quote:If you pay attention to anything other than the mainstream media, you can see many examples of this.How many times did he talk about the redistribution of wealth during the election? Do you honestly believe that this is not a manipulation of people based on class envy?
OK, so you're a hack then. I suspected as much but couldn't be sure, because you're a new guy.`
You call everyone that disagrees with you a hack, yet when asked a simple question your response is always to call into question the opinions and integrity of the questioner? I agree with not only mal, but my own opinion that no matter what I could show you, it would not matter, so what is the point?
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A large part of what I voted for hasn't happened yet, and I'm not terribly happy about it. That's different from someone else deciding (incorrectly) why I voted and then arguing against it.
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Is more of what you voted for happening than would have happened had someone else been elected in those elections where you voted for Obama?
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that is why I continue to specify SOME people. I cannot prove that is what people think. it is just my opinion. But to those who want me to PROVE my OPINION I ask; prove yours.
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quote:But to those who want me to PROVE my OPINION I ask; prove yours.
Sure. My opinion is that class warfare was not a major motivator among Obama voters. My "proof" is that I, as an Obama voter, don't know any other Obama voters who'd cite it as their motivation.
quote: You call everyone that disagrees with you a hack, yet when asked a simple question your response is always to call into question the opinions and integrity of the questioner? I agree with not only mal, but my own opinion that no matter what I could show you, it would not matter, so what is the point?
Well, now you're a hack and a liar. Go wander over to the Allen West thread, and you'll see me disagreeing with Porter, Tom, and Kmbboots all without calling any of them a hack. The reason is simple: they're not hacks, and you are.
The reason I'm calling you a hack is because you spout all kinds of stereotypical anecdotes and catch-phrases and political slogans, but when asked directly to cite the easiest possible one of them...you don't. That would be bad, but what puts you firmly over the line into the hack category is that not only didn't you actually substantiate your own claims (which, according to you, are obvious), but you continued on vaguely talking about what's said 'a lot' and suggested that you'd actually backed up your words.
The only good thing about being a hack is that you can stop at any time you like. You're welcome, at any moment, to actually quote President Obama's many, many speeches and say, "Here, this is what I'm talking about when I say Obama is encouraging a welfare state, he does it right here in this speech."
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quote:But to those who want me to PROVE my OPINION I ask; prove yours.
Another lie. This is not, in fact, what's happening. You're being asked here to prove President Obama has been saying what you say he's been saying. Unless you're claiming to have had private conversations with the man, that's a matter of public record and could, if you weren't a hack, be easily substantiated by you-particularly since you claim he says it a lot.
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You do realize for every conservative story of the Cadillac driving Welfare Mother, there is a Paris Hilton who is covered in unearned, undeserved wealth. (No, I don't mean her Fame-Money made after the airing of her sex-tape--I am referring to her inherited money).
There are the rich money men who's parents bought them MBA's, and who then proceed to screw up the good corporations that hard working folks put their effort into.
But its not them that lose their jobs, its the hard working folks who get laid off.
All this talk about the great Corporations who should be free to run wild reminds me of my days working for one. They wanted complete political and emotional employee loyalty, but offered no loyalty to the employees. When that happens people get mad, and when enough people get mad at something, they get to vote it all kinds of checks, balances, and taxes.
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quote:There are the rich money men who's parents bought them MBA's, and who then proceed to screw up the good corporations that hard working folks put their effort into.
You forgot to mention the ones who screw up the economy of entire countries.
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I know it is difficult to accept the profit motive of corporations. I listened to a senator explain how Cap and Trade will impact his district. He spoke with the CEO of a local ALCOA plant. Any idea how much electricity it takes to make aluminum? They do not want to move to another country but if the choice is to either go out of business or move to Mexico, they'll move. Raise taxes on the greedy corporations and to a point it will work. When it gets to a point where they have to decide between losing market share or moving to another country, they will move. The progressive will demonize them for moving due to the fact that progressive policies have forced them to move or close up shop. You forget, we are competing against countries where an employee might make $200 a month if he's lucky. Maybe the progressives should just take over all American business and make it illegal to outsource...problem is, they'd quickly run out of tax revenue to pay for the newly govt appropriated business.
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Blayne Bradley
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Or you know they could make the investment to switch to greener energies that don't cause as much of a footprint.
Now Obama HAS said words to the positive effect of redistributing the wealth from people who earned hundreds of millions by driving their companies to the ground and losing jobs to the people who lost their jobs, it was in Moore's 'Capitalism a Love Story'
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: ... The white's are #3 in income in America by race.
One of the races that has a higher median income is Asian. Whats the other one?
You failed to acknowledge the most discriminated demographic in America...Arabs.
"Median income for Arab American households in 1999 was $47,000 compared with $42,000 for all households in the United States. Close to 30 of Americans of Arab heritage have an annual household income of more than $75,000, while 22% of all Americans reported the same level of income. Mean income measured at 8% higher than that national average of $56,644"
Such as treaties regulating carbon emissions. So a company can't just move overseas to avoid carbon taxes, for instance.
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The UN want's the wealthy nations to pay subsidies to developing nations to offset the carbon emissions of devoloping nations. Technically, China is a "developing" nation despite the fact that it is the world's top polluter. So, America should borrow money from China to pay for progressive social programs and pay China since they are a developing nation with a very low standard of living. Maybe the Communist/Socialist Chinese govt should pay their people more and let them eat something other than rice. They do have a fair society thought, equal misery and a wealthy government.
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: - arabs are not the most discriminated (against) demographic in America
- china does not have 'equal misery' and actually demonstrates a massive degree of class disparity
- malanthrop is just talking now
When you go into an airport are you worried about the black guy? Are you suggesting that an Arab woman wearing a burka in America is less an object of objection than a black lady walking down the street?
Go ahead and google the standard of living in China, our primary financier. We are financed by slave owners. Demand your health care that is financed by a govt owned corporation where the workers don't even have electricity and indoor plumbing. When America balances it's budget, these things can be considered. Until then, a starving family, knee deep in mud for subsistance wages is paying for your "free" doctor visit.
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Blayne Bradley
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Just to clarify my "so?" was to Mal.
China's class disparity is actually according to the Gini Coefficient equivilent to that of the United States.
Also China technically pollutes less on a per capita basis then the United States AND is actually putting massive state investment into green technologies, green coal, and cleaner, safer nuclear power.
Next China actually does have 'classes' of rich, poor, and middle class, with those who are rich being mostly businessmen.
China is a developing nation because its GDP per capita is around 1700$ compared to USA's 50,000$ its economy while in Purchasing power parity terms is large and substantial still has much to go before it catches up.
Next the Chinese government IS giving money out, just not the way you think they're investing billions into developing the poorer regions of China, into greener more energy efficient technologies, and has abolished agricultural taxes on the farmers and agricultural workers.
While there are about 100 million people still living on one dollar a day to say that a majority of Chinese people diet consists of only rice is racist.
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If I were a country of my own, I would be the greenest of all and have the highest per capita income.
They pollute less per capita because a large percentage of their population doesn't even have electricity....China is still the #1 polluter.
They are a country of elites. If only the wealthiest 10% of Americans owned cars and had electricity, would you use the same argument?
Sorry for my racist rice comment. Their diet is only 50% rice, the rest is whatever they can scrounge up. I hear bugs and rats are quite popular there....people need protein.
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Blayne Bradley
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Your ****ing racist. Can someone ban him!?
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Tom, I appreciate your response and though I may see things differently, I respect your opinion. As I stated in a previous post, that is what makes this country great. I realize that politics are a hot subject, and it is easy to get carried away. I have said for years that I DO NOT try to convince others to believe what I believe to be 100% fact. What I try to do is show people that there is another point of view. I admit that, when faced with ANYONE who believes that their way is the only way, no matter what side of the fence they are on I take an almost instant distrust of them, as I truly believe that the world is not black and white. Am I a conservative? Yes. Yet in some ways I am just as liberal as almost anyone. If the fact that I cannot bring myself to agree with a group of people that are trying to fundamentally change the country that allowed them to rise to the positions that they are in because they say it isn't fair, I ask you to think about this, if America is so unfair, how did a woman become Speaker of the House? How did a poor black child become President? That is all I have to say.
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Blayne Bradley
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Because its unfair to the point that the people elected such people into positions of office to make things fair?
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"Per Capita" arguments concerning China are flawed. If Bill Gates moved into my home town the per capita income would be the highest in the nation. The same person who would use a per capita Co2 argument in defense would use a per capita income argument to prove victimization of economic justice. They are the poorest and therefore produce the least CO2. Are you asking me to admire a slave with a small carbon footprint?
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Blayne Bradley
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Racist. For one thing China doesn't practice slavery, or serfdom.
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Btw, rakeesh. If you go to youtube you can see all of his speeches. Not that it matters, as you would probably say they are lies also. What is the point of trying to show you evidence when you would not believe it any way. As you say, I am obviously a liar. May the hope and change work out for you. I for one will not hold my breath. Have a wonderful day.
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Sorry, I probably should have said that my interpretation is clouded by my paranoid, extreme right wing mind. Wrong choice of wording. Thanks Matt.
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Is this faux self deprecation just your way of saying that you can't find the quotes that support your claims?
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Racist. For one thing China doesn't practice slavery, or serfdom.
Your a racist.
Very nice of you to use language in such a way. Serfdom is a word from a different country and doesn't apply to China. Of course China doesn't have serfs or slaves, they do not know such a word....does it matter?
Similarly, only the Congress of the United States can create laws and levy taxes according to the constitution. Hence, prohibition against alcohol was a constitutional amendment. Congress voting on a constitutional amendment was the correct way to go about regulating alcohol. They have learned their lesson well and do not want to be constrained by such things as "laws" and "taxes" limited to congressional approval. Now we have beurocratic administrations that create "regulations" and "fees" thus bypassing the constitutional limits of "laws" and "taxes". Today, banning alcohol would be so much easier, no constitutional amendment necessary, the Food and Drug Administration could just regulate it. Just as Carbon Emissions has a tough time passing via cap and trade through Congress and the will of the people, the Environmental Protection Agency can regulate it.
This is what happens when we elect lawyers instead of the common man, business people. They understand the constitutional limits of "taxation" but can create an organization that can impose "fees". They understand the constitutional constraints on the imposition of "laws" but they can create an administation that can impose "regulations". Call it what you want, a tax is a tax, a law is a law, a serf is a serf (even if the native language doesn't include serf). A fee costs the consumer the same as a tax and a regulation is as binding as a law.
The American people haven't realized that the executive branch has stripped all power from the other branches of government. There are no more check and balances. Which is good so long as you agree with the president......ready for BushII in 2012?
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: [QUOTE] [qb] Very nice of you to use language in such a way. Serfdom is a word from a different country and doesn't apply to China. Of course China doesn't have serfs or slaves, they do not know such a word....does it matter?
Oh lord, the magic never ends with your grasp of the language.
Tell me, does the fact that the word for "teacher" in Spanish, "Profesor(a)," also means what "professor" means in English prove that there are no "teachers" in Spanish speaking countries? And what about Czech/Slovak? "Lektor" means instructor, but it also means "assistant professor."
Do the vagaries of language cancel the actual real world similarities between people's jobs? I suppose your rationale tells us that since "Banana" is an English word, Chinese people don't have Bananas? What about the people there who can speak English? Are they allowed to have bananas?
I suppose the only consolation would be that they don't have the same word for "troll," so maybe they don't have any. "Tool" either, as it occurs to me.
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quote:Btw, rakeesh. If you go to youtube you can see all of his speeches. Not that it matters, as you would probably say they are lies also. What is the point of trying to show you evidence when you would not believe it any way. As you say, I am obviously a liar. May the hope and change work out for you. I for one will not hold my breath. Have a wonderful day.
No no no, kanelock, that's not how it works.
"He says it all the time, it's obvious, can't you people see?" is what you said. But when asked point-blank, "OK, show us where he said it. It should be easy, since it's so obvious, and he says it all the time, right?" And your response was...deafening silence.
You're not really trying to change the minds of people. Folks doing that actually make, y'know, an effort. What you're doing is looking for a choir to preach to.
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: - arabs are not the most discriminated (against) demographic in America
- china does not have 'equal misery' and actually demonstrates a massive degree of class disparity
- malanthrop is just talking now
When you go into an airport are you worried about the black guy? Are you suggesting that an Arab woman wearing a burka in America is less an object of objection than a black lady walking down the street?
If I didn't know for sure by now that you didn't genuinely think you know what you were talking about, I'd swear you were having me on. Regardless, arabs are not the most discriminated against demographic in the united states. Even openly gay guys have it worse than them, as well as transgendered people. Who I'm most worried about in an airport isn't a measure of that, it's just an anecdote. You just have no idea what you're talking about, as usual, and still feel yourself possessed of the need to talk as though you had anything resembling a worthwhile understanding of any of this.
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quote:Originally posted by kanelock1: You call everyone that disagrees with you a hack, yet when asked a simple question your response is always to call into question the opinions and integrity of the questioner? I agree with not only mal, but my own opinion that no matter what I could show you, it would not matter, so what is the point?
Ah, the time honored "up yours" when asked for substantiation of statements made.
There is no faster way to deflate one's credibility.
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It's pretty obvious "kanelock1" the same person who has been floating around here for months switching from alt to alt. Wasn't it "GinaG" not long ago? I'm sure there have been others, but the name escapes me. The stunning lack of competence and the conservative victim mentality is about the same.
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quote:It's pretty obvious "kanelock1" the same person who has been floating around here for months switching from alt to alt.
I don't see what good that sort of speculation does. If s/he's an alt, s/he's an alt. Shouldn't matter.
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oriinoco, you don't know me, yet you keep insisting that I am an alt. I assume this means alternate identity. you are soooooo wrong ,but in your infinite wisdom, you will never admit it, so once again, what is the point. As for the "evidence", my BELIEF is based on my INTERPRETATION OF WHAT IS SAID along with the ACTIONS OF HIM AND OTHERS IN THE ADMINISTRATION. That is why it is pointless to show you "proof". You would never interpret it the same way as I do, because YOU do not want to see it. Or do you need to see proof of that to?
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quote:my BELIEF is based on my INTERPRETATION OF WHAT IS SAID along with the ACTIONS OF HIM AND OTHERS IN THE ADMINISTRATION
Please provide a quote of Obama saying something that you interpret to mean what you're saying it means, and then explain why you interpret it that way.
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Ideally several quotations. You have said that it was a prominent theme of his campaign, and what got him elected. These quotations you allege should be all over the place. There are websites full of quotations from Obama, this should be easy for you. After all, you've already seen the quotations (or you wouldn't be saying they exist, right?), so you can just scan through until you see the ones you remember.
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Tom, I think you're talking to an angry 14 year old who hasn't figured out the difference between belief and opinion.
KaneLock- I think you're an alt and a 14 year old (maybe 15) based on my interpretation of what you said, along with your actions on this forum.
Let your last post serve as the basis for this opinion. Your writing style is suggestive of someone without a great deal of analytical experience or expressive range. Now, it will be easy for you to counter my interpretation with the actual facts- and you'll have to have a little faith that I'll believe you when you tell the truth, rather than go on believing what I already believe. The problem with everything you've said so far is that it shows absolutely zero faith in your own ability to form a sincere argument or project the smallest amount of sincerity.
I think you have probably been victimized in some way- but it did not start here. Here you have projected your victimhood, and invited others to ridicule you further. But your actions, and everything you have said, without exception, has invited ridicule- not just tempted it, but blatantly invited it. I'm sorry if you can't see that.
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Thank you Tom. not sure how to get the link, as my computer knowledge is pretty basic. One specific quote that comes to mind is in a speech to the SEIU in which he states that their mission is his mission. couple that with the fact that the head of the seiu has, according to the white houses on released information, visited the white house nearly 30 times. also, in my mind, it seems a little odd that EVERYTHING that he wants to do HAS to be done NOW. EVERYTHING is a CRISIS. I believe it was the TARP bill that we were told, pass it NOW, or else. and yet, once it was passed it took him 4 days to sign it? That seems strange to me.
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quote: One specific quote that comes to mind is in a speech to the SEIU in which he states that their mission is his mission
Your goal is to prove that this was a major theme of his campaign. Ideally, you will look for quotes from his campaign to back this up. Try Google.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Tom, I think you're talking to an angry 14 year old who hasn't figured out the difference between belief and opinion.
KaneLock- I think you're an alt and a 14 year old (maybe 15) based on my interpretation of what you said, along with your actions on this forum.
Wrong again! Btw, last time I checked, opinion was based upon belief, though as a 14 year old(I'm 37) I could be mistaken. I am at least willing to admit that.
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Vague statements of support for a supporting organization made up of American citizens, whose putative mission is
quote:belief in the dignity and worth of workers and the services they provide and dedicated to improving the lives of workers and their families and creating a more just and humane society.
Noooo! He's going to institute socialism!
You are no doubt going to assert that workers and the services they provide having dignity and worth, that improving the lives of workers and their families, and that creating a more just and humane society are sekrit code words for socialism. But you're going to have to prove Obama meant that, instead of just a vague statement of solidarity with what, interpreted any sane way, are completely unobjectionable principles.
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