quote:Dog's have no problems eating human carcasses when they get hungry enough
Dogs who would give their lives for the herd they guard will eat the carcass if one of the animals they guard dies. To anthropomorphize, they're just cleaning up.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
First thing off the top of my head: a minor backstory mention in one of Cory Doctorow's stories that explained how artificial intelligence began. Spambots were evolving to sound more human and thus get past the filters, filters were getting smarter to catch the spambots, and they continued in an intelligence arms race until AI was born.
In all my years of reading SF, this was the first explanation of AI that sounded plausible Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I really feel like I ought to kill an animal now if I am going to continue eating meat, it's a novel sensation to read a Hatrack thread and feel like now there's something I ought to do.
I'm not sure who is on which page, but I think it has to be noted that one should probably kill an animal that is at somewhat similar to the animals that one is going to eat, say the same family or the same order.
I note this because I don't think killing fish or crustaceans is going to have the same effect that people seem to be shooting for which is what one might get when killing a mammal.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have hunted and have eaten what I've hunted. Oddly, I suspect I would feel differently -- and worse -- about eating a domesticated animal I'd raised from birth for the purpose, even though logic should suggest otherwise.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Has no one mentioned any Asimov contributions here? The 3 laws of robotics make for some pretty intriguing stories. Not to mention the concept of psychohistory.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I have hunted and have eaten what I've hunted. Oddly, I suspect I would feel differently -- and worse -- about eating a domesticated animal I'd raised from birth for the purpose, even though logic should suggest otherwise.
If your logic suggests otherwise, I think your logic has failed to account for emotional ties.
Logic is a tool, not a lifestyle (Vulcans be damned). It should account for or at least attempt to acknowledge the variables introduced in a situation where an emotional response is a part of the equation.
Posts: 1295 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: First thing off the top of my head: a minor backstory mention in one of Cory Doctorow's stories that explained how artificial intelligence began. Spambots were evolving to sound more human and thus get past the filters, filters were getting smarter to catch the spambots, and they continued in an intelligence arms race until AI was born.
What story was that from? I read something similar in a story recently, but I don't think it was a Doctorow story.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: Has no one mentioned any Asimov contributions here? The 3 laws of robotics make for some pretty intriguing stories. Not to mention the concept of psychohistory.
quote:As you and I have discussed, I feel like I should kill an animal at least once, given that I eat them.
I think this is something that every meat-eater should do.
I've thought about asking the farmer I often buy meat from at my local farmer's market if I could somehow participate in a slaugher, but I don't imagine that he'd say yes. I probably wouldn't, were I in his place. I'd be worried about someone who didn't know what they were doing causing my animal greater pain than was necessary. I'm not really sure how to go about acquiring this experience, honestly.
quote:
quote:I don't think that I could kill a creature that I loved for food, though, unless I was starving (and even then I'd feel quite a bit of regret). How is it that you don't feel guilt about it, given that you loved the kid?
That goat existed for one purpose only, and that was to be eaten. There's no reason for me to feel more guilty for killing and eating him than I do for killing (indirectly) and eating the hamburger I buy at a restaurant.
I don't dispute the fact that the goat died for the purpose that you bought or raised it for, but I disagree with the assertion that there's no reason for you to feel more guilty for killing and eating him than for eating a burger made from an animal that you didn't know. We feel a greater emotional response when a loved one dies than when we read in the paper about a stranger dying in a car accident. Similarly (not identically--I realize that there isn't a perfect equivalence here), I'd feel a greater emotional response to slaughtering a being I loved than I would while enjoying the fruits of a slaughter of a being that was a stranger to me.
quote:As far as meat-bound livestock is concerned, he had a very good life. He was happy, comfortable, and the end was quick and humane.
Very true. However, if I were the one who had loved the creature, I'd still feel guilty. I'd tell myself that in an attempt to rationalize away the guilt, but I'd still be feeling it. Note that I'm not arguing that you should have the same response as I would, or that my response is superior to yours.
quote:Me loving him did not in any way elevate him above the status of livestock
For me it would. Of course, if I were to continue raising livestock, I would necessarily do one of two things: either stop making emotional connections to animals that I would eventually be slaughtering or develop emotional callouses that would allow me to kill the ones I'd developed an emotional attachment to without guilt.
quote:I've never been one to anthropomorphize critters and pretend that they're funny-shaped people or that they're part of the family.
I don't think that I anthropomorphize animals, but I recognize that mammals, at least, have complex emotional lives. I suspect that birds do as well, but I don't feel like I can say that I know that they do. Do you consider that anthropomorphization?
quote:But the changes that it has made have all been good ones. It's made me more aware of the cost of doing business as a practicing omnivore, which has helped make me more away of the CDB in the first world with a first world lifestyle. It's made me more appreciative and grateful for what we have.
Very cool.
quote:And it's made it so that my dinners are tastier than they were before. Or at least they seem that way.
quote:I think this is something that every meat-eater should do.
I said this too strongly before. I think that this is something that would be good for every meat eater to do.
We've actually had people ask to do that. We said yes.
We didn't have them do the actual killing, but they were part of the process of killing, cleaning, and butchering.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Similarly (not identically--I realize that there isn't a perfect equivalence here), I'd feel a greater emotional response to slaughtering a being I loved than I would while enjoying the fruits of a slaughter of a being that was a stranger to me.
Well, yeah, of course there's going to be a greater emotional reaction. But that doesn't translate to greater guilt. And even if it led to feeling greater guilt, I'd know that that was an irrational feeling, which would greatly ameliorate it.
quote:Of course, if I were to continue raising livestock, I would necessarily do one of two things: either stop making emotional connections to animals that I would eventually be slaughtering or develop emotional callouses that would allow me to kill the ones I'd developed an emotional attachment to without guilt.
I know people who do it both ways. "Never name something you're going to eat", as they say.
quote:I don't think that I anthropomorphize animals, but I recognize that mammals, at least, have complex emotional lives. I suspect that birds do as well, but I don't feel like I can say that I know that they do. Do you consider that anthropomorphization?
From what you said there, I can't tell. Not necessarily.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Similarly (not identically--I realize that there isn't a perfect equivalence here), I'd feel a greater emotional response to slaughtering a being I loved than I would while enjoying the fruits of a slaughter of a being that was a stranger to me.
Well, yeah, of course there's going to be a greater emotional reaction. But that doesn't translate to greater guilt.
For me it would.
quote:And even if it led to feeling greater guilt, I'd know that that was an irrational feeling, which would greatly ameliorate it.
Hm. I've never tried to rid myself of guilt by recognizing intellectually that it was an irrational feeling. I'm not sure that I could. If I could, it would certainly take a lot of effort on my part; just the act of realizing the irrationality of my feelings wouldn't mitigate the emotion for me, but it might get me on the track to doing so.
quote:I know people who do it both ways. "Never name something you're going to eat", as they say.
This was the approach my parents took when I was tiny (I can dimly remember our having cattle, but I don't remember our having them slaughtered). Before I was born, they had a calf that they just fell head over heels in love with, and they both carried guilt for having him slaughtered for years.
quote:
quote:I don't think that I anthropomorphize animals, but I recognize that mammals, at least, have complex emotional lives. I suspect that birds do as well, but I don't feel like I can say that I know that they do. Do you consider that anthropomorphization?
From what you said there, I can't tell. Not necessarily.
What further information would you need?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:I've never tried to rid myself of guilt by recognizing intellectually that it was an irrational feeling. I'm not sure that I could. If I could, it would certainly take a lot of effort on my part; just the act of realizing the irrationality of my feelings wouldn't mitigate the emotion for me, but it might get me on the track to doing so.
For the most part when I say "Porter, it doesn't make sense for you to feel that way. Knock it off!", I listen and obey.
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: For the most part, when I say "Porter, it doesn't make sense for you to feel that way. Knock it off!", I listen and obey.
That is pretty unusual, I think.
Um . . . I'm guessing the technique works less well when applied to family members? Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
And The Devil Will Drag You Under was the first book I read that had a "There is infinite worlds" idea to it. I still think that is one of my favorite concepts.
Posts: 549 | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Someone earlier in the thread suggested the Nullentropy Capsules, having read the last two Dune books that was indeed an interesting concept.
Posts: 11 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Graveyard Book- boy raised by ghosts; just one of those simple yet brilliant ideas.
The Wheel of Time series- saidin/saidar- magic having a male and female half. I'd never read this sort of thing before (not sure that I have since either), but I really like the idea.
Brandon Sanderson's also really good for interesting concepts: Mistborn: allomancy- great and original, detailed magic system that makes for the coolest action scenes I've ever read in a novel. Mistborn: SPOILERS-IF YOU PLAN ON READING THE NOVELS DO NOT READ AHEAD - - - - - - - The villain of the series actually alters all the written "Chosen One" prophecies of the world, thus manipulating the heroes into setting him free; dang, that was an awesome twist-ending to book two! - - - - -
Posts: 132 | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: I've thought about asking the farmer I often buy meat from at my local farmer's market if I could somehow participate in a slaugher, but I don't imagine that he'd say yes. I probably wouldn't, were I in his place. I'd be worried about someone who didn't know what they were doing causing my animal greater pain than was necessary. I'm not really sure how to go about acquiring this experience, honestly.
While taking a rural ministry immersion class I toured a pork packing plant/slaughterhouse. We didn't actually do anything to contribute to the killing, but we did wade through pig blood (in our plastic bootie covered shoes) and almost got knocked over by flash-chilled hanging pig carcasses traveling at high speed.
Oddly, that experience put me much less off eating pork than sitting in on an autopsy during my chaplancy internship (The ribs! Oh, the ribs!). But I got over that in a day or two.
I also spent a weekend on a dairy farm and helped to care for and milk cows that were related to the hamburger I ate for supper that night. Yummiest hamburger I ever had. The family I was with told us the name of the cow that it was from, but I don't remember it.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's not uncommon for the question "Who are we eating tonight?" to be asked at our dinner table.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:First thing off the top of my head: a minor backstory mention in one of Cory Doctorow's stories that explained how artificial intelligence began. Spambots were evolving to sound more human and thus get past the filters, filters were getting smarter to catch the spambots, and they continued in an intelligence arms race until AI was born.
Chris,
That's very similar to the way I thought The Matrix should have begun. Humans enslaved themselves by building better and better Virtual Reality games/simulations, until the humans lost touch with their reality, and the agents interacted more and more directly with human thought until they became sentient.
Boy was I disappointed with the whole humans enslave robots thing.
quote:It's not uncommon for the question "Who are we eating tonight?" to be asked at our dinner table.
When my cousins slaughtered their first piece of livestock for food, their children were distraught and asked "How can we eat Charlie?" My cousin's wife responded: "Would you rather have Charlie eaten by strangers?"
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
