quote:Originally posted by Threads: Do you realize that many Palestinians share very similar feelings about Israel being "their land"? Some still have the keys and deeds to the homes that they were kicked out of decades ago (my history teacher personally knows a family that does). It amazes me that you can declare Israel to be your people's land based off of ancestry while completely ignoring similar Palestinian claims.
Does it really amaze you, or are you being rhetorical? Because if I'm forced out of my home, and while I'm away, someone breaks in and writes himself a deed, I don't much care about his deed. So the Ottomans conquered the region and started giving out deeds to their own people. This concerns me exactly why?
So people who have been living there for centuries should just pack up and leave because your people lived there two thousand years ago? Does your argument work if you don't believe that Jews have a God-given right to the land?
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Threads:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Which I wouldn't care about, really, except that it's used to try and delegitimize the real owners of Israel, which is the people of Israel.
That is not a fact. It's your opinion.
No, it's fact.
In your opinion. The concept is easily disputable.
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quote:Originally posted by the_Somalian: ... some norm that only exists in your head.
Yes, because the topic list in the forum is just littered with starting posts with only a link and nothing else.
It didn't take me long to find two examples:...
Two examples? Out of roughly 40? And one of them Resh's amazingly abnormal thread? Way to point out that 38/40 posts *aren't* just a provocative link.
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quote: Yes, because the topic list in the forum is just littered with starting posts with only a link and nothing else.
You didn't really qualify this, so whatever. Anyway, I think it's kind of petty to expect me to have added "I think the Israeli's are doing bad things" or something to that effect. I just wanted to share the article. Don't be so peevish, ya'll.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Two examples? Out of roughly 40? And one of them Resh's amazingly abnormal thread? Way to point out that 38/40 posts *aren't* just a provocative link.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: We never forfeited our own claim to our own land.
And I suppose that the people that lived there before Jews got there for the "very" first time have given up all of their claims to their land?
You obviously won't accept that the owner of the land gave it to us, but He did. Aside from that, everyone who once lived there before us assimilated into the surrounding cultures and ceased to exist as a discrete nationality. Certainly, none of stuck around and publically and loudly proclaimed their claim to the land several times daily for the past several millenia. We did.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: [Resent away. You are young, and idealistic, and that's great. But you don't know what you're talking about. This isn't me "considering them a threat". What the hell do they have to do to convince you that I'm right about them? Wipe out half of our population? Forgive me, but I think our ethical obligation is to stop them before they do that.
You have to convince me you're less of a monster than they are. You've just advocated wiping out an entire race of human beings, or at the very least denying them their rights AS human beings.
That's ridiculous. In the first place, the very idea that you could compare killing people with denying them "rights" that you arbitrarily claim for them is appalling. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying such a thing. That's the remark of a child who thinks being denied what he wants is the same thing as being killed.
In the second place, I dispute your claim that I'm talking about denying them human rights. They don't have any right to stay where they are and continue a genocidal war against us. They don't have any right that obligates us to be willing targets for their murderous evil.
quote:Originally posted by Human: You've just said you don't care if they die.
Why should I? I also said that if there are two ways to stop them, it's correct to pick the one that harms them less. Precisely because they are human beings, and are capable of turning away from the evil that they've chosen to do. But it isn't my responsibility to save them from themselves.
I'll tell you what, Human. You go and find a cop and try and take his gun from him and point it at him. If you survive the attempt, you can come back and tell me how rude he was to try and put you down before you had a chance to kill him. How he didn't take your rights into consideration.
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posted
I don't see how anyone can dispute that Israel belongs to anyone other than the Israelis. Any small amount of research will show that there is no doubt as to how they came to repossess the land after it was taken from them so many times over in history. If the argument is "Israel is an abuser of human rights, but the Palestinians can be forgiven for doing much worse because (insert reason here)," then you may have something worth debating. But to say that Israel has no claim to the land is to simply be taking sides, and against an ally and for a declared enemy. So be proud of yourself for sympathizing with the wrong side, traitors. Maybe you'll learn what virtue is in hell.
That was kind of harsh, so try to remember who's writing before you get all butt-hurt.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Does it really amaze you, or are you being rhetorical? Because if I'm forced out of my home, and while I'm away, someone breaks in and writes himself a deed, I don't much care about his deed. So the Ottomans conquered the region and started giving out deeds to their own people. This concerns me exactly why?
So people who have been living there for centuries should just pack up and leave because your people lived there two thousand years ago? Does your argument work if you don't believe that Jews have a God-given right to the land?
Actually, there were Jews who lived in the land straight through, despite the Roman expulsion. The town of Pekiin is a notable example. The last Jews were finally forced out last month by Arab violence.
But it's moot. Even international law discusses at what point a displaced populace loses a claim on its land. The fact that we never stopped publically declaring our intent to someday return to our land means that the Arab conquest was illegal on the face of it. Do I feel bad for people who grew up there wrongly, not realizing that they were on our land? A little. I'd feel a lot worse had they not been trying to kill us for so long.
quote:Originally posted by Threads:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Threads:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Which I wouldn't care about, really, except that it's used to try and delegitimize the real owners of Israel, which is the people of Israel.
That is not a fact. It's your opinion.
No, it's fact.
In your opinion. The concept is easily disputable.
So you think that your ability to dispute something makes it not a fact? There've been plenty of disputes on this forum about evolution, about global warming, about pretty much anything. So none of those can be a matter of fact, because they can be disputed?
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the_Somalian: ^you said:
quote: Yes, because the topic list in the forum is just littered with starting posts with only a link and nothing else.
You didn't really qualify this, so whatever. Anyway, I think it's kind of petty to expect me to have added "I think the Israeli's are doing bad things" or something to that effect. I just wanted to share the article. Don't be so peevish, ya'll.
You lie. You wanted to share the article because you have an agenda to try and demonize Israel. The last three threads you started make it pretty clear.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I'll tell you what, Human. You go and find a cop and try and take his gun from him and point it at him. If you survive the attempt, you can come back and tell me how rude he was to try and put you down before you had a chance to kill him. How he didn't take your rights into consideration.
Sure. But if he beats me into a bloody pulp after shoving me into his cop car and restraining me with handcuffs, I'm gonna sue his ass. Don't patronize me, Lisa. I may not be as old as you, but I'm not dumb, either. You want me to listen to you, treat me like something other than an idiot. Like I said, I think you're both wrong. But I at least understand BOTH points of view. Doesn't make me agree with either point, but at least I have a better chance of making a fair decision.
But like I said, I'm done. I do not shy away from debate, but any discussion where I'm treated like a fool for holding my own, not-unreasonable opinion has moved far beyond debate.
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posted
You think you understand both points of view, but you do not. You refuse to understand their point of view, and that's why you come to unreasonable and irrational conclusions. You want to think that they're people like you, who can be reasoned with. That's commendable. If we hadn't made the same mistake these past 60+ years, this war would have ended long ago. But the problem is, I think there really is nothing they can do to convince you that you're wrong about them. I can't even imagine them doing something blatant enough that you wouldn't find some way to look for blame elsewhere. Because you can't accept that an entire cultural group can be implacably evil.
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posted
No, I can't. I cannot believe that an entire RACE is evil. Because too many people have made that claim and been wrong. For god's sake, I'm GAY. And people have been claiming my entire life that there's something about gay people that makes them evil and wrong and inherently bad. They said that about the blacks, they said that about Asians, they said that about the Jews, they said that about the native Americans, it's been used as an excuse thousands of times throughout history: "They're just all evil, they can't be reasoned with, they're just animals, so who cares if we kill them?"
And you know what the real irony is? I bet there's plenty of Palestinians that say the same thing about Israelis: "They can't be reasoned with, they just want us all dead, they've kept us from our homes and jobs, they can't be trusted...so we'll deal with it for once and for all." And who's more right? You? Because the Torah tells you so? Because God came down from the heavens and mandated that Israel was to be yours and no others? When does it stop? If it stops when the other side is dead, then be HONEST about it and start killing them, instead of pretending that we can still be nice about it!
But no. I am not so foolish to believe that every man, woman and child of an entire group of people, thousands strong, is irredeemably evil and should be removed or destroyed. Because then it makes that sort of claim legitimate, and I don't like where that stops.
Posts: 3658 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I agree [edit:]with Lisa. Cultural relativism. When you see people dancing and celebrating because one of their own killed himself or herself in an attempt to kill as many innocent people as possible, women and children included, you don't try to understand them, You don't sympathize with their plight. And you don't point to the fact that there are some in the culture who do not agree with the murder. Because we aren't talking about individuals; we are talking about a culture that must be destroyed. Since we are better than them, we may not need to resort to outright killing the members of the culture. But the culture itself must die, or it will kill us instead.
Generally speaking. In relation to Israel and Palestine, things are too complicated and we must be more specific.
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posted
Then when you succeed, and you dance in the streets because the evil monsters are dead, honoring your warriors who died to make that happen--what does that make you? Conquering heroes?
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posted
Ok, so can we make a distinction Human between a Race and a Culture? The Race is fine, but the Culture is evil...? The confusion lies with the fact that the Culture consists of one Race. But take the individual of said Race out of Said Culture and you have a potentially wonderful human being.
I am not addressing homosexuality here whatsoever.
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quote:Originally posted by the_Somalian: ^you said:
quote: Yes, because the topic list in the forum is just littered with starting posts with only a link and nothing else.
You didn't really qualify this, so whatever. Anyway, I think it's kind of petty to expect me to have added "I think the Israeli's are doing bad things" or something to that effect. I just wanted to share the article. Don't be so peevish, ya'll.
You lie. You wanted to share the article because you have an agenda to try and demonize Israel. The last three threads you started make it pretty clear.
I didn't put forth a reason for why I wanted to share the article, so it makes no sense for you to be accuse me of lying.
Israel is already a pariah state much like apartheid South Africa, with whom it had a close relationship. I don't really need to do much to demonize it. Anyway, if criticizing Israel is automatically deemed "demonization" by you then so be it.
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quote:Originally posted by Human: No, I can't. I cannot believe that an entire RACE is evil.
Human, they aren't a race. Nor are they evil by reason of their birth. That's what racism is, you know. Being against a group of people because of who they are, inherently. Not because of any choices they've made, but because of their identity.
That's not what we're talking about here. I know Palestinian Arabs who have converted to Judaism. Some of those are among the most passionate opponents of the culture they came from, precisely because they know it better than anyone else.
It's a cliche, but what I think is a lot like the "blessing for the Czar" in Fiddler on the Roof. "May the Lord bless and keep the Czar... far, far away." Let them live and be well. Elsewhere. They won't behave themselves where they are now. They try incessantly to kill me and mine. They lionize the murderers. They celebrate our tragedies. We don't celebrate when Arabs die in our attempts to prevent their violence. If you can't see the difference, I'm sorry for you.
quote:Originally posted by Human: Because too many people have made that claim and been wrong. For god's sake, I'm GAY.
What the hell do you think I am, Human? For that matter, I'm trans. When I came out, even the gay community treated people like me like crap. You want to play "Who is the bigger victim of discrimination"? That's silly. Homophobia sucks. Anti-semitism sucks. People who hate Arabs for being Arabs suck, too.
quote:Originally posted by Human: it's been used as an excuse thousands of times throughout history: "They're just all evil, they can't be reasoned with, they're just animals, so who cares if we kill them?"
And in every case, it's been "They're evil by their very nature. They can't even stop being evil. It's just who they are." This is different. I know for a fact that they can stop it. They choose not to. Is choosing good over evil an easy choice for them? In their culture of brainwashing, probably not. But a choice it damn well is.
quote:Originally posted by Human: And you know what the real irony is? I bet there's plenty of Palestinians that say the same thing about Israelis: "They can't be reasoned with, they just want us all dead, they've kept us from our homes and jobs, they can't be trusted...so we'll deal with it for once and for all." And who's more right? You? Because the Torah tells you so?
Because they celebrate death and murder, and we bend over backwards for the cause of peace. Sure, there probably are some of them who think that if we'd just frakking give up and leave, they wouldn't have to kill us any more. Well, tough. It would be a very bad idea to give them the idea that too many of them already have that violence and murder and atrocities can win them what they want.
You saw those videos of the Micky Mouse look-alike on Palestinian Arab official TV that told the kids to murder Jews, didn't you? Or did you? Did you miss that? Did you miss the bee that came afterwards? They've had a string of Sesame Street type critters sitting with young children in their laps listening to them parrot back that the Jews need to be killed.
If that's not evil, what is? Where are the voices of protest from within their ranks? Answer: they don't exist.
When you start to understand that this culture is absolutely dedicated to evil goals and evil means of carrying them out, you're going to be very disillusioned, I think.
quote:Originally posted by Human: But no. I am not so foolish to believe that every man, woman and child of an entire group of people, thousands strong, is irredeemably evil and should be removed or destroyed. Because then it makes that sort of claim legitimate, and I don't like where that stops.
Not irredeemably. But until they make the choice to stop their evil, then they need to be treated as they are.
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quote:Originally posted by Human: Then when you succeed, and you dance in the streets because the evil monsters are dead, honoring your warriors who died to make that happen--what does that make you? Conquering heroes?
We don't do that. We didn't even do it when Arafat died. Or when Saddam died. We don't do that. That's one of the big differences between us and them. Learn from it.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: That's a far cry from the popular support that suicide bombers receive among Palestinian Arabs. They name schools and streets after them. They celebrate them. They teach their children to want to grow up and be martyrs, so long as they take a bunch of Jews with them.
So no, Sterling, I'm not inclined to make the distinction. They don't. They lionize terrorists. They make them heroes of the people. We are revolted and horrified and come down on such people like a ton of bricks.
You should be ashamed of yourself for not making that distinction.
I should be ashamed for unwillingness to presume that every person in a group supports violence against the innocent?
I can't imagine trying to suggest to my neighbor that the person responsible for costing me my livelihood is deserving of justice and peace when said neighbor and many others vocally of the opposite view are loud and heavily armed.
I'm not ashamed of refusing to assume that humanity is unique to the Israeli side of the equation. And a big, stomping they can be used to justify all manner of things, but rhetoric should never be confused for accuracy.
quote: Quit it with the weasel words. Israel doesn't target civilians, period. Israel has, time and again, sent ground troops into hotbeds of terrorist activity, going door to door and taking massive casualties, when carpet bombing the area would have spared our own boys. It's sickening, but the Israeli government actually thinks that's either the moral thing to do, or at the very least the politically prudent thing to do. I can guarantee you that I'd do otherwise.
I "weaselly" dare to assume that there is actually some attempt to target the violent in these actions, that government-mounted efforts are not specifically targetting civilians, and that harm done to civilians in these actions is, at worst, the product of either accidents or a level of "collateral damage" considered acceptable for the goals the actions hope to attain. The latter is somewhat appalling, but the entirety of the above notion would be considered by many the height of naivite.
A less optimisitic view would suggest that Israel's restraint is tied in with the source of their superb military's funding, and that a policy of carpet-bombing in the name of sparing Israeli military casualties- if "some people" were in charge- would turn Israel from a well-funded and armed nation surrounded by a sea of enemies to a poorly funded and armed nation surrounded by a sea of enemies.
So, just so I'm clear and not being weaselly, Israel should probably thank its lucky stars you aren't in charge.
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: In your opinion. You're no judge of what's proportionate. And what the hell would be multilateral force? Israel's suppose to politely ask the nations of the world to help?
When children throwing stones are met by automatic weapons fire, I find that disproportianate. And "unilateral" is meant in this case as "one sided", as in, "this student is wearing a Palestinian flag pin, and upon refusing to remove it, they are shot."
Again, in my pro-Israel naivite, I'm willing to believe that such incidents are the work of individuals under strain, and most of their superiors neither support nor approve such actions.
It is, perhaps, an unavoidable result of extended service in a war zone.
quote:Or supporters of terrorists. Yes.
What can I possibly say to that?... If the man who could lead Palestine to a lasting peace becomes "collateral damage" as a boy today, God help us all.
quote:So if a nut takes an assault rifle and started randomly shooting up a college campus, and a person who is trained with firearms pulls a pistol and drops him with a single shot, the nut is a victim and the guy who shoots him is a villain? That's twisted. Badly twisted.
No, the person who trained in firearms and shoots the random killer is a hero. It's the guy who trained in firearms and shoots the random killer's friend just in case...
quote:That's not to say that we should kill them all indescriminately. Evil or not, they're still human beings. Every single one of them has the capacity to some day turn away from their evil and become civilized human beings instead of the barbarians they are.
Assuming you are correct, just where would the impetus for such a change come from?
quote:We don't have that luxury. If they were to surrender up the perpetrator of a terrorist action, we could punish that one person and be done with it. That's not how it works. This is a nation at war. They, as a nation, are trying to wipe us out. Those who fight, fight. Those who plan, plan. The rest support it, either actively or passively. They do nothing to stop it, and it's not because they're afraid, it's because they agree with it.
I wish I had a link to the comic in question, but I believe the punch line was "if being the good guys was easy, everyone would do it."
quote:All of those groups start from the premise that Israel is an aggressor...
From one of the linked sites in question:
quote:The Peres Center for Peace is an independent, non-profit, non-partisan, non-governmental organization founded in 1996 by Nobel Peace Laureate, former Prime Minister, and current President of Israel Mr. Shimon Peres, with the aim of furthering his vision in which people of the Middle East region work together to build peace through socio-economic cooperation and development, and people-to-people interaction...
...Does a group founded by Shimon Peres "starting from the premise that Israel is the aggressor" fit with the script?
quote:Right. It's just Israeli leaders who have misled us to think that the Palestinian Arab war of extermination against us enjoys virtually unanimous grassroots support. In your dreams, Sterling. You really have to shut your eyes to one instance after another of evil Palestinian Arab hate-mongering to believe that.
...Not what I said... But, again, where would the average Palestinian get anything that any message that countermanded the image the hate-mongers are producing, from either side?
quote:Israel keeps taking half measures. No question about that. And the State of Israel bears culpability for that. Like I said earlier, we have to decide to win. Until we do that, we're simply drawing this conflict out.
And if Israel stops taking "half measures" and peace still doesn't come?...
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Lisa: Then why are you waiting around for my approval to do something about it? Why is Israel waiting for anyone's approval? If they're evil, if they cannot be dealt with, if they are the kinds of abominations you say they are, then why wait? Why haven't bombs been dropped on the entire set of Palestinian Arab areas? Why haven't they already been forced out?
You don't need my approval, what are you waiting for?
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
i would like to point out that I do believe that Israel's foreign aid from the United States is somewhat trivial.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: i would like to point out that I do believe that Israel's foreign aid from the United States is somewhat trivial.
Are you kidding? Without US foriegn aid Israel's entire military infrastructure would collapse.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: That's a far cry from the popular support that suicide bombers receive among Palestinian Arabs. They name schools and streets after them. They celebrate them. They teach their children to want to grow up and be martyrs, so long as they take a bunch of Jews with them.
So no, Sterling, I'm not inclined to make the distinction. They don't. They lionize terrorists. They make them heroes of the people. We are revolted and horrified and come down on such people like a ton of bricks.
You should be ashamed of yourself for not making that distinction.
I should be ashamed for unwillingness to presume that every person in a group supports violence against the innocent?
No. You should be proud of yourself for presuming that. You should be ashamed of yourself for sticking to an uninformed presumption when there's so much information to disprove it.
There's nothing shameful about starting out thinking the best of people. There's nothing but shame in refusing to learn.
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: I can't imagine trying to suggest to my neighbor that the person responsible for costing me my livelihood is deserving of justice and peace when said neighbor and many others vocally of the opposite view are loud and heavily armed.
That's not my problem. There are societies that have risen up against evil people. These people not only don't rise up, but they celebrate in the streets when Jews are murdered. You honestly won't accept it, will you? There is nothing in God's earth that will make you accept the reality of it. It simply doesn't fit the way you want the world to be.
Oh, that's a great link. Let's start from the beginning. Adalah, an Arab group for "Arab rights" (meaning the right to kill us without repercussions). The "Alternative Palestinian Agenda", which has as one of its goals implementing the Palestinian "right of return", which means the "right" of millions of Palestinian Arabs who never lived here, but who have relatives who claim to have lived here, to return, and swamp us out of existence demographically. Arab Human Rights Association, same as Adalah. Let's skip some. Arab-Jewish Peace Walk. Israeli Jews who are so desperate for peace that they've embraced the Arab position on Israel.
You know what, I can't read through the whole thing. It's making me sick to my stomach. Why don't you find me one single instance on that page of a group that's dedicated to opposing Palestinian Arab violence against Israel. Just one.
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: I'm not ashamed of refusing to assume that humanity is unique to the Israeli side of the equation. And a big, stomping they can be used to justify all manner of things, but rhetoric should never be confused for accuracy.
quote: Quit it with the weasel words. Israel doesn't target civilians, period. Israel has, time and again, sent ground troops into hotbeds of terrorist activity, going door to door and taking massive casualties, when carpet bombing the area would have spared our own boys. It's sickening, but the Israeli government actually thinks that's either the moral thing to do, or at the very least the politically prudent thing to do. I can guarantee you that I'd do otherwise.
I "weaselly" dare to assume that there is actually some attempt to target the violent in these actions, that government-mounted efforts are not specifically targetting civilians, and that harm done to civilians in these actions is, at worst, the product of either accidents or a level of "collateral damage" considered acceptable for the goals the actions hope to attain. The latter is somewhat appalling, but the entirety of the above notion would be considered by many the height of naivite.
That's right, we do specifically try and avoid harming civilians. As contrasted to their side, where they specifically target them.
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: When children throwing stones are met by automatic weapons fire, I find that disproportianate.
Children throwing stone, my ass. They have teenagers hurling building bricks. Israeli soldiers have been killed by this "stone throwing".
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: And "unilateral" is meant in this case as "one sided", as in, "this student is wearing a Palestinian flag pin, and upon refusing to remove it, they are shot."
Never happened. More Palestinian propaganda. Any Israeli soldier doing any such thing would be in jail for a very, very long time.
quote:Originally posted by Sterling:
quote:Or supporters of terrorists. Yes.
What can I possibly say to that?... If the man who could lead Palestine to a lasting peace becomes "collateral damage" as a boy today, God help us all.
No one there is going to do that. Nor do we have any obligation to wait for them to find such a "messiah". They are a clear and present danger. We're not going to stand their like sheep baring our necks while we wait for them to regain a modicum of sanity.
quote:Originally posted by Sterling:
quote:That's not to say that we should kill them all indescriminately. Evil or not, they're still human beings. Every single one of them has the capacity to some day turn away from their evil and become civilized human beings instead of the barbarians they are.
Assuming you are correct, just where would the impetus for such a change come from?
The moral sense that every human being has, innately. Unlike Christians, we don't believe that people are born evil. Everyone has the ability to choose to do good. It is evil to target civilians. A human being who does so, or who praises someone who does so, is embracing evil.
quote:Originally posted by Sterling:
quote:We don't have that luxury. If they were to surrender up the perpetrator of a terrorist action, we could punish that one person and be done with it. That's not how it works. This is a nation at war. They, as a nation, are trying to wipe us out. Those who fight, fight. Those who plan, plan. The rest support it, either actively or passively. They do nothing to stop it, and it's not because they're afraid, it's because they agree with it.
I wish I had a link to the comic in question, but I believe the punch line was "if being the good guys was easy, everyone would do it."
So you sit on the sidelines and tell us that we have to be "good guys" by your standards. By standards you'd never adhere to in a million years yourself.
quote:Originally posted by Sterling:
quote:All of those groups start from the premise that Israel is an aggressor...
From one of the linked sites in question:
quote:The Peres Center for Peace is an independent, non-profit, non-partisan, non-governmental organization founded in 1996 by Nobel Peace Laureate, former Prime Minister, and current President of Israel Mr. Shimon Peres, with the aim of furthering his vision in which people of the Middle East region work together to build peace through socio-economic cooperation and development, and people-to-people interaction...
...Does a group founded by Shimon Peres "starting from the premise that Israel is the aggressor" fit with the script?
Yes. Peres is a tragedy. He was one of the architects of Oslo, and one of the people responsible for bringing Arafat out of his deserved obscurity in Libya. I hope to see the day when he is tried for treason.
quote:Originally posted by Sterling:
quote:Right. It's just Israeli leaders who have misled us to think that the Palestinian Arab war of extermination against us enjoys virtually unanimous grassroots support. In your dreams, Sterling. You really have to shut your eyes to one instance after another of evil Palestinian Arab hate-mongering to believe that.
...Not what I said... But, again, where would the average Palestinian get anything that any message that countermanded the image the hate-mongers are producing, from either side?
You don't do evil, regardless of the propaganda. That's what it means to be a decent human being.
quote:Originally posted by Sterling:
quote:Israel keeps taking half measures. No question about that. And the State of Israel bears culpability for that. Like I said earlier, we have to decide to win. Until we do that, we're simply drawing this conflict out.
And if Israel stops taking "half measures" and peace still doesn't come?...
And if Israel continues to bare its neck and peace doesn't come? I think sanity mitigates towards our taking action to protect ourselves.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: i would like to point out that I do believe that Israel's foreign aid from the United States is somewhat trivial.
Are you kidding? Without US foriegn aid Israel's entire military infrastructure would collapse.
One of the reasons I support Ron Paul is that he'd end foreign aid to Israel and to the Arabs. To answer Human's question above, if we weren't hooked on US aid like a back alley junkie on smack, we'd have dealt with this already.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Are you kidding? Without US foriegn aid Israel's entire military infrastructure would collapse.
If that's true, then it makes me more likely to support continuing such aid, considering that were there infrastructure to collapse, there's no reason to think that the many people who have officially called for wiping out Israel wouldn't take the chance to make good on their word.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Israel's defense infrastructure wouldn't collapse. They export enough military hardware all over the world to stay in business, and I suspect if the US pulled their aid, Israel would sell a lot more weapons than before, since they'd probably feel unhindered by US restrictions on what Israel can export, though that might come with even more problems. The US is Israel's biggest trade partner if I'm not mistaken, and sanctions on top of cut aid WOULD devastate Israel.
They'd still make all the weapons they usually make, they just wouldn't be able to afford to equip everyone, train everyone, and update their materiel nearly as well as they do now. Given the problems they had in Lebanon, I think it'd be enough to leave them seriously vulnerable to Arab attacks. On the other hand, they could pretty much do whatever they wanted. The people they sell to aren't going to stop buying their stuff because of politics, they just want the guns. But if they went too far, they'd be out on a limb with no support.
It'd be a tenuous situation, and I think that though Israel might find themselves politically much more free, the kinds of things that they'd want to do with that freedom would spur military action from their neighbors that the threat of US intervention has long kept at bay. It's hard to say what would happen.
Edit to add: I should reemphasize the difference in US aid types. While we give a sizeable portion of aid to Israel in the form of military machinery which we purchase and give to them, and cash infusions for their military as well, aid also comes in the form of large loans to their government. Israel has always had big trade deficits, which result from having few natural resources but a high technology sector that makes for good exports (just not enough). They always have budget deficits, but we cover a lot of them through loans, and currently own half of Israel's debt. If the US cut off ALL aid to Israel, all aid entirely, it would be devastating to Israel's economy and military. So long as they weren't attacked, they'd be fine, they'd survive at least. Their economy is growing at a brisk pace, but I don't doubt that their neighbors would take advantage of those difficulties.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Which I wouldn't care about, really, except that it's used to try and delegitimize the real owners of Israel, which is the people of Israel.
That is not a fact. It's your opinion.
No, it's fact.
In your opinion. The concept is easily disputable.
So you think that your ability to dispute something makes it not a fact?
I didn't say that. If it makes you happy then "In my opinion that is not a fact. In your opinion it is a fact." My point is that what you take to be fact is not generally taken to be fact. You assume it as fact and then debate as if it were true and everyone else is just misled. It's impossible to debate ethics with you over this situation because your assumptions allow you to justify almost anything to protect your land.
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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1. Anything that Israelis do to Palestinians must be justified, for if it were not, the supremely efficient and moral justice system of Israel would clamp down on the offender.
2. Anything the Palestinians do to Israelis comes from an unreasoning and groundless hatred of Israelis and the Jewish people as a whole, for which they should expect to be punished (collectively as necessary), as they are evil people.
3. Anything that claims otherwise must be the result of Arab propoganda.
4. Anyone who thinks otherwise must be an Arab sympathizer, and if Israeli in origin, a traitor.
...
I do believe my hope for peace in Israel is at an all-time low.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Israel is in a tough situation. They take a lot of hits, but when they do hit back they pack a wallop, and people get hurt....and collateral damage occurs.
Add to that the fact that their enemy uses large civilian populations as bases of aggression to make being hit back a lot harder, and there you have it.....
....no matter what they do they are screwed.
I honestly don't know what I would do if I was there myself.
All I know is there seems to be a surplus of hate on both sides....but if I had to choose a side to win it would be Israel, hands down.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Destineer: This must be the most fruitless thread I've seen in years.
I think it's one of the most interesting threads in years.
I just read through the whole thing now, and I just want to say that I think Lisa argued her position better than she got credit for and did not deserve the insults sent her way by Katharina and a few others before. I didn't see her being insulting or hostile until she was being accused of it.
Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Those who actually commit acts of violence against Israel, or attempt to do so, should be killed. Yes. Without exception. ... Those who propagandize for them and those who allow themselves to be used as human shields are not the same. We should not intentionally harm them, but neither do we have any responsibility for their well being .... And yes, it is a national effort. It is supported by their grassroots. It is not a bunch of bad guys in a junta with helpless peons who can't stop the madness. ... Our responsibility is to protect our people. If protecting one of our lives costs one hundred of theirs, that's cheap.
quote: Everyone has the ability to choose to do good. It is evil to target civilians. A human being who does so, or who praises someone who does so, is embracing evil.
Such a fine line, who is and isn't evil.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Destineer: This must be the most fruitless thread I've seen in years.
I think it's one of the most interesting threads in years.
I just read through the whole thing now, and I just want to say that I think Lisa argued her position better than she got credit for and did not deserve the insults sent her way by Katharina and a few others before. I didn't see her being insulting or hostile until she was being accused of it.
Kat might have been a little provacative, but given Lisa's history with this subject, and her actions in the past, I don't think it was unfair.
My problem with Lisa's debate style is that she often represents opinions as unerring, unassailable facts. When you try to disagree with her, you're generally wrong, but she goes further than just saying you're wrong. She'll call people liars, she'll label vast groups with moral absolutes like good and evil. She's a fanatic. There's nothing inherently offensive or insulting in the term fanatic, and I think it's a very accurate word to describe her feelings towards a place she doesn't live, but still has a clear connection to.
I've mostly shied away from engaging her in this thread (hooray, personal growth for Lyrhawn!), because I've found over the years of debating this subject with her that it's not a debate of merits, it's a largely a debate of faith, with a sprinkling of current events mixed in. She'll never change her mind, and she'll rarely even listen to opposing viewpoints before soundly denouncing them. Thus the only real reason to argue with her is because sometimes poking the bear is just plain fun; it's interesting to see just how outlandish her statements can get before you call her on them and she tries to parse them into something less shocking.
Plus inevitably, any discussion about Israel and Palestine on Hatrack becomes enmeshed in her rhetoric. Once she wades into the fray, most substantive conversation ends.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Kat - I'd just like to state for the record that Lisa began this thread (in my opinion) in a relatively guarded, rational way and that insults did not enter into the equation until you went on the attack.
As much as I don't agree with Lisa's views on Israel most of the time, I have to agree with her in this thread that you're not bringing anything to the discussion but instigation, kat, and that there was far less hostility before you started in on Lisa.
I don't know why I feel compelled to say this - especially as I've pretty much sworn off posting in Israel/Palestine threads (though I still read them) - but I couldn't help but notice when the tenor of the conversation changed.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Well, MightyCow, I won't say such a person is totally, irreversibly evil, but I am quite comfortable in saying that it is evil to endorse and cheer on the deliberate targeting of civilians for murder.
-----
quote:More because a relatively small minority with an identical mindset could easily stifle others' efforts.
Here's the thing you appear to be missing (at least in this conversation, anyway): a small minority stifling and even destroying outright the majority's option to take another stance isn't the Israeli problem, it's the Palestinian problem.
Seriously. Any individual hate-filled lunatic among the Palestinians can break any sort of peace or negotiations at any time. But instead of suggesting that the Palestinians themselves be responsible for controlling their own people, the common suggestion-even unmentioned-is that Israel should just, I don't know, 'tolerate' a 'few' suicide bombers.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rivka, I know you hate these threads, but if you're going to pop in and comment on user's posts, I wish you would say something about what Lisa says and the way she posts. I can't imagine that you approve of her calls for ethnic cleansing, but the silence isn't helpful. If you're going to comment, comment on everyone's. Do you approve of her actions and words? If not, how do you disagree?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Nope. You don't get to tell me what to comment on.
And silence is the most helpful way to deal with many of Lisa's posts. I recommend it.
The last few times I explained which of Lisa's comments I agreed with and which I did not was too nuanced -- I ended up getting attacked by both sides. I am not going to claim I disagree with everything she says (I certainly don't), and I am not going to join the cohort attacking every word she says either.
I found your posts in this thread worse -- considerably -- than hers. And that's saying something.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I think the ability to draw a nuanced line between ethnic cleansing and genocide is the only thing that made your post possible, Jeff. Unfortunately, I don't think that distinction actually can -- in practice -- be usefully made.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Even if I agreed with Lisa's goal, I don't think it could possibly be executed without such massive loss of life that actually carrying it out would be a significant human rights violation.
But people here have condemned Israel for not spending its own resources to support people who elected a political party whose official position calls for ethnic cleansing. In the last week, they have demanded that Israel give in to all the Palestinians territorial demands - including allowing millions of people who voted for the ethnic-cleansing-advocating party to move inside Israel's pre-1967 borders. They have refused every chance to say they would no longer seek Israel's destruction, promising only a 10-year truce - and that only if Israel gives in to all its demands.
People are demanding more of Lisa than they are of the elected government with whom Israel is supposed to negotiate.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I think the ability to draw a nuanced line between ethnic cleansing and genocide is the only thing that made your post possible, Jeff. Unfortunately, I don't think that distinction actually can -- in practice -- be usefully made.
The line isn't that nuanced. Even if I'm right that practically speaking one couldn't move the Palestinians without killing so many as to amount to the same wrong as genocide, Lisa's disagreement on that does not mean that she supports genocide.
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