posted
I'm relieved to hear that "QFT" stands for "quoted for truth". I've had a different group of words (but the same basic idea) go through my head whenever I've seen that one. Now I won't cringe whenever I see it. Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I don't believe in God, why exactly should I show any special respect for those who do, or the places in which they do it? No disrespect is necessary, but special respect is not warranted either.
What's the difference between "respect" and "special respect"?
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I interpreted "special respect" to mean respect that is above and beyond the normal respect. For example, I think many people believe that one should be more respectful in a church than in, say, a grocery store.
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Threads: I interpreted "special respect" to mean respect that is above and beyond the normal respect. For example, I think many people believe that one should be more respectful in a church than in, say, a grocery store.
I think equal amounts of respect would lead to different limits on behavior.
I would raise my voice in a grocery store to talk to my wife at the opposite end of the aisle, but still fully respect the rules/expectations of the owners of the store. Raising my voice in a church (in most circumstances) would show disrespect.
I think Orincoro might mean "reverence" by "special respect".
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I just don't believe in them very strongly- why should I show respect for something I don't believe?
Because they should also respect the things that matter to you. It isn't the belief you are showing respect for, but the fact that some people believe it strongly.
At least that is how I view it, most of the time.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Originally posted by Orincoro: I just don't believe in them very strongly- why should I show respect for something I don't believe?
...Because when you go into a privately owned place that's open to the public, you agree to respect its rules. I may think it's stupid to have to wear a jacket and tie to go to a restaurant, but I agree to follow that rule by choosing to dine there.
Given the historic and architectural importance of many cathedrals (and for that matter, temples, mosques, shrines, etc.) it would be a crying shame if those in charge stopped allowing admission to the public for fear of them behaving like idiots.
I'm not exactly offended by what they did- I'm kind of of the opinion that if God exists, he's above such petty displays of pique, and if not, it really doesn't matter- but I think even- maybe especially- "devout" atheists really ought to be saying, "You morons. What did you think you were proving?"
That said...
quote:I'm sure there's a clever joke about catholicism and atheism in this, but I just can't grasp it.
"I hope, with an attitude like that, you're now heading to Confession!"
"As a matter of fact, I am. Wanna join me?"
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Because they should also respect the things that matter to you. It isn't the belief you are showing respect for, but the fact that some people believe it strongly.
It's not even that. It's that you respect the people, and they put a high value on this thing.
If your friend's mother asks you not to play basketball in the living room so you don't accidentally break her shelf of Hummel figurines, you don't -- not because the figurines are valuable to you, but because she as a human being is valuable to you and you do not wish to cause her emotional distress (or, at the very least, you enjoy visiting your friend and recognize that her continued goodwill is required.)
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
This is my issue with the subject line of the thread. How about, "not even confessional booths are safe from a lack of decorum?"
Athiests are as able as (and in many cases more able than) religious people to be understanding of the feelings of others. This is just a case of two people acting out sexually. Atheism didn't cause them to be screwed up people.
I hasten to add that it's ridiculous to assume that religious people don't do this type of thing from time to time. I'm sure it happens.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Because they should also respect the things that matter to you. It isn't the belief you are showing respect for, but the fact that some people believe it strongly.
It's not even that. It's that you respect the people, and they put a high value on this thing.
If your friend's mother asks you not to play basketball in the living room so you don't accidentally break her shelf of Hummel figurines, you don't -- not because the figurines are valuable to you, but because she as a human being is valuable to you and you do not wish to cause her emotional distress (or, at the very least, you enjoy visiting your friend and recognize that her continued goodwill is required.)
Bingo! You don't do things like this in a Cathedral out of respect for the people who believe it a sacred place whether you share that belief or not.
Its not about whether you are Catholic or Athiest, its not about whether you share the beliefs or find them inane. Its about whether you respect the people enough to grant them the simple courtesy of not defiling their stuff.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: This is my issue with the subject line of the thread. How about, "not even confessional booths are safe from a lack of decorum?"
Athiests are as able as (and in many cases more able than) religious people to be understanding of the feelings of others. This is just a case of two people acting out sexually. Atheism didn't cause them to be screwed up people.
I hasten to add that it's ridiculous to assume that religious people don't do this type of thing from time to time. I'm sure it happens.
posted
I'm an atheist. These people are gross. Of course anything beyond hugging, handholding, and kisses that theoretically could have been between family members are all I ever need to see in public.
I think the thing that people forget is that atheists aren't a uniform group. I can't speak for all atheists, but in a lot of cases, atheists reject their families' beliefs on a very individual and personal basis. Even if they don't believe, they certainly know better than to do a lot of things. Generally this is a result of parenting.
Also, most sane adults know better to hop in a closet and engage in sexual activity if a meeting of any kind is going on in the room that contains said closet. To me, the "we're atheists" defense has zero credibility.
I really hate it when people make generalizations about atheists.
These people aren't doing any favors to the Goth community either.
Okay, so what would you think of the story if the couple was in the Italian state house and said, "oh, we're Americans" as their defense?
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Well, it's equally ridiculous. The defense they used is just dumb, what they were doing is just socially unacceptable. Whether or not religious people want to see it as an affront to God is immaterial to me- it's just indecent.
I show no reverence for churches or cathedrals or religious ceremonies, because I find them ridiculous. I am sometimes bothered by the lack of delineation between "respect" and "decorum" or "reverence." I think personal respect is important, and I think reverence is dangerous. Respect for a group of religious people, and respect for the actual church they use are two different things. I am not reverent of churches, and find them just as other buildings are. I don't worry that I am thinking bad thoughts in church, and since I regularly perform in a particular church as part of a university performance group, this is my only call to be in a church.
When I'm there, I am sometimes perplexed by the superstitious attitudes of others, some of whom claim not even to be religious. I remember putting my foot on someone's skateboard, and rolling it a few inches during an idle moment between rehearsals, and being told... "dude, you're in a church..." Well, so what? In that particular case, I just couldn't see the correlation between the quiet movement of my foot and the setting- God doesn't want people rolling on his floors? And the person who said this is not religious. The superstitiously reverent and careful attitude that must be maintained in a church, even in solitude, doesn't resonate with me.
Now, I'm not going to be having sex in the confessional, but I wouldn't do that anywhere, just like I wouldn't raise my voice in a movie theater, because its just rude.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:I show no reverence for churches or cathedrals or religious ceremonies, because I find them ridiculous.
Showing less reverence for something is fine. Showing no reverence simply because it has no value to you indicates that the people who revere it have no value to you, either.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Orincoro: The subject is intentionally alittle deceptive in order to be humorous. It plays on the long standing incorrect belief that atheism is like some sort of disease that will cause people to abandon morality. I found the people's defense that their atheism makes them doing it in a church just like doing it anywhere else entertaining, and decided to create a thread where I could enjoy hatrackers take it wherever they would.
The bishop's translated remarks were also quite funny IMHO.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:I show no reverence for churches or cathedrals or religious ceremonies, because I find them ridiculous.
Showing less reverence for something is fine. Showing no reverence simply because it has no value to you indicates that the people who revere it have no value to you, either.
Tom, are you using reverence as synonymic with respect? I don't have any reverence for monotheistic religious buildings, nor will I act as if I did, but I'll show respect for them.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I'll show respect, but not reverence. I don't, let's say, worry particularly about my own behavior or thinking, and I am aware that I am only acting respectful, not feeling reverent.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Well, they're certainly not my type of atheists! Must be from differing sects.
But seroiusly, atheism shouldn't mean that you're an insensitive moron about things. Even if they don't respect "God," the least they could have done was shown respect for the place where people show their respect for God.
I'd have to think that there was not a little bit of anger involved in the act...
Posts: 1862 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I suppose there might have been anger, but I think people who act out sexually in public places are just thrill seeking, it's a symptom of having zero impulse control, and being less than smart.
Again, difficult for religious people to understand as it is, atheists not only "don't respect God" they don't believe that there is anything to respect. We all have a cultural image of a "God" but the cultural image is not something to be respected or revered if one does not see it as symbolic of a deity. I see it as symbolic of a social construction, and I don't revere that symbol.
:Unrelated: It is something interesting I ran across in my musicology studies, that some musical and linguistic theorists have suggested that hieroglyphic symbolism, such as the word "God" in English, or by extension a weak-cadential IV-I figure in western music (the "Amen" chords), are not merely reflections, or placeholders of inarticulate belief, but the actual roots of belief themselves. Without the deeply contextual use of the word "god" in our culture, we might not actually be reminded often of a need for such a concept in our lives- if the symbol were not articulated, then the belief might not exist.
This particular chapter was on 20th century symbolism, and how folk themes (actual melodies) were transmitted directly into popular compositions, as hieroglyphic symbols of identity, without which symbols, a culture would have no means of transmitting itself across generations. The idea was that the symbols, such as melodies, exist and are altered through history, but that they are largely monolithic structures from which each generation draws its own unique and contextualized conclusions- sort of like the black obelisk in 2001: A Space Odyssey. We always assume that we create our cultural identity and express it through art, but in large part, we are forced to identify with art and symbols that are already there for us to interpret. I find that my view of "God" is reconciled with that idea.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
This thread made me spew my drink all over my screen. I had my doubts, but I'm so glad a opened it. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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