quote:Simmons released the findings as he prepares to introduce legislation that would make driving without a license an offense punishable by incarceration in Maryland. In the District and Virginia, driving without a license can land a motorist in jail.
Simmons said the legislation does not target any group. But an advocate for the rights of illegal immigrants said the legislation, if passed, would harm them.
The question about licensing (versus punishment) is raised later in the article. The proposed new legislation would give out jail time for driving without a license.
Posts: 300 | Registered: Dec 2002
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I absolutely agree that unlicensed drivers need to be targeted and gotten off the road. I don't know if I necessarily agree with jail time as an appropriate punishment; I would hope they're using that as a "three strikes" penalty or something further down the line.
As for undocumented immigrants - it seems like this is becoming a bigger problem all the time. I don't understand why it's such a big deal for them to not become documented and legally present, but since I have no first-hand exposure, I've never bothered to look up any information about it either.
I don't know what "rights" these advocates think that their clients should have when they're in the country illegally. Driving isn't a "right" for American citizens, so why should it be for an undocumented immigrant?
edit to add: ISTR that when I applied for my drivers license, I was required to provide my birth certificate and a valid Social Security card along with proof of residency. Can you get a valid SSN if you're not a citizen or authorized resident?
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Goody, it depends on the state, IIRC. Used to be possible in CA, but is no longer.
I think our current immigration laws are unrealistic. Illegal immigrants are a fact of life in SoCal, and I would MUCH rather have them driving with a legal license (and all that implies) than have them driving without.
And expecting them to use public transportation . . . well, maybe when said transportation actually goes everywhere they need to work, on a regular and consistent basis . . .
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posted
It isn't really a matter of "expecting" them to ride buses....it is a matter of them being here illegally, so they don't have a "right" to expect any sort of transportation to anywhere.
Not that I agree with that completely, just clarifying. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Ah. So they should stay in their home country where they cannot find a job? Let their kids starve?
Illegal aliens work -- work HARD, in most cases. They contribute to our economy quite a bit. So I think they have quite a few rights.
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I think they should be allowed in the country, but if they want any of the privledges that come with being a citizen (ie a drivers license) they should become a citizen. Just make becoming a citizen easier, I guess. I'm sure that's a lot easier said than done.
I think placing unlicensed drivers in jail is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard of - it's not like our jails around here aren't overcrowded with drug dealers / users. I mean, if they keep doing it, I suppose you have to do something, but incarceration isn't the answer for everything.
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Well, students and legal residents are here legally - I worded that stupidly, and apologize - people who are here legally should of course have access to those privledges
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So illegal aliens shouldn't be licensed, but also should not be jailed? What sort of enforcement should there be, then?
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I don't think we should do anything to further harm illegal immigrants (who have enough problems already) until we clean up our asylum process and up our immigration quotas.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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fines! I like fines! I don't have the answers, but I'm saying jail time isn't a good answer to relatively small offences. I'm not coming down against illegal aliens, I'm actually trying to say that it should be easier for them to become legal. I'm not faulting people for trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.
Of course, my views are going to be colored by my neck of the woods, which is in general anti-immigration. Don't believe in those views myself, but I'm sure it influences me a little.
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Fines are going to be impossible to enforce. Illegal immigrants often have changeable addresses and no other contact information.
And kq, I entirely agree with you. My point is that even if one did not, taking away licenses doesn't help the situation at all. And enforcement is all-but-impossible.
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quote: I'm not coming down against illegal aliens, I'm actually trying to say that it should be easier for them to become legal. I'm not faulting people for trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.
Of course, my views are going to be colored by my neck of the woods, which is in general anti-immigration. Don't believe in those views myself, but I'm sure it influences me a little.
Well, maybe you should hang out with more illegal, and legal, immigrants. When you've met enough people who came here, legally or not, to escape disease, horrible living conditions, poverty, and social injustice at home, giving up everything they knew for the hope of a better life for their children at any cost to themselves, it colors your views a bit, too.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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kq, I was saying I liked people being able to immigrate! I think it's a dang good thing, and recognize MY ancestors (well, 3/4 of them) immigrated from somewhere. And I do know some immigrants (around here, most of them work in restaurants). One lives across from my parents. I went to a college that had a large % of foreign nationals (most of them stayed in the states). My actual point should be that it should be EASIER for people to do it legally.
Rivka, I know fines are impossible. #1, you have to find them, and #2, it's hard to get blood from a turnip.
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I know, smitty. I'm just saying that if you want to change the prejudices you're colored by, it's not too hard to do.
And I agree with you-- it SHOULD be easier. But it's not, and in the current climate, it's not going to be for a long time. So what do we do in the mean time?
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Skillery - My mom and dad's neighbors didn't know it was illgal to dump raw sewage into the creek... oh, and by the way, the only place THOSE neighbors immigrated from was Kentucky. It's not really valid to say illegals don't know/care about laws because I know plenty of citizens that don't know/care
kq, it's not as easy as you think.
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I was guilty of a parking violation in England this past summer. I was parked on the shoulder, but there was a zig zag line painted on the curb, meaning that I was parked in the approach to a crosswalk. At the time I didn't know what the zig zag line meant. The officer said that the fine would be 200 pounds. When I handed her my state-side driver's license, she was disappointed to discover that I wasn't English. The paperwork required to extract a fine from a non-citizen was not worth her trouble so she let me go with a warning.
Imagine trying to extract a fine from somebody with no I.D. at all.
So give them a driver's license. Is the name real? Is the address real? When they fail to pay the fine where do you send the court summons?
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
1. People here on visas are, by definition, not illegal aliens, and thus have the ability to get drivers licences. Any argument trying to tie illegal aliens to legal immigrants and legal foreign residents is deliberately dishonest.
2. Smugglers are not cheap, and they are not running a charity but a very profitable business. This business is frequently financed by conditions equal to or worse than slavery. Turning a blind eye to this modern slave trade in the name of 'humanity' is hypocritical in the extreme. Working to further facilitate it is Evil. Giving illegal aliens the privileges of citizenship in the name of 'rights' is facilitation. If you want to change immigration policy to allow more people to come in, then work for that. If you want to change the visa program to allow more unskilled labor to come in, then work for that. Illegals are not here legally and must be deported, albeit in a human and orderly fashion. Our border security has to be changed from the pathetic joke that it is now to something that actually secures the border. That means stopping the slave trade that currently passes through the porous boundary we have now.
3. Companies and individuals who knowingly exploit illegal labor, instead of hiring local unskilled workers (who cost much, much more), need to be fined. Painfully fined. Why am I paying people who can work unemployment and welfare benefits, while illegal aliens get jobs, frequently paying no taxes. That hurts me twice: paying someone to not work, while the taxes that should be generated by the work aren't collected.
4. The world is a sucky place. It has always been a sucky place. It will always be a sucky place. We cannot fix the world, and we certainly aren't ever going to fix it by letting everyone come here.
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quote:Originally posted by WntrMute: 4. The world is a sucky place. It has always been a sucky place. It will always be a sucky place. We cannot fix the world, and we certainly aren't ever going to fix it by letting everyone come here.
That's a cop-out answer. Of course the world will never be perfect, but we can certainly try to make it better.
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Skillery, to echo KQ, what you've said is very offensive. Not to mention that your statements are ignorant in the extreme.
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BC, your ignorance is staggering...or it would be, if it were not you....
They can, and do, get licences in several states as it stands now. I may not agree with those policies, but at least I don't presume to declare that I know they won't bother gettng licences.
Most of the ones who can drive probably would, because if a state allows them to be licenced regardless of immigration status it would make their lives easier, and they would have less of a problem if they are pulled over as they could register and insure their cars.
A lot of them only get caught when pulled over driving illegally.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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My mother and I were broadsided Christmas Eve 2001. We were turning left into a parking lot, some yahoo Mexican with a woman and an unsecured 2 year old in the back seat came flying up a turn lane doing about 60 miles an hour. The posted limit for that road is 30, and teh turn lane was expressly designated to turn into the parking lot we were turning into.
My mother, the driver, was thrown out of her seat - and out of her belt - across the passenger compartment and into my lap. I smacked my head against the side window, my arm into the door, plus ended up with over 250 pounds of mom aiding my sideways motion. Our vehicle was pushed into a third car which fortunately for them sustained property damage but no personal injury. The hotshot driver and his adult passenger apparently had no injuries, the child was thrown into the backside of the front seats and broke a leg.
The driver couldn't come up with a license at the scene. His adult passenger couldn't come up with a licence. At some point after I'd been loaded into an ambulance he was able to come up with some form of identification, but not a DL, because one of the tickets issues was "driving without a license". He never showed up for three traffic court appointments (my mother was present at all of them with the anticipation of having to refute any testimony he would attempt to give). His insurance (or at least the insurance whose information he provided) filed for a judgment of no liability because his policy specifically excluded automotive claims. In other words, it wasn't a car insurance policy he provided. No idea what kind of insurance it actually was. I have a copy someplace because the policy was an exhibit to the court complaint. That case got consolidated with Mom's insurance court claim for non-insured motorist judgment, and the hotshot never showed up for depositions or for the mediation.
But for some idiotic reason, the mediators sided with the hotshot. Never mind that the ticketing police officer testified that he was easily doing double the main road speed limit in a restricted lane. Never mind the physical evidence of impact locations and ricochet patterns. And never mind the fact that his own attorney acknowledged that "I have never spoken to the guy and for all I know he skipped the country, he isn't a US citizen". He was adjudicated as "not responsible" and we got stuck paying the bills.
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smitty, I never said it was easy. But shouldn't the citizens of the richest country of the world show a little more support for social equality, here and elsewhere, than we do?
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by WntrMute: 4. The world is a sucky place. It has always been a sucky place. It will always be a sucky place. We cannot fix the world, and we certainly aren't ever going to fix it by letting everyone come here.
That's a cop-out answer. Of course the world will never be perfect, but we can certainly try to make it better.
I think the key part of that statement was "we aren't going to fix it by letting everyone come here." That's true, not a cop-out. It would be much better to improve other parts of the world so that lifestyles elsewhere are equal to those in the US. Since that is proving rather difficult, the US can only allow so many people to legally immigrate and maintain its social structure.
Also, I've managed the payroll for several small businesses all owned by legal immigrants who prefer employing other immigrants. They are mostly from Hispanic countries-- Ecuador, El Salvador, Mexico, Colombia, etc. They said they had no problems coming over. Some were even pursuing citizenship, and the paperwork and documentation didn't seem to be a huge problem. We did have to decline supporting one man's visa, but at least he was looking to be in the States legally! I think the main problem is border security and the volume of people wanting to enter the States that way, because in places like California and Texas (versus Hawaii), I'm sure it is hell to apply for visas and such when you can just hop the fence, so to speak.
Posts: 308 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
When I got my first driver's license, I had to provide a copy of my social security card for identification. Maybe that's not the case for some states. But if illegal immigrants are allowed driver's licenses, will that requirement be voided in that case? What would stop somebody who's not an illegal alien to claim that they are in order to get a fake ID under a different name?
I think the solution is to improve the immigration and asylum processes (as others have already said) to make it easier to be here legally, either as a citizen or a non-citizen resident, or on a work visa, or whatever. I also agree that businesses who are employing illegal immigrants to pay less than minimum wages need to be punished for that, preferably with fines.
quote:Should states give drivers licenses to illegal aliens?
Of course they should. Stop thinking with your wounded outrage, and your sense of what should be reserved for you as one of God's chosen ones, and think instead of the practicality. If you don't give them drivers' licenses, they will drive without insurance, and that will raise costs for all of us.
(And skillery really ought to know better, given that we have been down this road before. Aliens can and do get drivers' licenses here, and they get insurance too. Why? For the same reason as anybody else does. And I'm talking from personal knowledge here, not sweeping jingoistic hysteria coupled with ignorant supposition.)
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Offensive to our system that thrives on the blood and sweat of our guest laborers.
To whom would you sell your junky old car if we didn't have lower-class consumers. You'd have to pay somebody to haul it away, or leave it parked in your yard.
Forget about upgrading to a better home without a lower class to buy your old home.
Our society creates junk faster than the lower class can buy it up. Rather than cutting back on the junk-making, it's easier to bring in more lower-class consumers.
The bank that gave my illegal neighbors their home loan realizes that we must have a lower class for our economy to function, else what would they do with all their home mortgage foreclosures.
The big box stores know they can't compete without underpaid, lower-class employees. They also know that lower-class people stocking their first homes from scratch make the best consumers of retail goods.
Grocery prices would go through the ceiling without lower-class farm workers.
I must conclude that our guests are here by our invitation. Unfortunately, at the same time we've declared them outlaws, creating a class of people upon whom the law has no claim. They have no name or number or address.
I say open the borders, let them in, assign them a number, take their photograph, record their name, and require them to notify the government when their mailing address changes. Just like the rest of us.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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NO! Illegal immigrants should be afraid to raise their head. The operative word in illegal immigration is ILLEGAL. They are criminals.
Posts: 650 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I don't know, I think I am somewhere in the middle on this one. I think if they are here illegally then they should be deported, but I know my ancestors immigrated here.
Of course they did it legally....
Here is the thing about using economics as a sole justification for either extreme...valid points are on both sides.
If there were no illegal immigrant work force then wages will have to rise...it is basic economics. That will raise prices....but then most of us at the lower end of the food chain would be making more than we make right now, so it offsets, at least to some degree.
Sometimes it takes a while for the forces to balance out, like what is happening here in FL right now....wages have not risen, but the COL (particularly housing) has increased almost 200% in the past 5 years.
In some areas more. :|
But pure economic theory isn't the whole story.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
For those that are already here and are productive members of society....give them licenses, make them citizens over time. Make them pay taxes, give them the benefits of our crappy healthcare system, and make it so their illegal status can't hurt legal citizens a la Goody Scrivener's story.
For those that still want to come over, rework the immigration code for guest visas to facilitate guest worker programs that document everyone who comes in and send them back when the work is done. Increase border security and keep out illegals, but give them hope for a different and better LEGAL immigration process.
Bok -
Calling the US/Mexican border an arbitraty and imaginary line is a little silly. People have been fighting and dying to protect and extend artificial lines in the dirt for a few thousand years. And fairly hardcore in America for the last three hundred. Americans were raised to care about lines in the dirt, you can't wave your hand and change that, and I'm not totally sure you should. Unless you're advocating the annexation of Mexico.
Like it or not, those lines are set in stone to Americans, and the majority of us want that line defended. The people on the other side of that line need to make it better on that side, not give up on their own country to head here.
What hope is there for the future of Mexico if every Mexican forsakes his own country in order to make his life better in America, with no intention of ever returning? It's in the best interests of everyone if we stop looking at America as a breadbasket and Mexico as a wasteland, and start looking at Mexico as a land in need, and America as a helping hand.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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If there weren't illegals, wages would rise, but demand would go down to pay those wages, or more likely, a lobby would form to apply pressure to lower the minimum wage for those jobs commonly held by illegal or migrant workers, Kwea.
Lyr, fair enough... Ultimately they are completely arbitrary lines that should be erased at the earliest convenience, IMO.
As for your last paragraph, it attacks a strawman that is not borne out by the actual behaviors of illegal and migrant workers. They often DO go back, and even if _they_ don't, their money very definitely does.
If you want to maybe understand my position a bit more, consider that I see the US and Mexico as states, like California, or Indiana. We have free flow of labor between these boundaries, all because of essentially a contract between the states (and the federal government). I say we open up that contract to illegals, over time.
quote:I absolutely agree that unlicensed drivers need to be targeted and gotten off the road. I don't know if I necessarily agree with jail time as an appropriate punishment; I would hope they're using that as a "three strikes" penalty or something further down the line.
I'm skipping right over the illegal immigration question and speaking to the idea of jail time for driving while unlicensed.
Any offense or violation must, ultimately, carry the risk of jail time or it is simply unenforceable. This applies to building code violations and driving while unlicensed. In many cases, the jail time is not for the offense itself, but for either failure to pay fines or failure to comply with court orders to correct a violation.
If we think it's worth maintaining a system of licensing for drivers, then we must be willing to put at least some violators in jail at some point. Otherwise there's no point to having the licensing scheme.
Of course, jail should be much later in the process for non-dangerous offenses (not enough trees on your golf course or a mismatched brass door knocker in a historical district) than for public safety offenses (driving without a license or failing to maintain proper sewage facilities in an apartment house).
Where does driving without a license fall in that continuum? I think closer to the public danger end than the other. I'm not sure exactly where, though.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: If you want to maybe understand my position a bit more, consider that I see the US and Mexico as states, like California, or Indiana. We have free flow of labor between these boundaries, all because of essentially a contract between the states (and the federal government). I say we open up that contract to illegals, over time.
That is not how nations work. There would have to be about a gazillion things that would have to happen before that came close to being workable, not least of which would be a significant culture change in the more southerly areas vis-a-vis corruption.
Also, Canadians' heads would explode. *pooof* there they all go. Though the touques would cut down on the mess, somewhat.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Hey, this isn't an overnight thing; I know that. It's my end goal. In the short term, raising the quotas for nations that tend to have high illegal immigrant rates (and giving these new slots to currently illegal immigrants) would be a good start.
quote: As for your last paragraph, it attacks a strawman that is not borne out by the actual behaviors of illegal and migrant workers. They often DO go back, and even if _they_ don't, their money very definitely does.
If you want to maybe understand my position a bit more, consider that I see the US and Mexico as states, like California, or Indiana. We have free flow of labor between these boundaries, all because of essentially a contract between the states (and the federal government). I say we open up that contract to illegals, over time.
Yes, their money does go back to help buy bread and pay the bills for their families. That's just getting by, that isn't making the country a better place. Giving them a life preserver is a lot different than building them a boat. You can't deny that millions are coming over here with the intention of STAYING and having nothing to do with Mexico, that much isn't a strawman, it's a fact of life the border patrol, census beureau, and immigration have been telling us about for years. This does nothing to help Mexico.
So if I understand you right, you think of North America as a nation, and Mexico, the US and Canada are all states within it, and we should have no borders, with a free flow of traffic and workers all throughout? Or do you mean to say the entire world should dissolve nationstates entirely for a world workforce with no boundaries? Regardless of what you mean, that kind of thing will happen about the same time the US Congress agrees to hand over sovereignty to the UN, which is basically the Fifth of Never.
A more achievable and realistic goal is a guest worker program to allow large numbers of Mexican labor into the US for periods of time and then making them go back to Mexico once they have earned that money. Legalizing it will give them higher wages, which will send more money back to Mexico where they can improve their lives. It means more American money leaving the country, but it's an investment in Mexico and a long term investment in America's economy.
At the very least, you have to admit I'm being much more reasonable and compromising than I have been in the past when arguing with you about this subject. Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I thought there was already legislation in the works that makes it so anyone in this country illegal can be deported if arrested. (not law yet, but in the works)
posted
More to the point, I think of humanity as a nation... Or maybe not even, as I feel like nation has a lot more assumptions built in than I would like to appropriate. They have had their use (and have uses still), but as far as restriction of labor, I don't see that use anymore.
I like the guest-worker idea (for the short-term), but you will have to allow a lower than minimum wage rate, or else hiring these workers will be more expensive, factoring all costs (like transport and aded paperwork), than hiring Americans... And that means somehow getting Americans excited to do the minimum wage jobs (which will raise prices a bit), or raise wages to a point that is enticing, which will raise prices more.
posted
You don't have to lower the minimum wage, you just add a provision that guest workers will have to make less than the minimum wage. You create a new minimum wage. The minimum wage argument for the average American worker in this nation should be about RAISING it, not lowering it. America is expensive enough as it is.
Create a separate wage for guest workers, and they've worried about their own transportation since illegal immigration began, that isn't a cost factor, or at least, it certainly isn't a new one. Yes, the price of some goods will go up, but they'll go up to where they should have been to begin with.
As for national boundaries. I sort of agree. I look forward to the day we have a more cohesive world government and what not, and become a race of Men, and not a race of Americans, Europeans, etc etc. But the only way to get there is to set realistic and reasonable short term goals that lead towards a long term finish.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Does the term "driving without a license" include just forgetting to bring your license with you? If I was pulled over while driving and had accidently left my license at home would I be arrested?
Posts: 1658 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
In Michigan you get a ticket for driving without a license, but 9 times out of 10 you can get the ticket expunged if you bring your license to the police station with the ticket and tell them what happened.
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I don't have the answers, but I'm saying jail time isn't a good answer to relatively small offences. I'm not coming down against illegal aliens, I'm actually trying to say that it should be easier for them to become legal. I'm not faulting people for trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
