posted
There's other choices than Romney. I am well aware that Giuliani must have appealed to ... something. I guess I could see Giuliani bringing New York if Hillary is completely out of the picture. But that doesn't seem to be a large possibility. Folks talk about a Clinton/Obama ticket, but not the other way around.
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posted
Not to discount the potential bigotry, but Mitt Romney doesn't exactly have a strong political record of standing for Pat Robertson's principles.
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I really don't see Giuliani bringing New York, even if Hillary isn't the nominee.
I think Giuliania promised Pat something, he would have had to of given some sort of guarantees to Pat in order to get this, considering socially Rudy might as well be Bill Clinton. Robertson is hoping that if he helps Rudy now, when Rudy wins, Robertson can call in some favors, it's pretty clear there. If he actually cared about suporting someone who really stood for his views, he'd support Mike Huckabee.
But this has a potential backlash built in. Just because Pat Robertson says so, doesn't mean everyone will fall in line. This might further the split.
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posted
Pat Robertson is a former presidential candidate himself. Maybe he's thinking VP. But that seems a bit transparent.
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I am still trying to decide which of these possibilities with respect to Romney is true:
1) He had a genuine change of heart on the abortion issue. 2) He misrepresented his views as pro-choice to gain election in Mass. 3) He is misrepresenting his views as pro-life now to win the nomination.
If I become convinced of 1, I will likely vote for him in the primary. I have a serious problem voting for him if I become convinced that 2 or 3 is the true story.
Am I leaving out a possibility here?
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quote:considering socially Rudy might as well be Bill Clinton.
BTW, this isn't quite true. On the abortion issue, at least, Rudy is far more likely to appoint a pro-life judge than Clinton was.
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posted
On pro-life, Romney has said his responsibility as a local leader was different from what it would be as a national leader. Mormons are a bit gray on abortion (I personally am not, but I'm rather in the minority.) I'm not really counting on Romney at this point. Of course, I don't even know Maryland's primary date, but I'm likely to vote for whoever is challenging Giuliani at that point.
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posted
I'm well-acquainted with his statements on the subject, including his account of how the embryonic stem cell issue caused him to rethink the matter.
I just don't know if I believe him.
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I am still trying to decide which of these possibilities with respect to Romney is true:
1) He had a genuine change of heart on the abortion issue. 2) He misrepresented his views as pro-choice to gain election in Mass. 3) He is misrepresenting his views as pro-life now to win the nomination.
If I become convinced of 1, I will likely vote for him in the primary. I have a serious problem voting for him if I become convinced that 2 or 3 is the true story.
Am I leaving out a possibility here?
Personally (as a Romney-supporter and MA resident) I think the closest is (2) with a bit of (1). Romney ran for governor (IIRC) on a fiscal responsibility, social minimalist type ticket. Most of his statements about social issues were that he wouldn't change the status quo. MA voters took that as tacit endorsement of the states' social liberality. They received a rather rude awakening when Romney took office. While I don't know of any examples of Romney contradicting his campaign promises, his views (and actions) on gay marriage, RU-486, and other social issues were certainly not what much of the voting populace had apparently expected.
That said, I imagine Romney has become more conservative (at least on social issues) in the intervening years, particularly in comparison to his 1994 Senate run (the strongest "pro-choice" statements used against Romney have come from this earlier campaign). I imagine becoming a grandfather has also had some impact on his views on social issues as well.
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Am I leaving out a possibility here?
The cynic in me wants to point out that although you did not explicitly preclude the possibility, it could also be both 2 AND 3. He might personally actually have a very moderate opinion or no opinion at all, and he simply grabbed onto whatever opinion he thought might benefit him the most at the time Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Mucus, I thought the same thing. And it's not just the abortion issue for Romney--the same analysis can apply for other issues. For example, gun control, sex education, gay rights...well, it's a long list. The only constant is Romney has stated the position most likely to get him elected in the current race with the current electorate.
There's nothing wrong with an ambition to be president--unless that ambition trumps all principle.
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quote:considering socially Rudy might as well be Bill Clinton.
BTW, this isn't quite true. On the abortion issue, at least, Rudy is far more likely to appoint a pro-life judge than Clinton was.
On the political scale, he's a lot closer socially to Bill than he is to any of the other Republican candidates. Pro gay rights, he's the only Republican candidate who even comes close. More allowing of abortion, which the Republican side considers taboo. He's had two divorces, one of them extremely messy, which in a family values centric (and after all the scandals lately, a very wary) Republican party.
On that scale, I think he's closer to Bill than to the others.
Not like it really matters though, Giuliani is only running on 9/11 anyway.
Interestingly though, recent polls show that the economy is more important than the war on terror to people. And when you compare Rudy to Hillary based just on the economy, to people who find the economy to be extremely important, she wins by more than 20%.
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posted
Certainly he's closer to Bill, but that doesn't mean "might as well be." Nothing significant can happen on the abortion front until SCOTUS changes.
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quote:Mormons are a bit gray on abortion (I personally am not, but I'm rather in the minority.)
I don't know (m)any Mormons who are "gray" on abortion; can you explain what you mean?
Not to speak for pooka, but it's my understanding that the church's stance on when abortion may be morally justifiable allows for significant exceptions (rape, incest, health of the mother) that aren't endorsed by the strict "pro-life" platform.
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posted
Why would you call those "significant exceptions?" Do you mean significant in terms of departure from the strict pro-life platform, or in terms of numbers?
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Why would you call those "significant exceptions?" Do you mean significant in terms of departure from the strict pro-life platform, or in terms of numbers?
posted
Why don't we just have a giant televised death match between all the candidates? Weapons are randomly assigned, ranging from daggers to machetes to maces.
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quote:Mormons are a bit gray on abortion (I personally am not, but I'm rather in the minority.)
I don't know (m)any Mormons who are "gray" on abortion; can you explain what you mean?
I mean Brigham Young opined that the soul enters the body at the time of "quickening" or when the mother can feel the baby move, about 15 to 17 weeks. Abortion is considered a "heinous" sin but not murder, justified in cases of rape, incest and danger to the life of the mother, and to be prayerfully considered in cases of severe fetal deformity or danger to the health of the mother.
I mean, yeah, 80% of Americans would probably go with that.
I decided a couple of years ago that until we know when life does start, I'll assume it starts at conception. At the time I was pushing for a 7 week line, but someone (and I really don't remember who) called me an idiot so I decided to go with -2 weeks.
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Anyway, I am pretty lukewarm on Romney. As I was driving home, I realize I'm probably for McCain. He doesn't have the greatest personality, but I think he might have a chance of beating Hillary. Assuming he's honestly pro-life, I'm very impressed that he has a bona fide military record.
P.S. I scanned McCain on Wikipedia. Boy those entries are off-sides.
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posted
The more I read about Romney the more I like him, I do think he has a solid chance of winning the Republican nomination, it's unfortunate that his religion is an issue. It's even more unfortunate that on the campaign trail he has basically disowned any knowledge of his own health care plan that he passed in Mass. I don't know why he does not push that more to the front so that people see him as a Republican who can still work with a Democratic legislature. Obama does it, and it has only helped him.
Perhaps he feels he would lose fiscal conservative support for lauding his successes with big government legislation.
edit: I think Romney genuinely changed his mind on Abortion, I don't think he is picking a position that will garner him more votes.
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quote:I don't think he is picking a position that will garner him more votes.
It's incontestable that the change will garner him more votes in the primary, though.
What's giving me pause about him is the timing of the various changes of hearts he's had. There's a pattern there, one I need to investigate more.
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quote:I don't think he is picking a position that will garner him more votes.
It's incontestable that the change will garner him more votes in the primary, though.
What's giving me pause about him is the timing of the various changes of hearts he's had. There's a pattern there, one I need to investigate more.
IIRC, he also was very fast to make fun of liberal Massachusetts during one of the early debates. Which is fine, but when you live there, work there and raise your family there, it seems to me he's either trying to redesign himself for the base, or he was deceptive about who he was in the first place.
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I don't have a candidate that I like as much as I have candidates I don't like. I think Guiliani is a mess - a power-hungry, crappy leader who alienates his subordinates and lies through his teeth about his record while having the personal life of a drunken sailor. He'd be a terrible leader. Talk about 9/11 making the terrorists win - if that pushes Guiliani to the presidency then the American public gets what we deserve. Gah!
Also, my general impression of Clinton is that she is capable but not very honest. That's also not cool.
Unfortunately, if the front runners stay the front runners, the two candidates I dislike the most will be the only choices. Grrr...
For whom I like, I really like Bill Richardson - great resume, good personal life, and he seems funny and capable. Obama and Romney would be not bad.
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posted
It's also kind of tacky to poke fun (but not in a self-depreciating way) at the state you're the govenor of.
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quote:I don't think he is picking a position that will garner him more votes.
It's incontestable that the change will garner him more votes in the primary, though.
This is certainly true, no argument there.
quote: What's giving me pause about him is the timing of the various changes of hearts he's had. There's a pattern there, one I need to investigate more.
To be frank I am not sure how one could possibly come to a good conclusion on this matter, barring talking to Mit himself and even then knowing if he was telling the truth or not. All it seems we can do is speculate. The only reason I have for believing him is that after reading what I have on him he does not seem like the kind of guy who simply flip flops when it's convenient.
I read an anecdote I liked where his investment firm was deciding whether to approve an investment in a movie company that produced among other things, R rated movies. Romney himself does not watch R rated movies and it could be argued that by approving the investment he would be supporting something he does not agree with. He ultimately decided that he would approve the investment, but would not follow his standard practice of investing some of his own money in the venture. I think those sorts of decisions are precisely what a man of faith has to make as president. I think it was the right choice to make.
I know the timing on his opinions regarding abortion seems pretty convenient, but at the same time when it comes time to campaigning, people often have to sit down and evaluate what their positions are on everything. The higher the post the more opinions you must have, and the better you have to articulate those positions.
As an aside what resources do YOU have Dag that would assist you in your research?
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I could see it being the stem cell issue, but I've never seen a primary source on that. The church made an amorphous statement on it about 5 years ago. It seemed amorphous to me, though it made a lot of scientists mad.
P.S. Mormons also have that "honor and uphold the law" ethic, and Roe v. Wade is what passes for law in this country right now. What are the pro-choice statements you judge him by, Dag?
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quote:I know the timing on his opinions regarding abortion seems pretty convenient
As I understand it, this change of heart came during a time when he had mulitple other changes of heart away from MA voters' preferences and towards Republican base voters' preferences and took to bashing MA.
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quote:As an aside what resources do YOU have Dag that would assist you in your research?
None, really. I haven't committed much time to it at this point. I've read a few op-eds, some pro-Romney, some against.
Our primary isn't for more than four months, and this might be decided by then, so I haven't gotten serious about my candidate research yet.
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quote:I know the timing on his opinions regarding abortion seems pretty convenient
As I understand it, this change of heart came during a time when he had mulitple other changes of heart away from MA voters' preferences and towards Republican base voters' preferences and took to bashing MA.
I've heard that accusation, and I just have not seen it. It seems to be little more than an exagerated unfair summation of his administration.
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quote:P.S. Mormons also have that "honor and uphold the law" ethic, and Roe v. Wade is what passes for law in this country right now. What are the pro-choice statements you judge him by, Dag?
quote:"I am humbled to be standing among the many who have toiled for the pro-life movement for so long, when I arrived at this place of principle only a few years ago.
"I appreciate the decades of dedication and the effective advocacy of people like Jim Bopp, the Special Adviser to my campaign on life issues.
"I know that it is not time but conviction that unites us.
"I proudly follow a long line of converts – George Herbert Walker Bush, Henry Hyde, and Ronald Reagan to name a few
"I am evidence that your work, that your relentless campaign to promote the sanctity of human life, bears fruit.
...
"When I first ran for office, while I was always personally opposed to abortion, I considered whether this should be a private decision or whether it should be a societal and government decision. I concluded that I would support the law as it was in place – effectively, the pro-choice position.
"And I was wrong.
Knowing many people who have done this, I don't find it as unbelievable as some pundits seem to. Further, there are elements of his story that sound similar to other conversion stories.
Edit: As I said, though, the timing makes me want to investigate further.
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I'm not sure a conversion story that is similar to other conversion stories necessarily tells us anything.
Despite being a Mormon (sorry, couldn't resist), I'm sure he's a relatively smart guy. It would not take a lot of effort to craft or exaggerate a conversion story based on various elements that one could find via research.
In fact, I would not be surprised that it would actually takes more effort to come up with a truly unique and different story. So I'm not sure we can come to a conclusion either way.
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Sorry, which part did I lose you? Actually, I haven't actually said anything in this thread which is dependent on my stance on the issue.
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pooka: Now I'm the one thats confused. You asked me whether I was pro-life. My reply was that my contributions to this thread, particularly on Romney, have no dependence on my stance on abortion. I'm not sure where you linked that reply to his being a Mormon.
Dagonee: True. Then I'm not sure "a conversion story that is similar to other conversion stories necessarily tells us" much
JH: A) I don't buy the equivalence between attributes such as skin colour, race, or gender (which are determined at birth and have no real link with intelligence) and attributes such as religion which are not only chosen, but may very well have links with intelligence e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence
On a similar note, I find the attempted equivalence between race and religion, such as that implied in the word "Islamophobia" rather obnoxious and potentially dangerous.
B) The more important thing is if you're offended, sorry. It was meant as a joke. If it makes you feel better, look up the non-politically-correct joke thread. IIRC, I posted a few jokes about Chinese people Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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I thought you were implying you were neutral on issues. Romney being Mormon shouldn't be an issue, but to some folks it apparently is.
So why are you boasting about making fun of Chinese people? Is it because you know I'm of Chinese heritage, or was that a lucky stab in the dark?
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Seriously, I think it's a test of economic strength and educational opportunity, which sometimes but not always goes with "religiosity."
Wow, the IQ data is from a book called "IQ and the wealth of Nations." I'm fairly shocked that someone would look at a list of religiosity, see it's resemblance to a list of poverty, and then strip away the poverty to try and make an argument about religiosity as original research.
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posted
Considering you're lumping all religious people together without regard to individual denominations, I know your ignorant sideswipe doesn't matter.
To make it clear: it isn't cool. I don't believe it was entirely a joke. That you make slurs about other people doesn't make it better.
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Ok, I think there is a lot of confusion and jumping to conclusions here so I'll try to clear some of it up. There are two separate issues here:
A) My comments on the conversion story:
quote:Originally posted by pooka: I'm confused, Mucus, are you pro-life?
quote:Originally posted by pooka: I thought you were implying you were neutral on issues. Romney being Mormon shouldn't be an issue, but to some folks it apparently is.
As I said, my comments to Dagonee are not predicated on my stance on abortion, whether or not I have one. It just *amused me* to point out that there might be a fourth possibility to his three and that the conversion story may or may not say a heck of a lot about what Romney was thinking. These comments have nothing to do with my stance and I think Dagonee got that.
That said, I am not neutral on the issues. I have opinions on abortion. However, they are particularly steeped in the current Canadian situation and not entirely relevant to a thread about US political parties, particularly one focused on Romney. Additionally, I didn't want to confuse anyone as to why I was commenting on Dag's possibilities. Evidentially that failed
B) My joke about Mormons and that Romney is probably atypical:
quote:So why are you boasting about making fun of Chinese people? Is it because you know I'm of Chinese heritage, or was that a lucky stab in the dark?
quote:Seriously, I think it's a test of economic strength and educational opportunity, which sometimes but not always goes with "religiosity."
quote:So it's okay to make fun of yourself, is it? Are you Mormon as well?
First, I was attempting to demonstrate that for me nothing is sacred as far as what I can joke about. If I can joke about Chinese people, something that I actually am and had no choice in the matter, then certainly I can joke about attributes that people had a choice about. I'm an equal opportunity offender.
That said, I don't actually care to demonstrate in this thread whether there is any link between religiosity and intelligence, you can start a new thread if we want to do that.
To sum up: For that four word joke, it is simply dependent on the stereotype* that Mormonism is somewhat of a flaky religion and a bit of a scam that takes in gullible people. It is a stereotype, Romney obviously does not fit this stereotype.
As JH pointed out, it is not entirely a joke. Many jokes about stereotypes have a kernel of truth in them, simply because many stereotypes have a kernel of historical truth or reality about them.
To make it clear, for me: Treating people differently due to factors out of their control such as race or gender: Bad Treating people differently due to factors in their control such as religion, political party, or favourite beer: Grey-area Making offensive jokes about factors out of people's control such as race or gender: Definitely! Making offensive jokes about factors in people's control: Bring it on!
We're far into my comfort zone as far as jokes are concerned.
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posted
Romney is one of my favorite candidates. This is because he has been able to be conservative for the most liberal state in America (I lived in Massachusetts for six years. I know what it's like) and is not stubborn. He seems sincere about his conversion on the issue of abortion, which proves that reason and logic gets through to him. One thing that's hard for me to admire about him though is that he insists that everyone should leave his religion out of this. While I partially agree with him, he says it the wrong way. People shouldn't judge what he'll do by what church he goes to, but if he's a sincere believer, his morals and values will be at least partly influenced by his faith, so it's good to know what Mormonism is about if Romney is to become President.
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Well, Mucus, I'm sorry for everything I said prior to what you just posted. And since what you just posted was provoked by me, I'll have to take part of that on my head. And I'll take your slams against Mormonism as an odd sort of compliment, since I think there are groups you wouldn't tease.
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quote:I'm not sure a conversion story that is similar to other conversion stories necessarily tells us anything.
It means there's reason not to dismiss it out of hand as patently unbelievable.
The reasons to be sceptical of Romney's conversion story are not evident in the story itself but rather in the context. Romney's "conversion" to opposing legal abortion happened at a point when he transitioned from being a politician in a liberal pro-choice state to courting the conservative religious right for the republican presidential nomination. It is that context and not the details of his conversion that make the story suspect.
This is just one of many things in Romney's political career that make him look like a political opportunist rather than an individual with genuine political convictions.
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