posted
Ummm, I was trying to come up with an example of a word whose usage had changed in the way Tom was talking about. I hope I didn't offend anyone by so doing.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: I thought it was really funny when I moved to Utah and heard people call a ruler a straight edge. It seems like calling a protractor a round thing.
Technically, a straight-edge may or may not be a ruler. For instance, I used a non-ruled straight-edge yesterday to draw lines.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: Ummm, I was trying to come up with an example of a word whose usage had changed in the way Tom was talking about. I hope I didn't offend anyone by so doing.
I am not offended. Just wanted to point out that many still find the use of the word offensive, when used casually, for example in the expression "grammar nazi." I think a lot of people may not be aware of the strong feelings some still have about the use of that word in any context except when speaking about Nazi Germany or NeoNazis.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Which, incidentally, is the serious context behind my standing joke of the Grammar Communist Party.
EDIT : My God, you people have been having a religious discussion behind my back! I'm shocked and hurt! However, it's getting late. Can we just assume I made some nasty comment somewhere, people were upset, my reputation was further smeared, and life went its usual way? I'm off to bed. Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: I thought it was really funny when I moved to Utah and heard people call a ruler a straight edge. It seems like calling a protractor a round thing.
Technically, a straight-edge may or may not be a ruler. For instance, I used a non-ruled straight-edge yesterday to draw lines.
Technically, you use the non-ruled straight-edge to guide your writing utensil to form straight lines.
Posts: 2756 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Technically, a straight-edge may or may not be a ruler. For instance, I used a non-ruled straight-edge yesterday to draw lines.
Technically, you use the non-ruled straight-edge to guide your writing utensil to form straight lines.
Since I was drawing the lines on a TabletPC, technically I was using an unruled straight-edge to guide an implement which causes pixels on the screen to change colors in pre-determined patterns.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Dagonee, our missionaries devote their time and resources to inviting people to hear about the restored gospel, to share the good news, as it were. We don't spend resources fighting against any supposed evils of other churches. We respect and admire other religions and know that they have been given much that is good and true.
We only wish to invite and welcome all people into the blessings of our faith, the fulness of the restored gospel. So it's not quite the same thing as battling against the supposed evils of this or that other religion, I don't think. Do you?
I agree there's a difference, but the difference is not related to what you pointed out in your post.
The email to Hobbes was an attempt to convert him. You seemed (to me, anyway) to be referencing that email when you wondered why people spent their energy fighting the "evils" of Mormons. You seemed to be grouping both attempts to convert Mormons in with other, much more hostile behavior (like people protesting at general conference). The fact remains - Mormons spend an enormous amount of resources attempting to convince people to conver to their beliefs.
The Mormon beliefs are founded on the premise that current Christian churches are apostate and that LDS are the only legitimate holders of the priesthood. In attempting to convert people, I assume this message is delivered in some form. No matter how polite this message is, it is accusing a vast number of people of very serious sins.
As I've said many times, I have enormous respect for Mormon missionary work. But I'm confused that a member of a faith that expends the energies of its young men to bring sheep into the fold from "apostate" churches is commenting on other churches attempting to save people from an "evil" church instead of ending world hunger.
The letter to Hobbes can easily be couched as attempting to invite him back to the authentic gospel. I tend to agree with Dana's assesment of the efficacy of such a letter. But the desired goal of the letter is parallel to the desired goal of Hobbes' upcoming efforts on his mission.
posted
I got called a documentation nazi on my way to my desk this morning. This would be from one of the programmers, who wrote a bunch of text for a web site that had to be edited and re-written. It was supposed to be both funny and slightly offensive at the same time, I think. Moron. Oh well. He gets a red pen next time.
I've never heard of the straight-edge movement. Who are you people? *twinkle*
quote:I thought it was really funny when I moved to Utah and heard people call a ruler a straight edge. It seems like calling a protractor a round thing.
This made me literally laugh out loud.
--------
quote:The Mormon beliefs are founded on the premise that current Christian churches are apostate and that LDS are the only legitimate holders of the priesthood. In attempting to convert people, I assume this message is delivered in some form. No matter how polite this message is, it is accusing a vast number of people of very serious sins.
No. Lack of information, definitely. But not having the priesthood but not knowing it is not a sin in any way. What sin would that be?
There is definitely no way to sugarcoat the discussion where you tell someone they don't have the priesthood, but there's nothing that says it is a sin to not. You can be offended, but it's better to be offended accurately.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:No. Lack of information, definitely. But not having the priesthood but not knowing it is not a sin in any way. What sin would that be?
Not a sin to you, but certainly a sin to us.
quote:There is definitely no way to sugarcoat the discussion where you tell someone they don't have the priesthood, but there's nothing that says it is a sin to not. You can be offended, but it's better to be offended accurately.
I agree accuracy is best, but I'm not offended anyway (although you might find one of the reasons I'm not offended to be a little offensive to you).
My point wasn't that it's offensive - I never said it was. My point is that a Mormon trying to convert a non-Mormon is spending his energy the same way a non-Mormon trying to convert a Mormon is (if for different end goals).
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's fine. It's also true and fine that most people will reject what the missionaries say, and possibly laugh about it later. That's normal. So is Hobbes being amused that someone tried to pull him from the church by telling him no one else cared about him.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Since I was drawing the lines on a TabletPC, technically I was using an unruled straight-edge to guide an implement which causes pixels on the screen to change colors in pre-determined patterns.
I just snorted water through my nose. Thanks, rivka. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:That's fine. It's also true and fine that most people will reject what the missionaries say, and possibly laugh about it later. That's normal. So is Hobbes being amused that someone tried to pull him from the church by telling him no one else cared about him.
Look, I don't want to harp on Hobbes. He's been very gracious. First, I'm pretty sure the letter didn't say no one else cared about him - I interpreted that as his humorous comment on the lack of attempted conversion by non-Mormons here.
But the fact is that he laughed about it, and not in private with people who believe as he does. He did it in front of people who share core beliefs very similar to the ones expressed by his friend, even if most of us do not consider Mormons to be evil.
I also get the impression you haven't followed this piece of the conversation closely. Tatiania was expressing amazement at people trying to convert Mormons when there are so many ills in the world. I was expressing amazement that a Mormon wouldn't understand the underlying motivation.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've heard the term "Straight Edge" in all three ways mentioned here .
Tom, there were a lot of high school kids about 2 years younger than me who claimed to be "SXE". They weren't violent or radical, but they did think themselves better than everyone else. They almost all stopped being straight edge around the same time. Mostly I think because of the no sex before marriage thing.
But people saying someone is "straight edge" usually just means that they don't do drugs or alcohol. The sex thing rarely is a consideration. Nor does it imply anything about their eating habits.
You shouldn't be surprised Tom, two of the things that change most are the lexicon of young people, and social movements .
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:He did it in front of people who share core beliefs very similar to the ones expressed by his friend
I don't think there is, unless it is someone's core belief that the reason Hobbes joined the church is because no one else paid attention to him. Hobbes shared a funny experience with friends who would find the idea of a lost, lonely, and deluded Hobbes with no one who cared about him as ridiculous as he did.
Hobbes said that the original post was almost a quote of the e-mail sent to him.
I am not commenting on what Tatiana has said. However, I don't think Hobbes was laughing at anyone's religious beliefs at all - ever. That's tacky, and he just wouldn't. That's not Hobbes. He was laughing at the idea that he needs saving from his own choices.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Technically, a straight-edge may or may not be a ruler. For instance, I used a non-ruled straight-edge yesterday to draw lines.
In Utah, they are one and the same. I've never heard someone talk about a straight-edge that wasn't a ruler.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dag, it didn't sound to me like the minister (?) was trying to "convert" Hobbes, but that he was, in a sense, trying to de-convert him. That is, it didn't sound like he was trying to get him to embrace any particular belief system, but rather trying to get him to reject one.
I think there is at least a little difference between trying to get someone to embrace a religion and trying to get someone to reject one. The one may involve the other, but not necessarily.
Posts: 1652 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:I don't think there is, unless it is someone's core belief that the reason Hobbes joined the church is because no one else paid attention to him.
That's not what he said. That was Hobbes's joke added on to the end.
quote:Dag, it didn't sound to me like the minister (?) was trying to "convert" Hobbes, but that he was, in a sense, trying to de-convert him.
It sounded like he wanted to get him to a Christian church. Sounds like conversion to me.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:That's not what he said. That was Hobbes's joke added on to the end.
Are you sure?
Hobbes' explanation:
quote:Anyways, he sent me a long e-mail explaining why I had allowed the Churches community and acceptance to lull me into accepting a fake, evil doctrine. And then explained quite explicitly that the Mormon Church was very much not Christian and I needed to run away from it. My first post was kind of a hodgepodge of quotes from the letter.
If there are really Hatrackers who think that, then they either haven't yet read any of the Are Mormons Christian? threads, or else they don't know Hobbes.
Is it really necessary to respect someone's belief that you are evil and an idiot?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Hobbes' explanation: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyways, he sent me a long e-mail explaining why I had allowed the Churches community and acceptance to lull me into accepting a fake, evil doctrine. And then explained quite explicitly that the Mormon Church was very much not Christian and I needed to run away from it. My first post was kind of a hodgepodge of quotes from the letter. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing in that quote says anything like "the reason Hobbes joined the church is because no one else paid attention to him." That doesn't even apply to what I said.
quote:Is it really necessary to respect someone's belief that you are evil and an idiot?
Is it really necessary to respect someone's belief that you are apostate and ill-informed?
Of course, the real question is "is it really necessary to make jokes about people who attempt to convert you to a particular religion in front of people who are or share many beliefs in common with that religion?"
This is all besides the point. I have no desire to harp on Hobbes. But I also have no desire to be told what I or others should find distasteful.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:My first post was kind of a hodgepodge of quotes from the letter.
You can be offended. That's fine. I do not believe that Hobbes has done anything wrong, though. If the post was offensive, Hobbes isn't the one to get upset with.
quote:"is it really necessary to make jokes about people who attempt to convert you to a particular religion in front of people who are or share many beliefs in common with that religion?"
Hobbes shares probably 90% of the same beliefs. We all share a great many of the same beliefs. How many beliefs in common do you need to switch from being "us" to "them"?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Kat, read the thread. I have simply tried to explain, to people who specifically asked, why someone might be upset about it.
I wasn't upset about it. I made a guess at the reason Pop was upset. Dana posted another reason.
I was attempting to give factual information. It doesn't matter in that context if you think someone should be upset by this. I was relaying why someone might be upset about it.
quote:Hobbes shares probably 90% of the same beliefs. We all share a great many of the same beliefs.
This is not a discussion I think you want to have, and certainly not in this thread. Let's just say 90% is a very high number, especially if you weight individual facts by relative importance to the respective faiths.
quote:How many beliefs in common do you need to switch from being "us" to "them"?
What does this question mean? I specifically don't consider Mormons "non-Christian." But I do consider them much farther from my beliefs than most Protestant denominations.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: Tatiania was expressing amazement at people trying to convert Mormons when there are so many ills in the world. I was expressing amazement that a Mormon wouldn't understand the underlying motivation.
Ahh, that's where our misunderstanding occurred, Dag! My amazement was about fighting evils, not attempts to convert.
The many tracts and warnings I've received are specifically attempts to rescue me from the evils of Mormonism by telling me negative things the people believe about the LDS faith. If I were Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Buddhist, Jewish, or Islamic, there would have been no tracts delivered, no comments made, it seems clear. Buildings for dozens of religions go up here all the time, for instance, but I never heard of protests for any except the LDS temple.
Most people don't do that, of course, and certainly nobody here at hatrack. I apologize if I gave the impression that they did. I certainly didn't mean to. But it is even the official and institutional attitude of some protestant (particularly fundamentalist) churches that Mormonism is an evil that needs to be fought against. And that surprises me, considering the plethora of evils one may choose to battle.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:If I were Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Buddhist, Jewish, or Islamic, there would have been no tracts delivered, no comments made, it seems clear.
Speaking as a Catholic, I can categorically deny that. I've seen targeted tracts for Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims, and Jews. I assume there are some for the others.
I've seen many people who convert to Catholicism be the targets of missionaries from other faiths. I've heard firsthand stories of parents who convert late in life try to convert their son the priest. Such were definitely accompanied by the favorite anti-Catholic digs - Mary worshipping, "papism," idolotry, anti-Christ, etc.
I've also met Catholics who have attempted to reconvert people who've left the Catholic Church, although I didn't witness the attempt.
quote:Buildings for dozens of religions go up here all the time, for instance, but I never heard of protests for any except the LDS temple.
As to protests for non-LDS religious buildings, that happens everywhere, to all faiths. As to protests at religious buildings, I've seen a few. But I've seen many more at places analogous to your general conference, which I believe is at your temple but which most others don't hold in a religious building.
quote:I apologize if I gave the impression that they did. I certainly didn't mean to.
I certainly didn't think you were accusing anyone here of that. I was interpreting the letter against the backdrop of all the converting attemtps that go on that I mentioned above.
quote:But it is even the official and institutional attitude of some protestant (particularly fundamental) churches that Mormonism is an evil that needs to be fought against.
I seem to recall that the Mormon Church gets most of its members from Protestant churches (in the U.S., I mean, not in Latin America). If one believes that Mormons are in danger of hell, then it is a very specific threat to the people in those Church's care. From an eternal view, it's pretty easy to understand why this would be considered important, even if I don't agree with it.
I don't do much missionary work, although I have spoken with friends I knew were considering leaving the Catholic Church. I consider it a duty to attempt to talk to a close friend who is considering converting to another faith and to try to answer their reasons for wanting to do so.
But I wouldn't do that here, mainly because I'm not what I consider close enough to anyone here to do so, and it's against the rules I agreed to.
quote:But I've seen many more at places analogous to your general conference, which I believe is at your temple but which most others don't hold in a religious building.
We don't, either. It's held in the Conference Center and broadcast worldwide.
posted
Thanks for the details. It's still a Church building, so protestors there are protesting a church building, whereas protestors protesting the Baptist conventions are protesting a hotel or convention hall, I believe. That's the distinction I was getting at.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Though to be fair, the Conference Center and the Tabernacle are RIGHT NEXT to the Salt Lake City Temple, and are part of the same larger complex referred to as "Temple Square".
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
True. But they are used for other functions, albeit mostly church-produced ones.
Also, there's a huge Baptist church in Dallas that's used for regional conventions sometimes. I'd bet there are similar buildings some other places, and they also get used for similar things, when available and able to accomodate attendees.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
There were plenty of protestors in Vatican City during the recent Papal election conclave (which went on in the Sistine Chapel) and you can't take 5 steps in Vatican City without walking into a church.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tom, thanks for the explanation on SXE. I've definitely learned something new today.
quote:Aren't you a year or two older than I am? And I know that I'm a year older than Tom is.
Anyway, I'm with you on never having heard straight-edge used to refer to anything other than something used to draw lines with before.
But unlike Tom, I've never heard teetotaler used to specify anything other than not drinking. Then again, in most of the circles I float about in, lack of drug use is assumed.
Rivka, I'm 34. And like you, I think it's a culture thing, because in all my circles lack of drug use is also assumed. Lack of alcohol is not assumed, in fact I do drink occasionally, as in probably 1-2 drinks per month, so to me teetotaler only applies to alcohol. I would not describe myself as one, for example. I would describe many of my friends and fellow church members as one, however.
And a straight edge is still anything, ruler or not, that I use to draw a straight line. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
When i first saw straight edge. my brain converted it to straight lace.
after reading the other explanations. I didn't realize that it had a diffrent definition than useing a straight edge to draw a straight line.
Posts: 513 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dagonee, I'm sorry that Catholics are sometimes treated that way too. So you can definitely see where I'm coming from, I guess.
I spent my growing up years as a Catholic, until about age 18, and I never got that sort of treatment during that time, thank goodness! Many attempts to save me were made, but none specifically anti-Catholic, since other protestants were equally included in the calls. They were general evangelism, and I only found them objectionable if they were pushy or coercive, as they occasionally were.
I find it surprising that churches would do any sort of "targeting" of other churches, in fact. I'm sorry to hear that Catholics experience that as well. I think it's misguided and rather ugly, and is quite different from general conversion attempts. Does the distinction not strike you as important?
In the last four years, I've certainly seen and felt a huge difference in the way people respond to my membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, compared to what they ever did when I was an atheist or when I was a Catholic in my youth.
I have the highest respect for all people's faith (or choice to reject all faiths, as the case may be). And our church does teach that respect, as well. I suppose it surprises me that other churches do not. I see a clear and unmistakeable difference in this between my church and some protestant fundamentalist churches.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Does the distinction not strike you as important?
It does, but not in the "diverting resources from feeding the hungry" kind of way. If conversion is a worthy goal, then it's worth spending resources on it.
I don't see resource allocation as an objection to the means used, just the goal. At least when the comparison is between goals, as opposed to means.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
From my time at Hatrack, (although maybe this is just me) I've noticed that respect for other people's religions is not a trait I'd put high on a list of characteristics of LDS members. Even the idea that none of these other religions - even if you have now grudgingly admitted Catholics to the list - have anyone treating them bad is terribly disrespectful.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why is it disrespectful? The only anti-Catholic sentiments I've ever seen or heard of were in a historical context - War of the Roses and Ku Klux Klan kinds of things. I suppose I wouldn't see most of it, but how is it disrespectful to be surprised that it still exists?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:I just snorted water through my nose. Thanks, rivka.
Anytime!
quote:
quote: Technically, a straight-edge may or may not be a ruler. For instance, I used a non-ruled straight-edge yesterday to draw lines.
In Utah, they are one and the same. I've never heard someone talk about a straight-edge that wasn't a ruler.
Utahans are weird. Hasn't that been established numerous times?
quote: You're really cool, Dag. I just wanted to say that.
*nodnod*
quote:Originally posted by Belle:
Rivka, I'm 34. And like you, I think it's a culture thing, because in all my circles lack of drug use is also assumed. Lack of alcohol is not assumed, in fact I do drink occasionally, as in probably 1-2 drinks per month, so to me teetotaler only applies to alcohol. I would not describe myself as one, for example. I would describe many of my friends and fellow church members as one, however.
And a straight edge is still anything, ruler or not, that I use to draw a straight line.
I'm 31. Tom is 30. And I absolutely agree with your definition of teetotaler.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:From my time at Hatrack, (although maybe this is just me) I've noticed that respect for other people's religions is not a trait I'd put high on a list of characteristics of LDS members. Even the idea that none of these other religions - even if you have now grudgingly admitted Catholics to the list - have anyone treating them bad is terribly disrespectful.
Perhaps LDS knowledge of other religions is sometimes lacking, and some Mormons can be quite proud of their beliefs, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that we're generally disrespectful.
And if someone's personal experience includes taking a lot of abuse from anti-Mormons, while never personally witnessing anyone else receiving the same treatment, you can see how easy it might be to start feeling uniquely singled out.
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: I thought it was really funny when I moved to Utah and heard people call a ruler a straight edge. It seems like calling a protractor a round thing.
Technically, a straight-edge may or may not be a ruler. For instance, I used a non-ruled straight-edge yesterday to draw lines.
Yeah, that's the way I always heard it used.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Why is it disrespectful? The only anti-Catholic sentiments I've ever seen or heard of were in a historical context - War of the Roses and Ku Klux Klan kinds of things. I suppose I wouldn't see most of it, but how is it disrespectful to be surprised that it still exists?
I dare say you haven't heard sentiments against other religions much because you are not paying attention much to what is said againts other religions, unless it offends or affects your particular faith.
There are sentiments expressed against Catholicism, Judaism, Islam and other religions currently in many places in the US, as well as complaints about buildings going up to serve those religions.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
And notice that most of the top hits for "Utahn" are from Utah news sources. I prefer to go with self-identification. Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
Hobbes, I had been having a series of bad days, and I think it exploded on you. My post came out much harsher than I intended or was necessary, and for that I also apologize.
Because I now can't remember exactly what was originally said, I won't be able to express with the clarity I'd like what precisely I found distasteful, but I think it's somewhere between (or perhaps encompassing) what Dagonee and dkw suggested. If I'd responded to you with the same graciousness you showed in your response to the professor, there needn't have been such hooplah. (I keep imagining hooplah hands to be like a cross between jazz hands, spirit fingers, and raising the roof -- are they kind of like that?)
Thanks for understanding, Hobbes. And in your honor....
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Sleep]](graemlins/sleep.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
