posted
You do your best, you try to do the right thing, and that's enough. That's a worthwhile life.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: When you first realize that there isn't a magic old man in the clouds who will punish the wicked and reward the good, it's a disappointment. That guy who cut you off in traffic won't get what's coming to him in the fiery inferno of Satan's halls, and you won't get an extra gold brick in your heavenly driveway for helping that old lady across the street.
While this may describe many, even most religious types, it is not necessarily the correct way to exercise one's faith. The lesson that pastors and ministers try to drill into their flocks is that everything you do should be for the sake of the glory of God, and should have nothing to do with one's own fears or desires. That doesn't mean it's easy do disregard those feelings, but it's tricky because if you tithe, perform charitable acts, or just generally be nice to people, but you do these things out of fear of Hell or desire for Heaven, well, you're not doing it for God. You're doing it for yourself.
quote:
So you make your own value, and you find value in what YOU want, not in what a several thousand year old books tells you was valuable to the people who wrote it.
That is a very simplistic view of the bible and it's influence on christians and jews today. (Irony alert- I'm saying this:) You might try to understand why we believe the way we do rather than demean us for our beliefs.
quote:
You don't have to hedge your bets against an unknown afterlife. You get to live for the day. You get to do good for good's own sake, not to appease a vengeful God. You avoid doing bad things because you realize that they hurt you and those around you, not for fear of eternal damnation.
Listen to religious people. They don't know what's going on any more than atheists do. They're struggling for meaning, trying to find their path, and they have a guide book. We're all in the same boat. I don't think anyone would argue that the love of family and friends is any more valuable to someone of one belief than someone of another.
But see? It looks like you know what you're talking about after all!
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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So you make your own value, and you find value in what YOU want, not in what a several thousand year old books tells you was valuable to the people who wrote it.
That is a very simplistic view of the bible and it's influence on christians and jews today. (Irony alert- I'm saying this:) You might try to understand why we believe the way we do rather than demean us for our beliefs.
Did you expect a ten page cited essay? An atheist's passing reference to the Bible (or any other religious doctrine for that matter) is probably going to be rather simplistic because, to be honest, we're just not that concerned with it. And how exactly was MightyCow's statement demeaning? It wasn't directed at, nor did it concern, Christians or Jews. It was directed at me, an atheist (or to anyone else that might find such advice applicable). Grow up. Stop trying to instigate. Before you start getting all pretentious over something you don’t agree with, why don’t you try understanding the context in which the words were used?
Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Well, before you tell me to "grow up," you might want to... ahem... gain some life experience.
I may be wrong to find it demeaning that someone insinuates that a book, which I believe to be the single most influentual source of wisdom this world has or ever will see, is simply a "several thousand year old book... [that] tells you [what] was valuable to the people who wrote it," but that seems preety damn demeaning to me. But I'm not gonna complain; for reasons obvious to some of the more venerable members here (like KoM.)
And if that "passing reference" was about a book that bears "little concern" for you, then I would suggest that you not reference it whatsoever, since you have expressed little knowledge of its contents.
To make it easy for you: "Why would you, a sociologist, care what niggers think about economic theory?"
You are basically saying that an African-American should not be offended at that statement, because he was not involved in the discussion.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
1. You assume quite a lot. What kinds of life experiences exactly do you think I’m lacking? You know nothing about me, so don’t judge me based on my experiences.
2. MightyCow never implied that the Bible was “simply” (your word) a “several thousand year old book... [that] tells you [what] was valuable to the people who wrote it” (MightyCow’s words with your insertions). The Bible IS (at least in parts) “several thousand years old” and it certainly DOES tell you “[what] was valuable to the people who wrote it.” He never said “simply.” You did. He didn’t insinuate. You did. Whether or not he believes this is the Bible’s only significance is an opinion he’s perfectly entitled to – and it says absolutely nothing of his experience or lack thereof.
3. “But I'm not gonna complain; for reasons obvious to some of the more venerable members here (like KoM.)” What is this…filler? FYI, no one’s judging you on your word count.
4. Thanks for the suggestion, but I think I’ll continue to reference what I need to get my points or ideas across. Again, you know nothing about me. I never expressed (prior to this post) ANY amount of knowledge of the Bible, great or small. Ironically, it is precisely my knowledge of (and experience with) Christianity that provoked my “loss of faith” in the first place.
5. Your crude argument by example is completely ridiculous. Neither I nor MightyCow made such insulting references to African-Americans or any other race, culture, or religion. Even if an insult to the Bible could somehow be construed, a book, no matter how holy you might believe it to be, is not a person.
Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Dude, you need to relax! I don't get it, especially after your first post on this thread, where you wrote some really nice things. Then you just jump all over me saying I trying to instigate and that I need to grow up. I thought my response to MightyCow was perfectly appropriate. I was being self-deprecating, and I wrapped it up with a compliment.
It looks to me like you have a problem with religious-types. Maybe you are instilling in me all the negative attributes that you have observed in other who are not atheists? Don't worry, I do the same thing.
My crude argument? Would you tell a black man that he shouldn't have been insulted? I doubt it. But you obviously feel that Christians can be demeaned and looked down upon, if they respond, come at them with both barrels blazing, as you are doing.
Word count? What the hell are you on about, anyway?
[edit] I need to throw this in: "Even if an insult to the Bible could somehow be construed, a book, no matter how holy you might believe it to be, is not a person.
I should not be insulted? Me personally- no, I shouldn't. I'm much worse than you with this sort of thing. But I am going to point it out anyway, because you probably have this attitude all the time, and don't understand why people get so frustrated.
oh, man, the irony is killing me!!!!!Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I appreciate the kind words rollainm, but I generally just try to ignore posts that don't actually address what I said, put words into my mouth, and then make outrageous slanders. You can't really win an argument with the other person is making things up.
Regardless, I do believe that the Bible a) is a book, b) was written, in its separate parts, a few thousand years ago, c) has not been updated, rewritten, or edited since that time, and thus contains a great deal of information that may be valuable from a historical standpoint, but also contains many pieces of advice which we should completely ignore, such as Paul's concern that women not speak in church.
True, the Bible has lots of moral guidance, but other belief systems, including atheism, have come to the same basic conclusions, that it's not good to murder people for example, without using the Bible. I understand that some people find it valuable, but it's entirely possible to live a full, wonderful life without directly following the Bible.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
So you didn't mean to be insulting. I accept that. Do you not see how one might have been insulted?
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I’m perfectly relaxed, thank you. Granted, my first response to you may have been a little direct. Perhaps this was overly influenced by your past contributions to this forum, but you do have an undeniable reputation for being an instigator.
What don’t you get? I provided my input on the topic at hand. MightyCow responded to the concerns I expressed with his own advice. You then made an unnecessarily condescending criticism (see #2 in my previous post) of his word choice, accusing him of being ignorantly religiously intolerant because he did not reference the Bible in a manner you felt was not as all-encompassing as it should have been. This is where I had a problem, though admittedly my response could have been a little nicer. Perhaps you did hit a nerve with me, but it certainly is not the one you now insinuate. I don’t have a problem with “religious-types,” nor do I think I’m somehow better or smarter than those with religious beliefs. I have a problem with the way you personally express your beliefs.
Let me clarify something that for whatever reason you don’t seem to understand. I’m not saying you shouldn’t express your opinion on something you disagree with if it isn’t addressed to you personally. You have every right to do so. I have a problem with your condescending delivery and your unnecessary and unjustified insinuations.
“Would you tell a black man that he shouldn’t have been insulted?”
By the example you gave? No, of course not. Would I tell a Christian that he shouldn’t have been insulted by a reference to the Bible because it did not meet his approval? I believe I just did.
Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: So you didn't mean to be insulting. I accept that. Do you not see how one might have been insulted?
Does it occur to you that, if people are going to be insulted by honest opinion, it's not worth worrying about insulting them?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Does it occur to me? Have you read my previous posts on this forum? Like rollainm pointed out, I don't seem to be very worried about insulting people. It looks to me like we're just three people who are made for each other. [Borat voice:] I like you guys!
Rollainm, I wasn't being condescending. I really don't want to get into this argument again, because it's been beaten to death: just because you took something I said to be condescending doesn't mean I was being condescending. I found MightyCow's statement insulting. I made it clear that it really didn't bother me, or at least I thought I made it clear- with the final statement I made in that post. He said he didn't mean it to be insulting. I have no problem with that.
But you just jumped in out of nowhere. I don't recall ever even being engaged by you before. But here you are, telling me to grow up and to stop instigating things. Now again, I don't have a problem with that. If I did, then I wouldn't be able to excuse myself. It's just an internet forum, though some have expressed that to them it is more. I understand that.
So what the hell am I arguing with you about? Oh, yeah. You guys are sooooo intolerant. What's your friggin problem with Christians? You think you're better than us? You think you know better than us? You believe we evolved from monkeys? Maybe you did, but God made me. Am I forgeting anything? ... Stop killing babies, you Nazis!!!
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:You think you're better than us? You think you know better than us?
Yes, as a matter of fact I do believe that.
quote:Maybe you did, but God made me.
Or more accurately, you think your god made you, from mud. So we're both monkeys - but one of us knows it. And, which is more, I'm a bigger and better monkey than you are, and more popular with the females.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I think we've wandered a bit off-topic. But since we seem to have gotten ourselves into a hole, I may as well dig it a bit deeper.
Most atheists think that strongly religious people are just a little bit nuts. To us, people who deny evolution seem just as crazy as people who think aliens are sending them messages through their dental hardware seem to you. Both groups of people believe strongly in a statement about the nature of the world, despite a singular lack of evidence. To deny a theory for which there is a great deal of evidence (evolution) because you believe in a contradictory theory with no evidence (creation of separate species by god) is, to us, bizarre.
The more polite among us keep our mouths shut, hoping that we can coexist more easily that way, since it is clear that peaceful coexistence is necessary if we are to survive, at least for the foreseeable future. The less polite among us frequently offend you by simply being open and honest about what we actually believe, for what seem to us to be good reasons. But we're all increasingly flabbergasted that religious people have parlayed their ignorance into a virtue, and elevated certain beliefs into those which cannot be questioned?
Why is it that some personal beliefs are cause for mockery and psychiatric treatment, and others cannot be discussed openly and honestly in polite discourse without those who argue on one side of the issue being labeled intolerant? After all, there's nothing prejudicial about being an atheist. Atheists are generally the opposite of prejudicial, which means judging in the absence of evidence; above all, the one thing that unifies atheists is that they want evidence before granting credulity.
Posts: 24 | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote: Originally posted by skeptical scientist: The less polite among us frequently offend you by simply being open and honest about what we actually believe, for what seem to us to be good reasons.
That's not impolite.
Otherwise, a very good description.
Posts: 930 | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Well, I don't think it is bizarre that you believe in evolution. I just think you've been horribly deceived. As for me believing in something for which not a shred of evidence exists, I would ask you to re-examine that opinion. Evidence is not always physical in nature. Just because you haven't felt the presence of God within your very heart doesn't mean I'm just imagining it.
In fact, I have circumstantial evidence that supports my belief: That feeling of vast emptiness you have inside of you? You know what I'm talking about. I don't have that.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Conversely, just because you have a vast feeling of emptiness inside your skull doesn't mean I need your imaginary Valium.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I felt that presence within me too Resh, but I came to conclusion that it was gas, and when I stopped believing in God, the feeling of awesome power never left.
Either God is cool with me being a damn, dirty atheist, or it's a self-created feeling of fullness, which anyone with self-confidence and personal pride can have.
How vast can the emptiness within a person really be? I've taken lots of biology courses, and there isn't that much empty room. Eat a good meal, and you're almost completely full.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I think a valuable use of my life is insulting people who believe obviously silly things on an internet forum. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
MightyCow, I just wanted to say I think you're handling yourself very well here, and I'm glad to know you.
The original question, about the value of how we spend our lives... I've pondered this a bit recently, and I have to say that I wish to live my life by concious choice. To Be Here Now, and to operate from a place of love. Love for life, and for my fellow creatures. Not there yet, but it is something to aspire to, certainly.
I think some people achieve that way of living through religion, while others use their religion as another way to feel to superior to everyone else, or to feel that they are more blessed or righteous than others.
But, dang. I'll put up with a dozen like Fred Phelps for every Mother Teresa or Desmond Tutu, and call it a bargain.
Great souls seem (to me, at least) to have certain characteristics in common. Sometimes it is tied to a religion, sometimes not. *shrug*
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: I felt that presence within me too Resh, but I came to conclusion that it was gas, and when I stopped believing in God, the feeling of awesome power never left.
Either God is cool with me being a damn, dirty atheist, or it's a self-created feeling of fullness, which anyone with self-confidence and personal pride can have.
How vast can the emptiness within a person really be? I've taken lots of biology courses, and there isn't that much empty room. Eat a good meal, and you're almost completely full.
By all indications, you believe your existence is entirely physical. That seems pretty empty to me.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
How can life be empty when it's filled with physicality?
Do you propose we fill life with some sort of soul that we can't touch, taste, see, smell or hear? I don't see how having a soul would make existence any less empty than not having one.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
I guess my life would be more "full" if I could ride a dragon while shooting fireballs from my fingertips and dancing with faeries on the surface of a diamond lake.
Even without the imaginary friends, I find my life to be extremely fulfilling and meaningful. I'm sorry that you don't seem to be satisfied with what's in front of you.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Well, I don't think it is bizarre that you believe in evolution. I just think you've been horribly deceived. As for me believing in something for which not a shred of evidence exists, I would ask you to re-examine that opinion. Evidence is not always physical in nature. Just because you haven't felt the presence of God within your very heart doesn't mean I'm just imagining it.
I don't deny that you feel something which you believe is the presence of god. Certainly people have feelings which they describe as spiritual, and often attribute to god. I merely question whether that qualifies as evidence that god exists. You attribute this feeling to god mainly because other people around you have said that god is the source of this feeling inside them, and so forth back for hundreds or thousands of years. In fact, the most obvious reason why people associate these feelings with the existence of a deity is because thousands of years ago they became associated, and this association has been passed down through the centuries. But people thousands of years ago thought many things which turned out to be false, so that hardly counts as evidence.
Spiritual experience can have many sources. Some achieve it through prayer. Some achieve it through meditation. Some achieve it through hallucinogens. Einstein seems to have achieved it through doing physics, based on his identification of the nature of reality with the concept of god.
The mere fact of spiritual experience is not evidence of the existence of god, nor is it dependent on belief in the supernatural.
quote:In fact, I have circumstantial evidence that supports my belief: That feeling of vast emptiness you have inside of you? You know what I'm talking about. I don't have that.
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about; I am aware of no such feeling of emptiness.
One of the purposes of this thread was to determine what types of things people consider important, and what people in this thread have consistently found to be the most important are various types of interpersonal relationships. Atheists often claim to be very fulfilled, and if asked to point to a source of their fulfillment, they will often point to interpersonal relationships. If we are to use anecdotal evidence to judge, these can be just as fulfilling as any personal sense of a relationship with god.
quote:In fact, I have circumstantial evidence that supports my belief: That feeling of vast emptiness you have inside of you? You know what I'm talking about. I don't have that.
This is unwittingly the funniest thing you've ever said on this forum.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: By all indications, you believe your existence is entirely physical. That seems pretty empty to me.
Do you see the important word in this sentence, which indicates that you should not be projecting onto other peoples' feelings?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
It seems to me that the answer to "What is a valuable use of your life?" depends almost entirely on a more fundamental question: What is valuable? And I am certain that I cannot offer any answer to that second question which will satisfy everyone reading this, or give any proof to completely justify what I believe. However, I can tell you what I think....
I think there are many things that people value, varying from one person to the next. Some people love their husband or wife. Some people care most about their children. Some love their career. Some love a work of art. Some love money. Some love themselves. Some love excellence in a sport. Some love humanity as a whole. Some love God. And almost all of us care deeply about our own health and happiness. In truth, I think it is possible to love anything. Who is right and who is wrong?
I don't think anyone is right and anyone is wrong. It doesn't really matter what you love. Instead, what matters is the love itself - the value that you assign to things. I believe that value itself is the one thing that is fundamentally valuable in itself. There are different names for "value" - love, passion, enthusiasm, etc. - but it is only this, the meaning that we assign to things that is ultimately, absolutely, objectively, and inherently meaningful. Or, in other words, it is not the work of art that is valuable, but rather the value we assign to it that is truly valuable.
But, the way I see it, there is a corollary to the above claim. It stems from the fact that you need a person in order for that person to value things. Without conscious beings like us, there would be nobody to love things, and thus there would be no value in this world. We make the world meaningful. For that reason, I believe we can conclude that we too are inherently valuable, because value arises from us. The same would go for any conscious, experiencing being capable of passion or love - whether it be human beings, aliens, animals, or God.
So, in summary, my belief is that there are two things that are inherently valuable in the world: (1) Value itself, and (2) the people who create value by caring about things. These two things are inseperable. All other value in the world stems indirectly from those fundamental goods, based on what we choose to assign value to. This is my opinion.
So how does this help me answer "What is a valuable use of your life"? I think it leads to three conclusions. Firstly, a valuable use of your life is the pursuit of something, ANYTHING, that you find deeply valuable. For many people that might be raising a family. For others it might mean pursuing the solution to a scientific problem. For others it might be somthings entirely different. It doesn't matter. What matters objectively speaking is that it matters to you. Secondly, a valuable use of your life is helping others pursue something, ANYTHING, that they find deeply valuable. Again, that varies from person to person. What mattes objectively speaking is that it matters to them. And thirdly, the MOST inherently valuable use of your life is what combines both of the first conclusions most successfully - whatever allows you to puruse what deeply matters to you while simultaneously helping others to pursue what deeply matters to them.
I happen to think certain things do this better than others. Selfishness tends to let you pursue your own concerns, but cancels that out by hurting the ability of others to pursue their own concerns. Conversely (and far more rarely), I think excessive selflessness often lets others pursue their own concerns, but cancels that out by hurting your own ability to pursue your own concerns. The ideal, I think, is to align your concerns with the concerns with others, so the two become one and the same. And the way to do this, I think, is through relationships. Husbands and wives, parents and children, friends - these relationships allow people to care deeply about one another, in a way where the fulfillment of one person automatically makes the other happy as well.
So, almost anything can be a valuable use of your life, if you or someone else cares deeply about whatever it is you are doing. But many of these passions, such as artistic endeavors, scientific research, or a personal challenge, are often solitary, one-sided passions. Thus if you want to know the MOST valuable uses of your life, I think they are the mutual relationships that allow different people to care about one another. I think it is the love or friendship that one person has for another. Love thy neighbor and you have a lived a valuable life, almost no matter what else you do. Care about nothing and you have wasted your life.
But that is just my opinion on the matter.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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Not exactly. Value is objectively and absolutely valuable, as are the people who create it. The only thing that is subjective is what those people draw value from.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Well, in my view, it means if you are (for example) sitting around at home watching a TV show that you don't really care much about, you should get up and do something that really matters to you - or if nothing matters to you, do something that matters to someone else.
And I think it suggests it is a good idea to care about something, or someone. I actually know people who I suspect violate that advice to some degree, and I do think they are not getting as much out of their lives as they could because of it.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Olivet: MightyCow, I just wanted to say I think you're handling yourself very well here, and I'm glad to know you.
Thanks. I have a small confession: I cribbed that from Christianity. Back when I was a Christian, it really bugged me when people tried to convince others how awesome God was, but acted like idiots or jerks. I felt that if you wanted to convince someone about the awesomeness of Jesus' love, you should behave in a way that Jesus would have approved of.
Now that I'm no longer Christian, I try (and let me tell you, sometimes it's tough) to act in a way that demonstrates the charity and love that I felt were valuable lessons I learned from Christian teachings, and show by example, that a non-Christian can be a perfectly good person.
Every so often, someone tells me what a good, Christian example I'm setting, and it really makes my day. Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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