). I would love to play it personally.
I'm of mixed opinion overall on all books that take place after the Return of Thrawn Duology. There are individual pieces of gold in the whole series, and individual pieces of crap. But overall, I think it's okay, if not a overlong. And I've yet to form an opinion on the Legacy of the Force books.
Tom and Rakeesh -
Curse your giggling! Now I want to rush out and buy a book I can't really afford!
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Wow, neo, you're the first person I've seen who really liked them. I thought they were okay the first time I read them, they got worse with re-reading. Almost to a person the people I've talked with who have read them thought they were pretty bad (although the concept was good.) (And some people are neutral on them. But you're the first I've seen who really liked them.)
Well, I have to confess that I haven't read them in several years. If I reread them now it's entirely possible that my opinion would be different. All I know is that I remember the JAT being considerably better than the Black Fleet Crisis, the Corellian Trilogy, and many of the stand-alone books.
quote:Can you name a Jedi who doesn't think this way, neo-dragon? They've all got superiority complexes, and they're all willing to put others at risk for the greater good. Jacen is willing to put others at risk for the greater good by being a cold-blooded dictator. The other Jedi are willing to put others at risk for the greater good by simply not killing people who really need killing.
But no jedi who hasn't turned dark will take it upon himself to be the galaxy's saviour while fully aware that every other jedi would disagree with his actions. Even the most strong willed and proud jedi like Kyp Durron will grudgingly follow the orders of the council. Jacen is the only one who thinks he is above all authority. Even from the start of the NJO he was against the reformation of the jedi council because he didn't think that jedi should have to answer to anyone but the Force itself, and now he actually believes that his own understanding of the Force is superior to that of every Force user who has ever lived, including 1000 generations of jedi who came before, just because he spent a whole 5 years studying it .
When it comes to self righteousness and superiority complexes, Jecen Solo is light years beyond any other jedi... even his grand father.
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quote:All I know is that I remember the JAT being considerably better than the Black Fleet Crisis, the Corellian Trilogy, and many of the stand-alone books.
Well, that I'll give you (except the Corellian Trilogy, which, while I don't consider it "canon" or even plausible, I thought was great fun. I also liked The Dark Crystal, I think it was, but do NOT consider it canon, just like it as fun bad writing, kind of like the Nancy Drew books I still collect. So not good, but fun nonetheless. And I have to admit that "The Little Lost Bantha Cub" rocks. Someone completed the story online and I've read it to my daughter a few times. )
quote:Corran Horn rocks. If I weren't straight, I'd fight Anne for him, heck, I might fight Anne for him anyway.
And you know Mirax would come in, raise an eyebrow, sigh, and kick both our butts.
quote:I maintain, by the way, that one day, Casino Sabaacc will be the biggest thing in Vegas. Once the technology catches up (well it's probably already there, we just have a little ways to go to make it more affordable), I think some Star Wars fan gambler geek will push it forward and get it going, at which point AC Crispin and George Lucas will make a bundle (again). I would love to play it personally.
At one point some students at some school somewhere created a free online game program that wasn't perfect but was decent, and it was indeed fun to play.
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Would I be able to understand I, Jedi if I've only seen the movies? I'm not really looking to read alot of Star Wars books, I just thought the concept of a Jedi Academy sounded really cool and I wanted to read about it.
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Probably, although it would likely work better if you had read the X-Wing books first.
Edit:
Also, if you only want to read a couple books, I'd still recommend reading the Thrawn Trilogy starting with Heir to the Empire by Timmothy Zahn. To this day it is still one of the best groups of Star Wars books written, and since they were pretty much the first EU books you don't need anything except the original trillogy to know the whole background.
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quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Would I be able to understand I, Jedi if I've only seen the movies? I'm not really looking to read alot of Star Wars books, I just thought the concept of a Jedi Academy sounded really cool and I wanted to read about it.
You could follow the JAT pretty easily only having seen the movies if you insist on jumping ahead. "I, Jedi" might be a bit weird because it's written in the 1st person from the point of view of a character whom you're not familiar with.
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quote:But no jedi who hasn't turned dark will take it upon himself to be the galaxy's saviour while fully aware that every other jedi would disagree with his actions. Even the most strong willed and proud jedi like Kyp Durron will grudgingly follow the orders of the council. Jacen is the only one who thinks he is above all authority. Even from the start of the NJO he was against the reformation of the jedi council because he didn't think that jedi should have to answer to anyone but the Force itself, and now he actually believes that his own understanding of the Force is superior to that of every Force user who has ever lived, including 1000 generations of jedi who came before, just because he spent a whole 5 years studying it .
Kyp Durron is a particularly poor example for your point, and I'm not just talking about his days before his 'possession' by Exar Kun. Quite a few times in the past, he has quite openly and defiantly rejected the wisdom and politics of his peers in favor of pursuing his own agenda. He's just cleaned up his act after more than a decade of doing so, is all.
Truthfully, everyone believes they are above authorities they don't already agree with in some way. They might not show it in actions for fear of reprisals, but it's pretty true in my opinion.
In my opinion, he was right to be against the 'reformation'. Luke did a spectacularly bad job of managing the Jedi for almost the entire war. He even denied that responsibility for quite awhile, and millions or possibly trillions died because of it.
Jacen Solo doesn't feel he's got a better understanding of the force than everyone else alive (at least, prior to Lumiya's death). How could he? He explicitly acknowledged her as his teacher. He does think that he's got a better understanding of it than the rest of his peers, and before his turning, I'd say he was unequivocally correct in that assumption. As for 'that ever lived', well, that's just ridiculous. You're exaggerating there, there isn't any evidence within the story that he feels that way.
The Jedi of the Old Republic are also a pretty crummy example of how things should work. Talk about dropping the ball! They were much more self-centered than Jacen has been so far. They were more about order than they were about justice...ironically, very much like Jacen Solo (from the very first prequel movie, I lost all respect for the old Jedi, the ones who tolerated slavery)
quote:When it comes to self righteousness and superiority complexes, Jecen Solo is light years beyond any other jedi... even his grand father.
I disagree. Luke was too self-righteous in the YV wars, unwilling to take an aggressive stance out of fear and self-centered concerns. Billions and billions or even trillions suffered and died for his foolishness. Talk about self-righteous! Jacen doesn't have billions of deaths on his head, yet.
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Well, I think you can give Luke a bit of a discount, in that the deaths that occurred on his watch weren't actually caused by him, whereas Jacen is actually ordering the deaths of people.
Luke, hypothetically, could have saved billions of lives if he had acted aggressively from the very beginning of the YV invasion. But it's also possible that such aggressive action could have had unforseen consequences on the Jedi Order. It was their moral ambiguity that got the Order to where it currently is, which, with the exception of Jacen, seems to be a pretty stable and well organized institution. Their only real problem now is when the draw the line with respects to the actions of the government. Do they yield to the demands of the government or do they follow the teachings of the Force? I think some of Luke's answers to these questions are a total 180 of decisions he would have made at the start of the YV war. I think he needs to come halfway back from where he is. I think they've gone from being too pacifistic to too aggressive. Although when it comes to Jacen they might not be aggressive enough.
Anne -
I've played a few different online Sabaacc games, though always against a computer and never against other people. All we'd really need is playing cards with screens, all of them Wi-FI enabled and connected to the randomizer, or a simple computer. It might be expensive in the next few years, but in a decade I think they could totally do it.
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Sure, he gets a bit of a discount. But it's a question posed by some of my favorite fiction sometimes, that I haven't truly decided on. Which is the more moral, ethical thing to do...the decision which is in itself wrong or maybe even Evil, but nonetheless saves countless (in SW terms, billions or trillions) of lives? Or the decision which is moral and ethical and Good, but which leads nearly inevitably to war and suffering for millions and billions of people?
Also, I'm not entirely clear on how many deaths Jacen has directly ordered that could not be similarly laid to Luke. Open war doesn't count. So far Jacen has ordered one political assisination...but it was of an enemy chief of state in a state of war...and tortured one prisoner during interrogation.
And yet...Luke routinely mind-rapes people in interrogations, and I have to wonder just how different that is?
quote:Luke, hypothetically, could have saved billions of lives if he had acted aggressively from the very beginning of the YV invasion. But it's also possible that such aggressive action could have had unforseen consequences on the Jedi Order.
This is precisely the self-centeredness I'm talking about. 'Unforseen consequences on the Jedi Order'...truthfully I'm not very convinced of the goodness of an organization that places concerns like that over the welfare of trillions.
The truth is, the Jedi just aren't very self-aware. In fact, there were really only two (imo) self-aware Jedi, and one has become a Sith Lord (of a different style), and the other is dead.
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Who was the other? Vergere? Don't spoil me if it's from the most recent book. Or did you mean Lumiya?
I didn't necessarily mean that they weighed unforseen consequences for the structure of the Jedi Order against action, I simply meant that if they had acted before they were sure of themselves, then making a mature decision before they were mature enough to make it could have been a detrimental side effect.
Personally, I don't know how the hell it took Luke so long to figure out that the best defense is a good offense. He was part of the assault team that attacked the second Death Star, which was clearly an offensive action, and I can't imagine that he looks back at that as a foolish action, or as immoral, though I think I remember discussions about the immorality of killing everyone on board the first Death Star.
His fear was an entire Order of Dark Jedi, who took all that aggressive energy and went crazy with it, and went over the top and lost track of the morality of their actions. You saw what happened to Jaina when she went dark, and when Kyp was possessed, it wasn't an unfounded concern. He even said it himself at one point, would it be worth it to defeat the YV if in their place were a 100 Dark Jedi? And is it possible that we see the roots of the misguidance of the Jedi Order NOW in the decisions made back then? Luke, again, said it himself in one of the last couple books, that they've adapted a far too blazay (not sure how you spell that, blase with an accent? blasez?), aggressive attitude, and that it was time he instituted some order in the Order once again and brought them back to more peaceful ways.
The question you basically ask is, do the ends justify the means? During the YV war, yeah, I think they did. It's not a cut and dry question, as so many try to make it. There are some instances where you lose more in the prosecution of the war than you gain in victory. But that's not the rule. Anyway, I mostly agree with you.
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It's from the most recent book, so I won't spoil it.
quote:I didn't necessarily mean that they weighed unforseen consequences for the structure of the Jedi Order against action, I simply meant that if they had acted before they were sure of themselves, then making a mature decision before they were mature enough to make it could have been a detrimental side effect.
I understood what you meant. My point is, while Luke was worrying about how to treat a laceration and minimize scarring and infection in the future, the patient had a knife between its ribs.
100 Dark Jedi would arguably have been a helluva lot less dangerous than an ill-contested YV invasion. While Luke was undeniably concerned with safeguarding innocent lives...he was more concerned with safeguarding the integrity of the Jedi. That's the example of selfishness and self-involvement that I'm talking about.
There's almost zero "do what must be done" amongst almost all Jedi, even though honestly at that level of power I argue that it's not just right but necessary to have that mentality to some degree. In fact, there are only three or four Jedi I'd say have ever been shown as having that, prior to the last book: Jacen, Mara, Vergere, and Corran Horn.
Luke used to have it...back when he was too young and not thoughtful enough to much consider the repurcussions of his actions. Mara has had it for as long as she's been shown. Corran Horn has had it for awhile, he's willing to make some hard decisions. And Jacen clearly has it, and has ever since his brainwashing/reeducation under Vergere.
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I'm with you on that, especially on Corran being one of the Jedi in that small club.
I'd debate the 100 Dark Jedi vs. YV thing, but I think Hatrack's Geek-o-Meter would EXPLODE if we did that. Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Kyp Durron is a particularly poor example for your point, and I'm not just talking about his days before his 'possession' by Exar Kun. Quite a few times in the past, he has quite openly and defiantly rejected the wisdom and politics of his peers in favor of pursuing his own agenda. He's just cleaned up his act after more than a decade of doing so, is all.
I think that when comparing Kyp and Jacen the matter of degree is entirely relevant. No jedi who hadn't fallen to the darkside has ever taken personal responsibility for the fates of trillions of lives and the future of the Galaxy. Not counting when he was under the influence of Exar Kun, what exactly is Kyp's worst transgression against the Order or the government, taking a more proactive stance against pirates than he was supposed to? I say again that no jedi has matched Jacen's level of arrogance, especially not based on such dubious rationales.
quote: In my opinion, he was right to be against the 'reformation'. Luke did a spectacularly bad job of managing the Jedi for almost the entire war. He even denied that responsibility for quite awhile, and millions or possibly trillions died because of it.
Fair enough, but the fact is that Luke was recognized as the leader of the Order. He didn't assume authority through questionable means because his pride told him that he could do better than anyone else. Luke pretty much represents the antithesis of Jacen. He's often too humble to try and enforce his will upon others while Jacen is too arrogant not to. I'm not trying to say that Luke's side of the coin is much better, I'm just backing up what I said about Jacen having the biggest superiority complex.
quote: Jacen Solo doesn't feel he's got a better understanding of the force than everyone else alive (at least, prior to Lumiya's death). How could he? He explicitly acknowledged her as his teacher.
And what exactly did Jacen ever even try to learn from Lumiya? He used her as tool for doing his dirty work, and to help him understand the prophecy so that he could become an official Sith Lord. I don't think that he ever thought of her as a teacher/master so much as a stepping stone to his destiny. He had many such stepping stones during his travels, but as far as I can tell he just got what ever he needed from them and moved on since he feels that he's above any one philosophy or teacher.
quote: As for 'that ever lived', well, that's just ridiculous. You're exaggerating there, there isn't any evidence within the story that he feels that way.
I don't think that I am. He's indirectly stated that he understands the Force better than every jedi who lived before because he insists that they were all wrong in believing that the Force has light and dark sides. Since that was a fundamental understanding of the Jedi Order for as long as it existed, but he believes that he has proven it wrong in the 10 years or so since meeting Vergere, he's essentially saying, "1000 generations of jedi got it wrong but I figured out the true nature of the Force by the time I was 30!" He's also made it clear that he thinks he's better than even notable Sith Lords like Palpatine and Vader, who he sees as proud and selfish (while failing to note similar qualities in himself) to the point of self destruction.
quote: The Jedi of the Old Republic are also a pretty crummy example of how things should work. Talk about dropping the ball! They were much more self-centered than Jacen has been so far. They were more about order than they were about justice...ironically, very much like Jacen Solo (from the very first prequel movie, I lost all respect for the old Jedi, the ones who tolerated slavery)
Indeed, the Old Jedi Order was too rigid and set in their ways, but that hurt themselves more than the galaxy. They couldn't battle every injustice in the galaxy, especially those that occurred outside of the jurisdiction of the Republic. However, their peace keeping was responsible for a galaxy that hadn't seen a major war for 1000 years prior to the clone wars, and they managed this without trampling on people's rights and freedoms like the Empire did and Jacen is doing now. For all their faults, the old Jedi did serve the people and democracy. Jacen serves only himself because he believes that he is the highest authority.
quote:I disagree. Luke was too self-righteous in the YV wars, unwilling to take an aggressive stance out of fear and self-centered concerns. Billions and billions or even trillions suffered and died for his foolishness. Talk about self-righteous! Jacen doesn't have billions of deaths on his head, yet.
To be fair, I'd say that the Vong were just a bit more responsible for that than Luke. And if you want to talk about inaction making it worse, wasn't the New Republic government to blame? I already discussed what I think Luke's problem was above, but you're acting as if he could have prevented all those deaths if he had acted a certain way. The NJO only had 100 members! They couldn't have won or prevented the war no matter what they did anyway. If the jedi did nothing, people died. When they were proactive (like on Ithor) people died anyway, and the New Republic blamed the jedi for provoking the Vong, and used them as an excuse for why they shouldn't risk provoking them further. Luke's leadership and mindset weren't the real problem. Even though he had his doubts, the jedi under Luke's command fought the Vong at every major battle of the war.
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Jacen more powerful than Palpatine or Vader? That's easily believable.
Most powerful Jedi ever? Remains to be seen. Raw Force power can often times not matter. Anakin had the most midichlorians ever, and yet he lost an arm to Dooku, and his legs to Obi-Wan, and then got rocked by Luke a couple decades later (but then he was much weaker by then).
Yoda was both extremely powerful and very talented with a lightsaber, as well as being very wise (for the most part). And at the same time, less powerful Jedi have come closs to killing Luke through guile and trickery. Jacen knows a lot of Force tricks, but I don't think he'd stand up to Luke in a one on one battle, as Mara said a dozen times (seriously hammering it into our heads like a mantra) a couple books ago, Luke is the greatest swordsman in the galaxy.
Cripes I'm itching to read the next book. I have to check ebay or Amazon to see if I can find a cheap copy. It's unlikely the Library will have the most recent Star Wars EU book.
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Incidentally, the next book in the series, Inferno, by Troy Denning, is available through Amazon for preorder. It will be released on August 28th.
The book after that, also by Denning, is available for pre-order, Fury will be out on November 27th.
It's been awhile since I've bought a Star Wars book, but is $8 the going rate? I remember when all the paperback novels were $6.
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Well, in regard to the Mandos in Bloodlines, the Mandos in general and Boba in particular had a plot that intersected with the main plot (and provided some nice continuity and backstory that worked in the prequels). That intersection was at Jacen's interrogation of a certain mandolorian woman. So it never seemed irrelevant. Nor was its movement toward the main plot meandering or slow. Right now, I read those sections as, why should I care. I can see POSSIBLE hints. But is that Traviss and her crush or is this something that the other 2 authors will bring to fruition. IF the former, its a waste of time (and a bit of a disappointment).
I am certainly willing to hold things in abeyance. But if the next book (by Denning, I think) doesn't mention them at all (or even the next after), then I honestly have to wonder if the Mandos are relevant to the story-arch that was decided by all of them, are or simply Traviss' crush on Mandos culture in general. Cuz if its really that important, then at least one other should mention it.
I didn't expect Jacen to whip out his, patent pending (14553234), Sith Sacrificer 5000 model lightsaber and do it on a rock with the Sitharian Sacrificial Chorus in the background. But I excpected something similar to the death of Neilani. An 'I'm sorry, but I have to do this...', cold blooded, calculated, willingness to see something to the death, kind of thing. Yeah, he was going to kill Mara and chased her into the cave. But AFTER she had come after him. I honestly thought he'd have to off his girlfriend or daughter, because that kind of sacrifice would truly show how committed he was to peace. He said he would bring peace and order for his daughter above all (and started the Dark Nest war for that reason.) Irony being that, he would bring peace and order as a Sith, but the one person he wanted to do it for the most would not be able to enjoy it. A supreme test of his devotion to the cause and supposed unselfishness.
Thing is, Jacen is selfish. Just not about the things we usually think of as selfish. It's not money or women or even a good reputation that he craves the most. It's not even completely power, in and of itself. Quite simply, its being right when everyone else is wrong. Think about it. His whole life has been about going against the grain, trying to prove that he was right all along, whether it was deciding that a Jedi shouldn't fight, when clearly the will of the force was that it should, to taking over a government and sacrificing everyone he cared about's opinion of him. However much they hate him and want to destroy him, he can be the martyr, smug in the fact that he 'saved the galaxy and imposed peace,' and that true greatness is never appreciated. 'No good deed goes unpunished,' but at least HE knows how great he is and what he did for others.
That is the arrogance that is so different from Luke or any of the Jedi (though I detested Kyp for so long. It was only since Dark Nest that I really saw the writers get a handle on him and make him a more likable and stable person. I loved how he protected the Jedi from Omas by making up a story about a Jedi devil's advocate.) But Luke and the rest are never afraid to try to learn, to admit they are wrong, to seek out guidance from the force.
Trying to remember. Have we ever, once, seen Jacen seek guidance from the force in regard to the Corellian war? Has he ever tried to discern where the galaxy was headed, on his path of dictatorship? Or has he always measured everything against 'I am not doing this selfishly, like Anakin.' Hasn't his attitude been, 'I regret killing innocents. But I will keep doing it, even torturing them to death. I even can be wrong, like when I ordered the death of my parents on the flimsiest of grounds, but at the time I thought I was right, so it was a right action.' For him, the ends justifies the means. But, and this is a key point, the ends he is seeking (or the end he is seeking to avoid, like killing Luke if he didn't kill Neilani) is very nebulous in terms of actually bringing about peace.
Jacen has always had the, I know better than everyone attitude. Luke, at best, had the I'm don't think I know better. In fact, I'm sure I don't. So I better step back. In fact, he imposed order on the Jedi Order as a ploy, not because he wanted it. It backfired. Sure, Luke's attitude may have been the wrong one, or even protracted a war (which is highly debatable. 100 Jedi were NOT gonna stop the Vong in the first few years anyway.) But Luke has never willingly sacrificed innocent people, by themselves, to accomplish some nebulous good, at least not once he grew up to see more shades of grey (contrasting him as a kid blowing up the death star versus Jacen as a fully mature adult torturing people to death and killing acquantances and relatives simply to accomplish some larger goal.)
And that is why Mara's death fell flat, as a sacrifice. Because it was self defense. And thus, was not as chilling or cold-hearted as it could have been (and I wanted, weird me.)
Jacen and evil? ahh, it can be so hard to define. I think so. But then again....I don't know. I just know how cold it was when Jacen promised Ben they'd find out who did it, how two-faced and lying that was, knowing he caused Ben the greatest pain. But here, again, the sacrifice fell flat, because it was self defense. If he had decided what the sacrifice really was (Ben's respect for him, though it really could have been Allana) and then acted, then this would have been a hundred times worse. He would have knowingly caused pain, simply to increase his power. That is a Sith way (think of Darth Bane, after he was poisoned, in Path of Destruction).
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quote:I'd debate the 100 Dark Jedi vs. YV thing, but I think Hatrack's Geek-o-Meter would EXPLODE if we did that.
I ain't scared of that:p Basically, what would be on 100 Dark Jedi's agenda? Probably not conquering the entire galaxy systematically as a team, killing as many civilians as possible in the process. They'd be focused on wiping each other and the Jedi out.
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Neo-dragon,
quote:Not counting when he was under the influence of Exar Kun, what exactly is Kyp's worst transgression against the Order or the government, taking a more proactive stance against pirates than he was supposed to?
Why not counting when he was under the influence of Exar Kun? But alright. He's lied to the order, lied to friends within the order, and defied the order, many times, and people have died for it.
quote:Fair enough, but the fact is that Luke was recognized as the leader of the Order. He didn't assume authority through questionable means because his pride told him that he could do better than anyone else. Luke pretty much represents the antithesis of Jacen. He's often too humble to try and enforce his will upon others while Jacen is too arrogant not to. I'm not trying to say that Luke's side of the coin is much better, I'm just backing up what I said about Jacen having the biggest superiority complex.
How is that true, when the leader denies his leadership? A leader has to own up to the job first. For a long time, Luke didn't. To be fair, it's not Jacen's pride telling him he can do a better job...even though so far, from the point of actual governing, he's right. The true difference between Luke and Jacen isn't that Luke won't force his will on others, it's that Luke will squirm and writhe about it a lot longer than Jacen will.
quote:And what exactly did Jacen ever even try to learn from Lumiya? He used her as tool for doing his dirty work, and to help him understand the prophecy so that he could become an official Sith Lord. I don't think that he ever thought of her as a teacher/master so much as a stepping stone to his destiny. He had many such stepping stones during his travels, but as far as I can tell he just got what ever he needed from them and moved on since he feels that he's above any one philosophy or teacher.
His entire current philosophy derives from Vergere's and Lumiya's teachings, neo-dragon. He acknowledges that. He wouldn't even have taken steps to become a complete Sith Lord without it.
quote:I don't think that I am. He's indirectly stated that he understands the Force better than every jedi who lived before because he insists that they were all wrong in believing that the Force has light and dark sides. Since that was a fundamental understanding of the Jedi Order for as long as it existed, but he believes that he has proven it wrong in the 10 years or so since meeting Vergere, he's essentially saying, "1000 generations of jedi got it wrong but I figured out the true nature of the Force by the time I was 30!" He's also made it clear that he thinks he's better than even notable Sith Lords like Palpatine and Vader, who he sees as proud and selfish (while failing to note similar qualities in himself) to the point of self destruction.
You have to bear in mind he doesn't know much about those thousands of generations of Jedi. Almost all records of them were destroyed in purges by Palpatine. He knows that he disagrees with a fundamental interpretation of the Force held by current Jedi, and that's it. And besides, Luke was guilty of much the same hubris at Jacen's age. As for Palpatine and Vader...well, again, Jacen isn't being selfish. We've been over this, and selfish people don't live their lives for others. Proud? Jacen isn't proud.
quote:However, their peace keeping was responsible for a galaxy that hadn't seen a major war for 1000 years prior to the clone wars, and they managed this without trampling on people's rights and freedoms like the Empire did and Jacen is doing now. For all their faults, the old Jedi did serve the people and democracy. Jacen serves only himself because he believes that he is the highest authority.
Perhaps if the Old Jedi Order hadn't been so stupid and hidebound, they wouldn't have set the stage for Palpatine and the Empire so very nicely. Also, no organization which openly tolerates human (or, sentient) slavery can in my opinion be said to be serving "the people". Finally, what rights and freedoms is Jacen trampling that aren't often 'trampled' in wartime, as this is?
quote:The NJO only had 100 members!
Where'd you get that number? Anyway, once Luke pulled his head out of his ass and started treating the Order as a cohesive organization and used it to intelligently fight the Vong, even their small numbers were decisive in the victory.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Perhaps if the Old Jedi Order hadn't been so stupid and hidebound, they wouldn't have set the stage for Palpatine and the Empire so very nicely. Also, no organization which openly tolerates human (or, sentient) slavery can in my opinion be said to be serving "the people".
To be fair, the jedi were stretched pretty thin during the time of the prequels, and a galaxy is a pretty big place. There may have simply been nothing they could do about it. If I remember correctly, slavery wasn't allowed in the republic, and it primarily existed only in border worlds where there was very little centralized law.
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quote:Didn't Kyp try to blow up a populated solar system?
That was while he was controlled by Kun.
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:The NJO only had 100 members!
Where'd you get that number? Anyway, once Luke pulled his head out of his ass and started treating the Order as a cohesive organization and used it to intelligently fight the Vong, even their small numbers were decisive in the victory.
The number is stated in "Vector Prime" and probably some other books in the series. The "Unifying Force" also says that the Order was down to around half that number by the war's end. To put things in perspective, almost 200 jedi died in just the battle of Geonosis in "Attack of the Clones" (source: "Attack of the Clones" novelization). The OJO had about 10 000 members prior to the clone wars (source: "The Phantom Menace" novelization), and they still considered themselves to be spread way too thin when tensions starting rising. Realistically, 100 jedi can't do all that much on their own in a galaxy wide war. They needed support from the military that they weren't getting until after Coruscant fell. If Luke had been reckless and launched them headlong into the front lines, the jedi Order would have been wiped out, possibly for good this time.
I don't really see why you blame the old jedi for "tolerating" slavery. What exactly could they do about it? Go to all the fringe planets that weren't even under Republic jurisdiction with their lightsabers blazing, free all the slaves, and then... leave so it can start again when they're not watching? 10 000 jedi in a galaxy of something like one million inhabited worlds can't single handedly stomp out every injustice. It's a simple fact that they have to choose their battles.
As far as Jacen being selfless and living for others, I don't buy that. A lot of evil people convince themselves that they heroes. He's taken it upon himself to shape the galaxy as he, and only he, sees fit for the sake of lofty and vague ambitions like order and peace. Not unlike Palpatine and Vader, but Jacen convinces himself that he's better because his motives are pure. Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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I'm with Corran on this one, I don't think he was controlled so much as... influenced... And he did show later tendencies toward excessive force, even after what should have been a really harsh lesson.
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It's been amply demonstrated that in fact he wasn't controlled by Kun. If he were, Luke Skywalker would've been killed, it's as simple as that.
quote:I don't really see why you blame the old jedi for "tolerating" slavery. What exactly could they do about it? Go to all the fringe planets that weren't even under Republic jurisdiction with their lightsabers blazing, free all the slaves, and then... leave so it can start again when they're not watching? 10 000 jedi in a galaxy of something like one million inhabited worlds can't single handedly stomp out every injustice. It's a simple fact that they have to choose their battles.
They could've leaned on the Senate to do something serious about it, for one thing. They could've put a stop to it when they encountered it, for another. As for picking their battles...well, for example, one of the battles they picked was to interfere in a trade dispute as opposed to combating sentient slavery.
Hardly a ringing endorsement.
quote:As far as Jacen being selfless and living for others, I don't buy that. A lot of evil people convince themselves that they heroes. He's taken it upon himself to shape the galaxy as he, and only he, sees fit for the sake of lofty and vague ambitions like order and peace. Not unlike Palpatine and Vader, but Jacen convinces himself that he's better because his motives are pure.
You can not buy it all you want, but if you examine his own internal thoughts as shown in the books, he actually is doing what he's doing, over and over and over again, for others. He even broke it down in percentages, once. 90% for others, 9% because he wanted power, and 1% was doubting. You can argue that he's lying to himself, but that's a different matter.
Order and peace aren't lofty and vague ambitions when they're actually pursued and possible. And let's face it, for the masses, what he's done so far has actually enhanced order and peace in the galaxy.
Palpatine was clearly not pursuing power for peace and stability, he was pursuing power because he wanted it. With Palpatine, the percentages were reversed.
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quote:Palpatine was clearly not pursuing power for peace and stability, he was pursuing power because he wanted it. With Palpatine, the percentages were reversed.
In one of the books (perhaps Outbound Flight) I thought it was suggested that Palpatine was preparing and uniting the galaxy for an upcoming threat, possibly the Vong invasion. If so, his motive would be similar to Jacen's, perhaps even more noble. The percentages may be different when compared to Jacen, but I don't know that I'd go so far as to say they were reversed.
Both Jacen and Palpatine exhibit arrogance and overconfidence in their powers and insight into the Force. They both give too much importance to their Force visions and their abilities to shape the galaxy and the future.
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quote:You can argue that he's lying to himself, but that's a different matter.
That's exactly what I would argue. In my eyes, Jacen is no different than many other evil Sith Lords and dark jedi who came before, he just thinks he is (there's that self-righteous pride again).
Oh, and about Kyp, perhaps "controlled" by Kun isn't the right word, but at the very least he was heavily influenced. And to be fair, he wasn't even a jedi yet at the time.
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Yeah, in Outbound flight, Palpatine seeks to destroy the Jedi and form an empire. Clearly he wants revenge. But he also is concerned about the Far Outsiders, who would wipe the floor with the old republic.
Not saying Palpatine is altruistic, by any means. But there are also some motivations that could also be considered altruistic.
I mean seriously, aside from Lumiya's SAYING Palpatine was a megalomaniac, how different really is he than Palpatine. Yeah, Palpatine created a war to come to power. But couldn't that also be justified by the desired goal, to bring peace to the universe.
Ben even wondered, to Mara, for the average imperial citizen, how bad was the empire. The answer, I believe, was not very, if it wasn't interested in you. But for the majority of people, one could claim, it was no different- and even a sight better. How, exactly is it different for Jacen?
It's not. Once 'the ends justifies the means' is adopted, Palpatine and Jacen are the same, one is just a little further along the road than the other.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:I don't really see why you blame the old jedi for "tolerating" slavery. What exactly could they do about it? Go to all the fringe planets that weren't even under Republic jurisdiction with their lightsabers blazing, free all the slaves, and then... leave so it can start again when they're not watching? 10 000 jedi in a galaxy of something like one million inhabited worlds can't single handedly stomp out every injustice. It's a simple fact that they have to choose their battles.
They could've leaned on the Senate to do something serious about it, for one thing. They could've put a stop to it when they encountered it, for another. As for picking their battles...well, for example, one of the battles they picked was to interfere in a trade dispute as opposed to combating sentient slavery.
Hardly a ringing endorsement.
They couldn't have convinced the senate to do anything because as I pointed out, the worlds where it happened were outside of the Republic. Padme mentioned that there was no slavery within Republic/jedi jurisdiction. Stopping it where they encountered it wouldn't work either, because what would have happened after they left? They couldn't permanently post jedi on outer rim worlds just to sit there are make sure that slavery doesn't happen. They focused their manpower on trying to prevent major wars from breaking out.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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) until I think it was when I played KoTOR, and KoTOR II. They were pretty groovy there.
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