posted
What you apparently don't remember, however, is this country doing exactly that, 170 years ago. Which seems to have gone quite well. What was your point, again?
There are any number of quite successful conquests in the history of the world; pointing to just one that failed rather spectacularly - and heck, it was a pretty close-run thing, at that; let Moscow fall in December 1941, and then try to land in France in 1944 - is not a good argument.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:What you apparently don't remember, however, is this country doing exactly that, 170 years ago. Which seems to have gone quite well. What was your point, again?
Oh no, I remember that quite clearly.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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What makes Mexican immigrants so differant from Cuban immigrints? one could even argue that Cuban nationals recieve better aid and standard of living than the northern Mexican populace. I was born and raised in Arizona, I grew up with friends who had to translate for thier parents who simply did not have the basic education necessary to read and write competently in spanish let alone learn a new language in addition to the difficult work they had to do to survive illegally here. Ofcourse there are things that bother me, such as the fact that the Mexican govt. watches its people grow ignorant and hungry, knowing that they will flee to America but will never relinquish thier patriotism, proven by many leaving families behind in Mexico and sending back as much money as possible. Billions of dollars are sent to Mexico from America, work done here, for here with the profits spent in a near dictatorship country, and not even Arizona's own John "Maverick" McCain would pretend to speak out against the oppression of the Mexican govt. on thier own people and the American south west.
Another pet peeve of mine is the foodstamps system, as noted it certianly makes it easier to stay on and make less money, openly deciding to stop advancing in society and leeching off of the others. But one thing many dont know is there is a twenty four hour fast track option for Mexican immigrants here, thusly treating them as people from a dire situation (which many of them are from) while American citizens can wait up to a month for assistance and only after spending a large amount of time in waiting rooms filling out forms. One of the most common complaints I hear from people who are trying to take care of themselves and thier children is that they cant get assistance when they have to work during the day, they have other things to do than wait three hours for a five minute meeting. While so many people who have no job and are unwilling to get a job have all the time in the world to go through the motions, AZ pays for thier medical, housing (of thier choice, no govt. housing here,) thier food and might even then give them additional money on thier EBT account to withdrawn to use as they wish.
The criminalization of being brown in the southwest is older than many may guess, and this current fad of blaming all of its faults on the ones who were so desperate that they would entrust thier wives and children to coyotes who are known for changing prices and doing unspeakable acts at will, this fad is just plain sick. Above I mentioned a problem with Arizona's assistance programs, but illegal immigrants did not write these documents, nor do I blame a parent with mortal fear for thier childrens health for taking advantage of every program presented, I blame the sycophants who draw our attention with pink underwear for convicts and graphs illustrating a drop in "reported" crime. Whole towns are known for nothing but junkies cooking drugs, a van is t-boned in an intersection and rolls three times but no one stops to cry for the dead in the van while news helicopter watches the police hunt down more than thirteen men that climbed out and ran. Ranches in the middle of nowhere with mexican slaves far from the eyes of society, men and women afraid to go back to a home that treated them worse. Identity theft is rampant as almost all is used to allow illegal immigrants to gain full paying work, only to pay a hefty percentage to check cashing stores who operate solely on the income of illegals and Americans who are trying to keep thier earnings from the govt. for various reasons.
In many ways the west is still wild, people still come here hoping to live as they choose without oppisition from thier nieghbors, but just to earn what they can and live. If Florida can accept every last Cuban that makes it to American soil and not burn to the ground whats to stop the south west?
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quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: What makes Mexican immigrants so differant from Cuban immigrints? one could even argue that Cuban nationals recieve better aid and standard of living than the northern Mexican populace.
One could argue anything. The standard of living in Cuba is not good. Average incomes are in the tens of dollars per month- and that money doesn't go very far. The standard of living is estimated by some to be below 1% of what it was 50 years ago- so while the situation is dire in Northern Mexico, it is not going to be better in Cuba, sorry.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Section 8 housing and food stamps are not limited in time frame benefits. Agreed, welfare is no way to live but welfare voters will not bite the hand that feeds them. Neither will recipients of government run healthcare or illegal aliens granted amnesty. The political considerations of the party in terms of a voting block, are more important than the reality of lifting people out of poverty and doing what is best for our nation and the people they claim to care about. Hence, progressive blocking and elimination of school voucher programs. Can't have DC ghetto kids going to school with the president's children, back to the hood and a 28% graduation rate (even if it costs more).
Continue to spin without answering the challenge I put to you. Otherwise I won't engage and I encourage others not to.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Section 8 housing and food stamps are not limited in time frame benefits. Agreed, welfare is no way to live but welfare voters will not bite the hand that feeds them. Neither will recipients of government run healthcare or illegal aliens granted amnesty.
yeah, all those recipients of government-run healthcare won't bite the hand that feeds them ... better healthcare than our system? and those illegal aliens sure do vote a lot. wow, this all makes so much sense!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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If you take off the rose colored glasses, you might be able to see that it is all about manipulation. Who do you think people are going to side with, the ones who give them things no strings attached, or the ones who expect them to actually do something to earn it?
Posts: 73 | Registered: Nov 2009
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Ha! I'm a snide analyst that calculates most timeframes of potential systemic improvement against the political idiocy and ignorant malleability of citizens. Does that get to be called "rose colored" thinking, now?
The issue is that some issues, such as health care, can't be easily boxed into "giving" versus "making them earn." By all worthwhile metrics, we already know that things work better if you just give people healthcare. It's just infuriating to people who dislike the concept that it's better for the government to just give some things.
A perfect example is schooling. I will side with the people who give education to your children, no strings attached. Do you think I'm siding with them because I'm a leech or a cheapskate?
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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No, thinking that the government is some benign entity that is going to step in and fix every thing does. The system can't be improved by a broken system.
Posts: 73 | Registered: Nov 2009
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quote:Originally posted by kanelock1: No, thinking that the government is some benign entity that is going to step in and fix every thing does. The system can't be improved by a broken system.
This entire position is predicated on an illusory standpoint inferred on the part of some.
I would have trouble actually finding a liberal — any liberal at all — who actually thinks that the government is 'a benign entity that is going to step in and fix everything.' Yes, it would be troublesome if people voted on that premise in numbers large enough to create a notable contingent. But since this illusory contingent of voters largely doesn't exist, you're knocking on a mentality which has no bearing on figuring out why people vote the way they do.
It's like strawmanning conservatives by saying that they vote the way they do because they "hate gays" — unsurprisingly, the truth is much more complicated
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ducking? Nothing but ducks and dodges between this post and my last. Anyone actually care to address the fact the the kind hearted progressives eliminated a program (conservative program) that cost $7k per poor black student to be sent to a private school in favor of $14k per in failing and dangerous public schools.
Maybe you're right, it's about fairness. Can't jeopardize any government teacher jobs and the teachers union is against the voucher program. It's unfair that only some get to go to the good schools. The universal, equal and fair failing govt system is more just.
The great equalizer is a good education. (Anyone care to argue that point) Can't have those blacks gettin' educated, they might grow up to be conservative.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Anyone actually care to address the fact the the kind hearted progressives eliminated a program (conservative program) that cost $7k per poor black student to be sent to a private school in favor of $14k per in failing and dangerous public schools.
I'd be happy to address this after you get done addressing the questions already put to you, which you are avoiding.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:If you take off the rose colored glasses, you might be able to see that it is all about manipulation. Who do you think people are going to side with, the ones who give them things no strings attached, or the ones who expect them to actually do something to earn it?
What rose-colored glasses? Y'all said or suggested that Democrats (or 'progressives', and freakin' damn, what will you guys try to turn into a bad word next?) were doing this at least in part to manipulate the people and buy voters.
I said that I was surprised to hear that apparently voter turnout amongst the poorest segments of our population was apparently high, high enough to merit massive catering to, as opposed to among the lowest in the nation. Rose colored glasses indeed.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Continue to spin without answering the challenge I put to you. Otherwise I won't engage and I encourage others not to.
Would you care to restate your challenge. Going back I see you flat out calling me a liar, which is fine....in that regard I wont waste my time trying to change your mind. I have not misrepresented myself here.
If you are concerned about my income, it increases every year as it has since my first job picking strawberries when I was 13 years old. I spent 5k this year on training courses and studied for months to pass yet more certification exams....guess what, next year I'll make 10k more because I improved myself. I've paid off 30k in student loans and worked 96 hours a week during the summer driving swathers and combines to help with college expenses. I went to a Catholic school on a "scholarship" that required me to work 16 hours per week during the school year...sometimes in concessions, sometimes cleaning bathrooms. In the summer they required 200 hours.
When it comes to taxes....my property,state and local taxes are more that 10k a year. I tithe to my Church which is more than my Federal Income tax. You probably wont consider a Christian charity a real charity though. If you are looking at total tax burden, of course not....too hidden and everywhere. Sales, car tags, phone, electric, gas, SS, Medicair, FICA, and whatever is already included in the price of everything you buy, no way. The average American works half the year for Uncle Sam....some work a little harder and pay a little more. But the welfare lady down the road bought a new (used) car with her 8k tax return, child tax credits are great. Must be nice to get a return greater than your income.....If there's a time limit it must be more than 5 years, that's how long she's been there. Daddy gone, lots of kids...nice kids.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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Forgive me...I forget your perspective, being European and all. I know many Americans are losing this belief, but here you can succeed and even become wealthy if you work hard enough. People are upset because we have a "post American" president who wants us to be fair and stagnant, like Europe.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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Continue to spin without answering the challenge I put to you. Otherwise I won't engage and I encourage others not to.
I went to a Catholic school on a "scholarship" that required me to work 16 hours per week during the school year...sometimes in concessions, sometimes cleaning bathrooms. In the summer they required 200 hours.
16 hours a week for a full-time student is nothing special. I did that all through my undergrad, and I graduated with 132 credit hours in 8 semesters.
Also, exactly what did your school requre 200 hours of during the summer? 200 hours of work a week? Multiply 24 times 7. It equals 168. There aren't 200 hours in a week.
If you're saying that they required 200 hours of work over 12 weeks of summer, big whoop. That's just not even worth mentioning.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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That was in high school, starting in 9th grade. I had other jobs to support myself. In high school I worked 40 hours a week. 16 for the school on the weekend, the rest at Taco Time, TCBY, a video store, a nursing home kitchen...whatever I could get.
In college I worked 96 hours a week in the summer and wrote a big fat check to the University in the Fall. I'm not bragging I just feel sorry for people who have accepted failure or mediocrity. It's a different mindset. If I seem cold and unsympathetic, it's because I believe in the American Dream. I'm upset because I see class warfare destroying that dream for my children. The white's are #3 in income in America by race. When minority immigrants come here and excel due to their hard work, I don't want to hear excuses from the native population. The difference is, they believe they can. "YES WE CAN" - "BELIEVE" Those words sound familiar don't they? In his context, those words were twisted to mean take from the evil rich. Even if that wealth comes from a hard working, minority, immigrant, small business owner. Once you enter a certain tax bracket you are no longer black, brown or white, you are green.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
As to how broken the welfare system is here in AZ, a new drug testing system has been added to keep people who are abusing illegal drugs from attaing assistance. Full write up here.
quote: "We don't want people who are abusing drugs to be on welfare," Kavanagh said, "because that means that the taxpayers are subsidizing and facilitating illegal-drug use."
All adult recipients must now fill out a new three-question statement on illegal-drug use to apply or reapply for DES benefits.
If answers on that statement provide "reasonable cause" of illegal-substance abuse, the department will notify the adult that they must complete a drug test within 10 days, at the state's expense.
At first I laughed when it hit the newspapers, and then I realized that my taxes paid for a room full of idiots to write up this poor excuse of a solution.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote: But the welfare lady down the road bought a new (used) car with her 8k tax return, child tax credits are great. Must be nice to get a return greater than your income.....If there's a time limit it must be more than 5 years, that's how long she's been there. Daddy gone, lots of kids...nice kids.
By all means, continue to take stereotypical anecdotes like this, project them onto the entire system, demand massive change because of that anecdotal experience, and insinuate that those disagreeing with you are either lazy, stupid, or unAmerican for doing so.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Well, actually the hope and change I and many other people voted for was to restore checks and balances, a respect for science, a renewed adherence to international conventions we agreed to, and some measure of sanity to our government.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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The previous election should tell you enough about why people vote. Why did Obama win? What was his main premise? Hope and change. How was he going to do this? By taking the wealth from people who actually worked for it, or from the EVIL CORPORATIONS, (you know, the ones who actually employ people) and dole it out to the poor, downtrodden masses. So, once again I ask, where is the motivation to better yourself when you have the leader of your nation telling you basically not to worry, he will fix it, by giving you what someone else has worked for? If that logic works for you than can I have your house, because I am tired of renting? As for evidence of peoples thought processes,I live in Michigan and a couple months back they were passing out I believe it was energy vouchers in Detroit. While interviewing people in line, they asked some of them where the money was coming from, and in response they said" I don't know, Obama. Obama money." No thought as to where it came from, so long as they got it. Now, who do you think they are going to vote for?
Posts: 73 | Registered: Nov 2009
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I know why I voted for him, and it didn't have anything to do with him taking money from 'people who worked for it' (as though everyone rich worked for it), or from 'EVIL CORPORATIONS' (as though taking money from corporations must always stem from ridiculous stereotypes like this).
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Forgive me...I forget your perspective, being I know many Americans are losing this belief, but here you can succeed and even become wealthy if you work hard enough.
"Can" being the operative word. Lots of people work plenty hard and never escape from poverty. Or get sick and end up there. Or lose their job due to downsizing...
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Where has President Obama told anyone that, kanelock? I'll ask for the first but probably not the last time: where has he said the far-right stereotyped liberal things you're saying he's said? He's not a hard guy to research, so I'm sure you can point to something in relatively short order without much difficulty.
This is an important question here, incidentally, though I doubt I'm the first to ask you to directly substantiate your claims. Are you going to be a hack like malanthrop, unwilling or unable to argue honestly and participate in a real discussion? Or are you going to be a thoughtful conservative who actually does something besides preach to your choir and behave as though they're the only sane, smart people left?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:If that logic works for you than can I have your house, because I am tired of renting? As for evidence of peoples thought processes,I live in Michigan and a couple months back they were passing out I believe it was energy vouchers in Detroit.
If you're renting and don't want to be, and live in Detroit, I cannot imagine why you have not bought a house. Surely cost is not a problem.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: He's not a hard guy to research, so I'm sure you can point to something in relatively short order without much difficulty.
So far nobody's even been able to pin down what country he was born in.
Posts: 431 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Yeah, the median home price for house purchases in Detroit a year ago was $7,500, and I doubt it has gone up since then.
Note, this is the median. That means half or more of houses sold in Detroit sold at that price or lower.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:So far nobody's even been able to pin down what country he was born in.
Well, yeah, Hawaii kinda settled that already, by providing proof of his birth and proof of the newspaper listing on the day he was born. But please, carry on with your conspiracy theory if you like. (Birther myths and easy refutations)
[ December 10, 2009, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
If you pay attention to anything other than the mainstream media, you can see many examples of this.How many times did he talk about the redistribution of wealth during the election? Do you honestly believe that this is not a manipulation of people based on class envy?
Posts: 73 | Registered: Nov 2009
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quote:If that logic works for you than can I have your house, because I am tired of renting? As for evidence of peoples thought processes,I live in Michigan and a couple months back they were passing out I believe it was energy vouchers in Detroit.
If you're renting and don't want to be, and live in Detroit, I cannot imagine why you have not bought a house. Surely cost is not a problem.
Note, I never said I live in Detroit, but thanks for the assumption.
Posts: 73 | Registered: Nov 2009
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Forgive me...I forget your perspective, being European and all. I know many Americans are losing this belief, but here you can succeed and even become wealthy if you work hard enough. People are upset because we have a "post American" president who wants us to be fair and stagnant, like Europe.
Actually, studies show that in Europe there is greater economic class mobility. In several European countries (also Canada), for all its supposed aristocratic roots, my wealth as an adult is less dependent on my parents starting place. So, for those looking to pursue the American dream of doing better then their fathers, might I suggest moving to Canada? Statistically, you are far more likely to succeed there.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:I never said I live in Detroit, but thanks for the assumption.
No, I suppose that's true. That said, if you live anywhere in Michigan, houses are available.
Once again my point goes unseen. It was not about if I could or could not by a house. It was more about the thought processes in the minds of some people. If a group of people are told over and over again that they have been kept down by another group, don't you think that some of those people will start believing that they are owed things? And when someone says their are going to redistribute the wealth to give them more, will not some of those people begin to expect it to be handed to them? I used that example to point out that the mentality of the "gimme, gimme" people is flawed. Your response seems to agree with me on that point. Am I wrong?
Posts: 73 | Registered: Nov 2009
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quote:If you pay attention to anything other than the mainstream media, you can see many examples of this.How many times did he talk about the redistribution of wealth during the election? Do you honestly believe that this is not a manipulation of people based on class envy?
OK, so you're a hack then. I suspected as much but couldn't be sure, because you're a new guy.`
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Mostly I saw him talking about the redistribution of wealth from people who gamed the system to cheat employees and investors, and the redistribution of wealth from corporate executives who run their companies into the ground while still pulling in multi-million dollar bonuses, and the redistribution of wealth from people who use every trick in the book to hide their income or exploit tax loopholes. I'm kind of OK with that kind of redistribution.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
kanelock1- I don't think that you have yet shown that there are people with that mentality yet. You have pointed to people you only know peripherally as examples, but who is to say what reality is.
For example, when I was on government aid, I had one nice maternity outfit (One of my wealthier friends lent it to me). I wore that one nice outfit for all my aid meetings. When I had my daughter, I dressed her in the nicest clothes she had (which were gifts from friends and family) whenever I went to my aid meetings. So, you may have looked at me and said, why is she getting aid when she can dress that nice, without realizing that I didn't spend a penny on those outfits. Which is why I am not willing to accept your examples- you are not in a position to know the full story.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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