It is often very difficult to see beyond personal experience to admit when one is over-generalizing to a group or population.
It's also a bit difficult to see beyond the fact of the crimes to what might be behind it.
Close to 100% of white collar crime by CEOs in this country is by white males. Employees I know who worked for Enron have their own set of experiences and know what happens when some greedy bastards can wipe out the personal savings and pensions of 1000's of workers in one fell swoop.
Hey...it's all a matter of background and opportunity. Something in Ken Lay's upbringing made him see his crimes as justifiable and worth the risk.
The guy who stole your GTO had a background and upbringing too.
But, ultimately, the ones who committed the crimes are the ones who are responsible. Not their ethnicity or skin color.
quote:Wish I could get over it.
I wish you more than luck. I wish you find whatever you need in order to get over it.
I'm certain that you can, if you really want to, and really try.
I'll be rooting for your success in this endeavor.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Well while we're pursuing this whimsical war-mongering fantasy, I'm curious: what happens if Mexico refuses? Do we "counter"-invade? Really, your use of the word invasion is utterly inappropriate, considering the utility America obtains by such newcomers. Yes, yes, impoverished, desperate, uneducated, (immigrants) with no legal marketable skills pose a threat...but they're also awfully good at working in Wal-Mart and picking citrus.
I'm deliberately using inflammatory language here in the hopes that you'll understand that this "invasion" you speak of is benefitting us as well as hurting us. It's a strange invasion that pours money into the pockets of the invaded, don't you think?
But back to my question...suppose Mexico balks? We invade. Naturally enough we quickly win (after massive military problems involving moving lots of troops and recruiting lots of troops, as well as thinning our operations elsewhere). Umm...and then what? The United States of America is now the ruler by right of conquest of the nation formerly known as Mexico.
I'll just bet the Mexicans will of course sleep against a sun-drenced wall with their sombreros over their faces while this happens, and during the following occupation, too.
Ok. 1. Your racist sterotyping is not amusing, not appropriate, and simply reflects your own amazing degree of ignorance and offensiveness and not my own. You also apparently lack the most basic language skills that would allow you to understand that I am not, have not, and will not call for barring legal immigration -- and in fact have called for legal immigration and work programs to be increased. Your pathetic attempt to smear me with YOUR racist and bigotted imagery is both clumsy and ineffective.
2. When 500,000 people crosse an internationally recognized border without permission, what word OTHER than 'invasion' would apply?
3. Before going to war, there are a very large number of alternative actions that can be taken first. Among which could be the closing of the border, ending aid, considering any and/or all treaties with Mexico void, as well as other diplomatic or economic pressures. However, if a nation is actively subverting our laws and our borders, that is a classic definition of an act of war.
4. How, exactly, is the complete collapse of the native construction industry (as described above) a 'benefit' to any of us? I get to pay welfare for those native people who can't find work. I get to pay increased health costs because illegals don't get medical coverage, which means the rest of us pay for their medical care. I get to pay more taxes because the illegals don't have tax withheld on their earnings. I get to pay higher car insurance rates while stolen cars from my neighborhood mysteriously find their way to Equador and Costa Rica. Any savings that companies may enjoy go into corporate coffers for multi-million dollar executive bonuses at the end of the year. I don't see a dime of it. You don't either. And, furthermore, the fact of the matter is that we aren't talking about fruit pickers, we are talking about people who work at Tyson's, in landscaping positions around the country, in construction around the country, in body shops, in restraunts, in bars, in any unskilled position where a business owner may want to get work for $3 an hour instead of the $9 (minimum) he'd have to pay for a native.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
My friends at a factory in Ireland are alarmed by the influx of Eastern Europeans into their country since the creation of the EU. The Eastern Europeans can't seem to learn English fast enough, and they're grabbing up all the low-paying jobs. Sounds familiar.
But maybe we're all going to have to dip down to what we consider 3rd-world status in order to give these other people a boost. Maybe some of us will lose our jobs or pay what we consider to be an unfair proportion of the taxes.
What will life be like for all of us three or four generations from now?
Well, three or four generations ago there was an influx of poor Irish into the US. Maybe somebody lost his job to an Irishman who was willing to work for less. Maybe some of our grandparents subsidized the relief those immigrants received with tax dollars.
Do we think of Irish-Americans today as being poor or job-stealers? Nope. We hardly think of them as being anything but Americans.
Three or four generations from now maybe we'll all be North Americans and EU citizens. Maybe the wage gap will have closed between people of various origins. Maybe we'll be ready to absorb the next influx of impoverished people. Wouldn't it be nice?
quote:Originally posted by skillery: Three or four generations fron now maybe we'll all be North Americans and EU citizens. Maybe the wage gap will have closed between people of various origins. Maybe we'll be ready to absorb the next influx of impoverished people. Wouldn't it be nice?
No. I am not entranced with your little 'global community' scenario. I don't think that completely improbable pie in the sky fantasy is all that great, and certainly isn't worth even the slightest sacrifice on my part.
The big difference between your 'once upon a time' and now is that when the Irish came, someone who lost their job could move West and start over. That was also a time when the factories and railroads had an insatiable need for more workers. Where is there to go now for unskilled labor? Detroit isn't hiring. There's no money in farming unless you are either Acher, Daniel, or Midlands. Alaska, maybe has an opportunity or two, and that's about it.
And maybe you think that watching your own children starving to death is peachy keen just so long as it's 'just a dip' into third world status, but I am not. I have no interest in living in a third world country, especially since the country my ancestors have left me is (due to their efforts) much better than that. If you are so damned keen on living that way, feel free to find a third-world country and move there. Do not try to force it on me.
I also find the fact that you are more sympathetic to the foreign poor than our domestic poor.
Should I take a note from others in this thread and falsly ascribe a racist motivation to that misplaced sympathy? No, I shouldn't, as personally satisfying to my indignation as that may be, it would be false (I'm fairly sure) and would simply demonstrate my own ignorance, wouldn't it? But maybe by bringing this up, maybe you can think about the impact this has on the native poor. While, keep in mind, the business owners profit. That should get your little heart all aflutter about the fundamental unfairness here.
I'm sure the Caananites considered the Exodus an invasion. It all depends on if you're the one coming or getting overrun, doesn't it?
Posts: 218 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Sure we are. Well, maybe not Detroit specifically, but the suburban area is actually doing fairly well. Most of the plant closings that Ford and GM will suffer probably won't be in the Detroit area, they will be in southern factories. Sorry Atlanta.
Superbowl traffic is keeping the area humming for the moment, and Oakland county is expecting a job boom in the next few years thanks to our WIFI initiative.
Even if we weren't though, all the jobs still require some sort of training. The auto industry is only getting more technically advanced, especially line work. It's not the sort of thing an unskilled worker could jump into like they could 80 years ago. Half my family works or has worked for Ford in the past. Most of them are white collar workers who are currently holding their breath waiting to hear if they're going to lose their jobs, but I hear a LOT of details about the biz at holidays. Assembly lines are gearing up and retooling to become a lot more efficient. The idea is centered around the drive to bring down costs, and that means at the manufacturing level as much as it means at the level of the employees.
Even if Detroit was hiring 10,000 new line workers, it's highly unlikely that unskilled immigrant labor would make it into the business successfully. Many of the suburbs are NOT cheap to live in, no matter where you live you'll have travel expenses to get to work, and it requires a lot of on the job training to be a line worker. You need to be able to speak English, and then there's the UAW to worry about.
Oh to be back in the good old days.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sure we are. Well, maybe not Detroit specifically, but the suburban area is actually doing fairly well. Most of the plant closings that Ford and GM will suffer probably won't be in the Detroit area, they will be in southern factories. Sorry Atlanta.
Your experiences all share one thing in common, and it's not minorities. It's racists. In every situation you've described, with the exception of your prison example, you were describing other racists.
As a solution to this problem, you've decided to emulate the people who disregarded, wronged, or humiliated you. You have the wherewithal to be both tougher and smarter than that.
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WntrMute,
I'll have to respond to you later. Work beckons. I can't help but say this, though: it's amusing to be labeled a racist by someone who calls Mexican illegals an invasion, and thinks a military response is appropriate.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Hee Hee I thought of that one liner instantly but I have always felt it was ironic that God ordered the first Genocide be carried out by the Isrealites...
Have no fear Kwea, you will never be me, what it took to make me would destroy you.
I believe work Visa's and strict legal immigration that is expanded a bit are a good comprimise, it addresses the Social Security issue, keeps the wages from spiking too high and gives positive control, like legalizing drugs and taxing them to pay rehab costs it is a ruthless solution that must also involve ruthless enforcement.
We will still have to control the border much better and making smuggling or being here illegally a Felony and then deporting the illegals to Mexican prisons that are treaty bound to enforce the new laws would be a nice touch, you would have to be real desperate to risk a Mexican prison...
We relived the Texas National Guard when we took over our new AO so they are home with lots of experience and nothing to do....
posted
You know, some people here on the tightening of borders side of the fence, moan about how we are paying to support/subsidize a dysfuntional society by allowing illegal immigration. However, mining and guarding the border is exactly the same thing. We are paying, in mines and patrols, for their dysfunctional society.
To me, it seems, loosening restrictions over time, smartly, leads to fewer dead bodies than the alternative. That alone guides me to look for ways to loosen restrictions.
Belle, what do you think about registering all who would be illegals, but dropping the minimum wage somewhat? There will be some definite short-term pain to American citizens, but I don't know that the long-term could enrich both sides.
What I would like is more stringent penalties on companies that operate outside the law - what happens is an unscrupulous company doesn't carry insurance, the job goes bad, someone is hurt, and the homeowner or general sues, so insurance rates go up for everyone because it's seen as such a high-risk industry. And, companies that do carry insurance but aren't careful about who they hire have people who wind up making tons of workman's comp claims and workman's comp goes up for everyone. When we shut down our business our liability insurance premium had tripled in the last three months and we never had a claim. They raised it because we were in a "high risk industry."
Problem is, nobody wants to pay $500,000 for a home that used to cost $175,000 to build. So, contractors have to find ways to keep their in business and they can do it by either dropping insurance (which I know a lot of our competitors did) or by paying less wages and hiring people who will work for less. Either way, things are going to get worse becuase the overall quality is going down, housing may be cheap around here but the quality, it's scary. For example, we know someone who bought a house that had pipes in it that weren't rated for hot water. Wes told them they would eventually have to replace all the hot water piping. They laughed it off, saying no, it was new construction, the pipes wouldn't burst, they were put in by a great contractor, etc. Well, three years later....not only did they wind up replacing the pipes but also paying for extensive water damage.
That kind of scenario is all too common. And don't rely on inspectors to keep you safe - in one city we used to work in none of the plumbing inspectors were plumbers. They had never worked as one, they had no experience whatsoever except a two semester junior college course in building sciences. Someone like that wouldn't know a non-rated pipe from a rated one. And the inspectors that aren't incompetent are on the take. It's a sad, sad situation.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
The only way to actually stop this kind of "gravitational shift" is to actually end up with a more overall balanced system.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I can't help but say this, though: it's amusing to be labeled a racist by someone who calls Mexican illegals an invasion, and thinks a military response is appropriate.
I think that it is arrogant beyond all belief for someone to assume that no-one can be allowed to ever have an opinion contrary to yours without that person being stupid, racist, and/or evil.
Contrary to what you apparently believe, it is easily possible for someone to disagree with your most basic assumptions without being scum.
And you, once again, demonstrate that your arrogance is without ANY justification, since you are unable to comprehend even the most simple statements -- such as when I said, in simple English, that calling you a racist would be false.
Lose this attitude of innate superiority. It is not merited. It blinds you and weakens you.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: WntrMute, I don't believe you have read Skillery's posts carefully enough. You're attacking the wrong person.
I'm not attacking Skillery, I'm commenting on that one post. A bit more bluntly than if it had been after a good night's sleep, but there it is.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I can certainly understand your feelings of being "tapped out" and wanting to defend what you have. I feel that way, too. But bear in mind some of these things:
quote: Of the world’s 6 billion people, more than 1.2 billion live on less than $1 a day. Two billion more people are only marginally better off. About 60 percent of the people living on less than $1 a day live in South Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa.
quote: The world's richest 225 people have combined assets equal to the combined annual income of the world's 2.5 billion poorest people.
quote: Half the world — nearly three billion people — live on less than two dollars a day.
The GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of the poorest 48 nations (i.e. a quarter of the world’s countries) is less than the wealth of the world’s three richest people combined.
Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.
Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn't happen.
“According to UNICEF, 30,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death.”
That is about 210,000 children each week, or just under 11 million children under five years of age, each year.
quote:And maybe you think that watching your own children starving to death is peachy keen just so long as it's 'just a dip' into third world status, but I am not. I have no interest in living in a third world country, especially since the country my ancestors have left me is (due to their efforts) much better than that. If you are so damned keen on living that way, feel free to find a third-world country and move there. Do not try to force it on me.
Can't you imagine that fathers in third world countries are willing to do whatever they can to keep from watching their children actually starving to death? Including being separated from them and running some pretty awful risks to get here.
A wise person once said that a just world is one that you would design if you didn't know who your parents would be. That you and I were lucky enough to be born here is an accident of birth. We have the lifestyle that we do, not because we are better or more deserving, but because we are lucky. And our ancestors faced similar trials to get here and faced similar anger from thse who were already here. So while I do sympathize with your frustration and your fear, don't talk about it being fair.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
hi,I'm a new user,i was reading this thread and i wanted to say something,i'm not happy with illegal inmigrants in this country, not so long ago i was one,i hated it,now everything is ok thanks to my wonderful husband. I don't agree with them not being able to have driver's license,that's ridiculous,because that's not gonna stop,people are still gonna drive to go to work,shopping...ect and is dangerous to everyone. They main reason i'm not happy with illegal immigrants they say they come here to fulfill the " American dream", and i'm not saying everybody but most of them the american dream means,to come here get a fake name have lots of kids and get food from W.I.C,and never get anywhere. I think we should build more walls in the frontier,hire more guards,and try to stop illegal immigration,and second after that's done we should give the illegal people the chance to become legal within a year or so,if they decide not to do it,they have to get out. I know that's easy to say but hard to do,i just hope someday we can have privileges like free medical care without anybody abusing the system. Well,that's just my opinion,I hope not to make people mad.. Posts: 10 | Registered: Jan 2006
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First of all welcome. I don't think you'll make people mad, but you might want to think about other illegal immigrants wanting to come here for the reasons you did. Should we have made it harder for you to get here?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I have to echo kmb. That's a curious position from someone who admits to recently having been an illegal immigrant.
How do you suggest weeding out the people who want to be contributory Americans from the people who just want to suck the system dry for benefits?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
First of all thanks for answering. I don't have an answer for what you call "weeding out" people who overuse the system,but i know some people who have everything a house,car all you need to be well off in your life,and still use the goverments funds. KMB i think about other illegal immigrants,they way they risks their lives, a lot of them die,and they get here to get bombed by all the anti-immigrants laws,yes they might have more money to feed their families,but is it worth it,risking being caught by an immigration officer,be sent to your country and lose all you've gained?. I came to this country legally i overstayed my visa,i learned english in 3 months ,graduated from high school, i took a Cna course but when i tried to get to a University,i found out i could not because of my legal status i was gonna pack my things and go back to my country,the only reason i didn't it was my then boyfriend,this country has become my country and i love it. I'm only saying that Illegal immigrants hurt the system and themselves,i just wish there was an easy solutions to help them because they deserve to be treated with respect and all the benefits of this wonderful land we live.
Posts: 10 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote: KMB i think about other illegal immigrants,they way they risks their lives, a lot of them die,and they get here to get bombed by all the anti-immigrants laws,yes they might have more money to feed their families,but is it worth it,risking being caught by an immigration officer,be sent to your country and lose all you've gained?.
I think they must be pretty desperate and that we should look for more compassionate ways to address that desperation. Rather than land mines, for example. And I also think we need to at least glance at the ways that we contribute to the conditions that cause such despair.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
That's another story the reason they come here,if there's someone to blame it will be their countries,most of the illegal immigrants are form Mexico,but you listen to the statements of President Fox, and he really makes me wonder if he's able to run a country. So the only people i would blame is their corrupt goverment people. For my part i've never done nothing against illegal immigrants and never will,if i do it will be to help them.
Posts: 10 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Your racist sterotyping is not amusing, not appropriate, and simply reflects your own amazing degree of ignorance and offensiveness and not my own.
It was not intended to be amusing, and it was entirely appropriate. People like yourself decry illegal immigration for all of the dangers and drawbacks it poses, focusing the spotlight on precisely the negative racial stereotypes of dangerous and/or resource-sucking illegal immigrants, ignoring the other side of the coin: cheap, abundant labor which in part fuels our economy and by which we all benefit and almost entirely never question nor reject.
Shop at Wal-Mart, WntrMute? Buy orange juice? Or do you have your lawn maintained? Possibly you've had a building put up quickly and cheaply. It's a guarantee that you've partaken of at least one of these services before, but I doubt you were bemoaning this "invasion" then.
Opposition to illegal immigration that focuses on the negative and ignores the positive while benefiting from that positive is hypocritical and smacks of racism, since there are very few white illegal immigrants who work cheaply in the USA. My language skills are fine, thank you very much.
I didn't even mention your "plan" for increasing legal immigration, I was talking about your "plan" for invading if Mexico stopped. I said then and say now that such an idea is stupid, short-sighted, jingoistic, and hypocritical.
quote:When 500,000 people crosse an internationally recognized border without permission, what word OTHER than 'invasion' would apply?
If we're going to talk real-world impact here-what actually happens, mind you-then I'd use two words: Crap! and cha-ching! Actually that's three words, but I think you get the drift. Illegal immigration is a mixed bag. It's an "invasion" that both drains and pours resources into our national coffers.
quote:3. Before going to war, there are a very large number of alternative actions that can be taken first. Among which could be the closing of the border, ending aid, considering any and/or all treaties with Mexico void, as well as other diplomatic or economic pressures. However, if a nation is actively subverting our laws and our borders, that is a classic definition of an act of war.
The alternative actions you describe carry drastic repurcussions of their own. Closing the border would harm our economy. Actually policing this border...well, who's going to do it? The Minutemen? To say nothing of serious diplomatic and economic repurcussions between us and the rest of the world. We have friends and allies that would not look kindly on such a hostile act, whether or not you view it as "defensive"-gotta defend ourselves from all that cheap labor, after all.
I'm definitely not one to list diplomatic ramifications as a primary focus for things like this, but it needs to be considered.
quote:How, exactly, is the complete collapse of the native construction industry (as described above) a 'benefit' to any of us? I get to pay welfare for those native people who can't find work. I get to pay increased health costs because illegals don't get medical coverage, which means the rest of us pay for their medical care. I get to pay more taxes because the illegals don't have tax withheld on their earnings. I get to pay higher car insurance rates while stolen cars from my neighborhood mysteriously find their way to Equador and Costa Rica.
The native construction industry has not "collapsed". The native unskilled (in terms of college, certification, bonded insured etc. etc.) construction industry has been drastically altered, yes. And what's the result? Cheaper housing. Cheaper buildings. Faster construction.
The wages illegals earn are often so low that even if they were legal, they'd get it back in refunds. Their healthcare? They're the ones cleaning the hospital you visit at three in the morning. They're the ones doing its laundry.
quote:Any savings that companies may enjoy go into corporate coffers for multi-million dollar executive bonuses at the end of the year. I don't see a dime of it. You don't either. And, furthermore, the fact of the matter is that we aren't talking about fruit pickers, we are talking about people who work at Tyson's, in landscaping positions around the country, in construction around the country, in body shops, in restraunts, in bars, in any unskilled position where a business owner may want to get work for $3 an hour instead of the $9 (minimum) he'd have to pay for a native.
Your understanding of basic economics is about as dim as your understanding of what sort of things are involved in declaring a war on a bordering nation. Don't see a dime of it? If everyone has cheaper labor, prices drop in a capitalist system. Even in a system of "restrained" capitalism such as ours.
Those business owners that are paying 1/3 wages? People do business with them. Those people save money. How could you possibly miss this fundamental fact?
quote:I'm sure the Caananites considered the Exodus an invasion. It all depends on if you're the one coming or getting overrun, doesn't it?
Yes, but what's that word describing the status of the Caananites after the Exodus? Dead, if I'm not mistaken.
quote:And maybe you think that watching your own children starving to death is peachy keen just so long as it's 'just a dip' into third world status, but I am not. I have no interest in living in a third world country, especially since the country my ancestors have left me is (due to their efforts) much better than that. If you are so damned keen on living that way, feel free to find a third-world country and move there. Do not try to force it on me.
While there are starving people in the USA, you are definitely not one of them. It's easy to tell, because you're whiling away your time on an Internet forum instead of starving. So please, don't get all hysterical and act like you're a martyr. You're not. You had nothing to do with the work of your ancestors, and guess what? Those ancestors...lots and lots of immigrants. Legal and illegal. Hell, some of them were even slaves. And in this "long run" you're whining about? It's turned out OK.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:The native construction industry has not "collapsed". The native unskilled (in terms of college, certification, bonded insured etc. etc.) construction industry has been drastically altered, yes. And what's the result? Cheaper housing. Cheaper buildings. Faster construction.
No. No. And No.
The result is not a benefit for the consumer - it's not a win-win for us. The result is poorer housing, and rising costs to everyone where insurance is concerned. If the guy hiring illegals and not maintaining workman's comp insurance has people injured while working on your house - YOU will pay. You will be sued. Or your insurance will have to cover it and you will still pay in higher premiums.
The drastic altering of the native construction industry, as you called it, is not a positive for the consumer.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Alright, I'll grant that. If you go to a shady corner-cutting contracter who subs out to similar fellows and scrimps on insurance...you're gonna get screwed in some form or another.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I once considered writing a fiction story about an American Holocaust. In it death camps were created somewhere in the American desert, where truck loads of illegal aliens went to disappear.
I stopped the story because I thought it was too unbelievable.
Yet between the "Minutemen" and "Landmines on the border" and "Invade Mexico" sentiments being bandied about, I wonder how far fetched the scenario really is.
1) Government outsources Illegal Alien Deportment. 2) A well financed group of radicals wins the bid. 3) There idea, if a few illegals start vanishing the cost of getting an American job will be to high.
Its a horrid idea, but these self-proclaimed patriots are willing to do it to protect their country from invasion, to protect their jobs and the jobs of their families, to protect their heritage, religion, and image from all the evils that the wave of illegal immigration threatens.
So they set up camps to disappear and dispose of illegals that are caught. Not all of them, but a few, one truck load in 10, or 5, or 3...and that few grow and grow.
Yeah, it is now more plausible than I first thought. Maybe the story should be written.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
The answer to the current world problems is not in our having less or redistributing our wealth outward. All that would do is leave everyone with nothing. Only great wealth focused on long term goals will lead the world out of its crisis. It is our moral responsibility to maintain and increase out reach and wealth and secondly to direct it into the vast untapped resources and power of space in the long run and remote areas of the Earth in the short term. It is only this investment that can drag the rest of the world out of hock.
A thousand ordinary minds are not equal to one genius, that he needs them to do the work of pushing thought forward is true, but no amount of hauling water or chopping wood equals the quantum theory of gravity. In the same way no amount of blankets for the homeless equals a Space Station.
Mexico has a low enough population and resources enough to be a good place, its failures are moral and are not our responsibility.
posted
Dan, I would think that there are enough death camps happening right now in the world that should be written about rather than making up one that would never happen here in America.
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:The answer to the current world problems is not in our having less or redistributing our wealth outward.
It shows great foresight on your part, putting this thought out there before anyone actually makes the point you're rebutting. That way, when they do, well you've already rebutted it!
quote:All that would do is leave everyone with nothing.
Well actually it'd leave everyone with a very little. Not nothing. See, I'm showing foresight too! We need someone to come here and make the point you're addressing, and then we can insert your rebuttal, and then we can insert my response to that rebuttal!
quote:Only great wealth focused on long term goals will lead the world out of its crisis.
Whose wealth? What goals? Who does the distribution? Anyway, it's stupid to think there is only one solution to a problem like you're describing.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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