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Maybe the invocation of King of Men is responsible for the impression of a hooplah. We could make a new Law.
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Wow, when I posted this it didn't even occur to me that could've been offensive. I'm really sorry about that! I'm going to re-read the thread and then... well apologize more formally.
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As an explanation, I woke up this morning to an e-mail a friend from Purdue had sent me (who is a non-denominational preacher going back to school, we had a couple CS classes together). He was aware that I was going on a mission for the LDS Church, and with it coming up, I guess he wanted to make a pitch. Anyways, he sent me a long e-mail explaining why I had allowed the Churches community and acceptance to lull me into accepting a fake, evil doctrine. And then explained quite explicitly that the Mormon Church was very much not Christian and I needed to run away from it. My first post was kind of a hodgepodge of quotes from the letter.
I'm sorry that I posted it in an inflammatory way, I certainly didn't mean offense to anyone here! DKW, I absolutely don't think in the least that you ever showed a lack of concern for me, or in anyway failed being a friend to me, which as much as you can be in a forum like this. (((DKW))) I'm the sorriest that the thought even crossed your mind!
As a follow up, I did e-mail him back, and tried to explain some of his issues with the Church and then ended with this:
quote:I appreciate that you care about me, and I understand that that's why you wrote this, but I'm afraid that there's little you can inform me of that I don't already know about my Church. I went into this Church knowing quite a bit about the doctrine, as well as the doctrine of other Churches. I walked into this with eyes open. If you want to continue to explain why you think I'm wrong I wont stop you, and I'm sure I'll read it (well... for the next week until I stop read this e-mail account) but having received revelation, for myself, from the Spirit of God as to the truthfulness of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, there is little you can do to dissuade me.
He hasn't written me back yet (not surprising, it just happened). And... umm... I'm sorry again.
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I can't believe that with the crap against religion spewed on this board, Hobbes is the one getting chastised.
Let me tell you about my middle brother. He's the one we call the changeling. One reason is that he doesn't look like any of the rest of us. (We have two "molds" -- fair, blond and blue-eyed (one brother and my sister) and dark, brunet and hazel-eyed (my youngest brother and me). Middle brother has very dark hair, almost black, and extremely pale blue eyes and pale skin.)
The other reason is that from a very early age (before age 10), he behaved in a way that was incredibly mature and good. And by "good" I mean practically angelic. (Now in his mid-twenties, he is a kind and wonderful man that I am proud just to be related to.)
When he did something wrong, he got in WAY more trouble that any of the rest of us would have. (This is something my parents now feel bad about.) Not fair at all -- but a very human reaction.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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S'okey Hobbes. I knew you meant it to be funny. I wouldn't have posted at all, if people didn't seem so confused as to what anyone could possibly object to.
Am I correct that you weren't raised in any church? I ask because it seems particularly pointless to me to point out the differences between LDS and mainline Christianity as a reason to "deconvert" someone who was never a mainline Christian. I mean, it might make a difference to someone who had always been some sort of Christian and joined the LDS without fully examining the differences because they assumed it was pretty much the same, but if you weren't a "traditional" Christian before you became LDS, why would you care whether or not you are one now?
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Yeah, if I were going to try to deconvert Hobbes, I'd use an entirely different line of argument.
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Dagonee, our missionaries devote their time and resources to inviting people to hear about the restored gospel, to share the good news, as it were. We don't spend resources fighting against any supposed evils of other churches. We respect and admire other religions and know that they have been given much that is good and true.
We only wish to invite and welcome all people into the blessings of our faith, the fulness of the restored gospel. So it's not quite the same thing as battling against the supposed evils of this or that other religion, I don't think. Do you?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Anne Kate, do you actually know any real straight-edge kids? Like, actual members of the movement?
A good number of my friends were straight-edgers in the early nineties. And while the straight-edge movement and the Mormons share a position on the use of mind-altering substances, it's safe to say that this is pretty much where the similarities end.
And that's not entirely a slam on Mormons, mind you. There are disturbing neo-fascist elements of the straight-edge movement that I don't think Mormons would want to share. We're talking about a group that has not only advocated but committed firebombings of fast food restaurants.
Now, don't get me wrong: I could see a lot of Mormons signing up for SXE, especially when you consider how popular the cult of violence is among young Mormon men (remember the Fight Club thing). But SXE is at heart a fascist, militant, post-punk, and mainly vegan gang designed to literally combat other gangs.
Again, I could see SXE being really popular with some elements of Salt Lake society. But I don't think there's otherwise a lot of overlap.
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Tom, I use the word in its sense defined above, and not meaning a member of the musical movement that coined the word. I thought that would be really clear.
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Ah. See, I use the word "tee-total" when that's all I mean to say. To me, at least, calling someone SXE just because they're clean and sober is like calling someone a Republican because they're anti-abortion.
Maybe it's just because I lived on the fringes of the movement for so long, but it's weird to hear the term applied as just a random slang for clean living. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I have heard the word used in this sense far more than references to the musical movement, though I was aware of the word's origins. It's really a good word for it, I think, and we need one and there's not one. To me tee-total means refraining from using alcohol only.
Any undertones of violence, which I never caught, are certainly unfortunate.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Yeah, around here straight-edge means "don't drink or do drugs" so I think it's grown in its definition.
edit to add: Strider says it's understood among his peers (fraternity folk) and age group that straight-edge means you don't drink or do any drugs. Tee-totaler (those who'd recognize the word -- i think it's more archaic among the young folk) definitely refers to only alcohol.
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How odd. It's like learning that the word "Nazi" has come to mean "someone who likes wearing armbands."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I wonder when this happened. I am apparently very old.
Can anyone else think of an organizational membership that's been turned into a depoliticized term in this fashion? I just find this very, very strange. What other gang memberships are now used to describe lifestyles?
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I've never heard the term straight edge used for anything besides a ruler. I must be even older than Tom. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I don't know about gang memberships, but I think it's fairly common in English that a term that was once specific can come to be used in a more general sense. I'm trying to think of a good example but failing. Some of our language nazis should help me out.... Bingo!
<laughs> A nazi can now mean anyone who is zealous or strict about their given subject. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Belle, the straight-edge phenomenon -- abbreviated SXE -- was a fairly successful movement that combined liberal politics with clean living requirements. It appealed to hardcore punks and skateboarders (and was promoted by many of their favorite bands), had its own tattoos, and advocated a vegan, drug-free lifestyle coupled with a form of in-your-face, extremist sloganeering. And, in many cities around the country, it helped bring the gentle political discussions for which the mosh pit became famous to skate parks everywhere.
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I would never be accepted in such a movement, as I avoid violence and drink milk. <milk-moustached peace-sign smilie>
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I'm with Tom on the definition here, although I knew it's been being used in a more, um, mellow, sense recently. Was the movement maybe more predominant in the Upper MidWest, that we're the two that have that as our primary definition?
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It might just be that people who aren't familiar with the punk scene have heard the term in a "no thanks, I'm straight-edge" sense and naturally assumed that this was all it meant.
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I'm not really all that familiar with the punk scene myself, though. I just liked to dance at goth clubs. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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I've heard the term used in the full violent neo-fascist sense. But I've often heard it used in the generic clean, straight-arrow sense. Sort of like people often use the term "nazi" to refer to domineering and dictatorial people and grammar lovers.
But I've only ever heard "teetotaler" used in the sense of someone who abstains from alcohol. Nothing more.
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"But I've often heard it used in the generic clean, straight-arrow sense."
That's what I find funny. Because while SXE is definitely "clean," "straight-arrow" is not a word I would apply to most of its members.
When I hear "Mormons are straight-edge," I get this image of a bunch of tall, skinny boys with freckles and extremely dull haircuts, their white shirts and thin black ties barely covering their tribal tattoos and multiple piercings while they sweatily punch each other in the face and shout along with a Black Flag cover band. And trying to find garments that flare at the ankle, ideally to at least a 50" diameter.
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quote:Let me tell you about my middle brother. He's the one we call the changeling. One reason is that he doesn't look like any of the rest of us. (We have two "molds" -- fair, blond and blue-eyed (one brother and my sister) and dark, brunet and hazel-eyed (my youngest brother and me). Middle brother has very dark hair, almost black, and extremely pale blue eyes and pale skin.)
The other reason is that from a very early age (before age 10), he behaved in a way that was incredibly mature and good. And by "good" I mean practically angelic. (Now in his mid-twenties, he is a kind and wonderful man that I am proud just to be related to.)
Dana, this absolutely freaked me out. I have written a short story about a young woman who looks nothing like her family (they're blond or brown haired and she has blue eyes and jet black hair; they're short, she's very tall) and she finds out she was born with fairy blood.
When you said he was a changeling, well, I had a twilight-zone moment.
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: I've never heard the term straight edge used for anything besides a ruler. I must be even older than Tom.
Aren't you a year or two older than I am? And I know that I'm a year older than Tom is.
Anyway, I'm with you on never having heard straight-edge used to refer to anything other than something used to draw lines with before.
But unlike Tom, I've never heard teetotaler used to specify anything other than not drinking. Then again, in most of the circles I float about in, lack of drug use is assumed.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Hmm in california I remember Black Flag being big but I don't remember the term "straight edge" being in use. I'll ask a couple of my CA cultural consultants who would know far more about that kind of thing, since they didn't grow up in a cave.
quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: Hehehe. Yes, yes, I suppose it is. I just read brown hair hazel eyes, blond hair blue eyes and pictured you and ElJay.
But I'm not going to edit the post since then yours will look weird.
But you missed the part of there being three brothers, hmm?
I think we're even (re: "nephy") now. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: When I hear "Mormons are straight-edge," I get this image of a bunch of tall, skinny boys with freckles and extremely dull haircuts, their white shirts and thin black ties barely covering their tribal tattoos and multiple piercings while they sweatily punch each other in the face and shout along with a Black Flag cover band. And trying to find garments that flare at the ankle, ideally to at least a 50" diameter.
I think that mormons are a brand of rulers.
Posts: 2756 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I thought it was really funny when I moved to Utah and heard people call a ruler a straight edge. It seems like calling a protractor a round thing.
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