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Here's the deal Rakeesh, you've said you agree with me, but can't get past your impression of what I said, and insist that not only do I address it, but I address it from your understanding.
You get bogged down in this tiny little micro arguments of personality and completely loose sight of the big picture. For instance, it was not my idea that a doctor be there for the briss, and the fact that we agree that it is reasonable to have a licensed doctor there for a minor surgery. You are stuck on "admit you are presumptuous"...and you turn the discussion into an adversarial contest.
You spin nearly everything I say into..."this is what you really mean" and none of it is good. And I don't care what you think any more. There are plenty of good people here who actually are interested in the exchange of ideas instead of the mindless arguments you drag me into.
Go ahead, tell me what I'm really doing/not doing. I don't care what you think anymore. Really. You aren't a "bad" person, but this isn't a tennis match and there is no score or out of bounds or winner or looser.
And to be brutally honest, I feed into the fire as much as you do, and I need to do better.
So here goes. Sa'eed's "retraction" wasn't as much of a retraction as it could/should have been. That being said, I feel he was trying to make a point about that study he furnished in the OP, which basically never got discussed.
When it comes to what Jews find acceptable or not, I don't care. Does that mean I'm a bit insensitive to religious matters. Yes it does. Does that mean that my opinion should have no weight in a discussion of what should or shouldn't happen when it comes to public safety and religion. No, it doesn't.
Everyone decides for themselves what is okay in the eyes of god or not, and anyone who tells you what you must do to be good in the eyes of god is presumptuous. I simply spoke for myself and my beliefs. I also spoke of my belief that Jews could handle a tiny bit of change.
We here on discussion boards speak of our beliefs and how we think the world should work. To a certain extent it is all presumptuous, but mostly it is a place for us to share our beliefs and change them in ourselves and others through growth.
I have grown, and seen other posters grow here. Perhaps Sa'eed isn't one of them, but by damn I will give him every chance to improve himself and sharpen his mind on the hatrack whetstone.
I can't say as I've ever seen you admit to being wrong, or embrace a new idea. From you I've seen nothing but a battle for every inch of turf in what can only be called a war of words. And I no longer want to fight. You want to chat, or discuss or even disagree that is fine, we can do that, but I will not battle with you, especially over trivial minutia when we agree on the actual topic at hand.
Oh yea, and Lisa's post is hostile and I reported it without commenting because I didn't think for a second that she would welcome any comments as the sheer negative inappropriateness of her post can only lead to fighting.
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Wanting it to be a requirement that a doctor be present, I agree with. Saying to a religious group, "This won't change who you guys are," I don't. It's especially silly and objectionable-not to a huge degree or anything-because we could just as easily *ask*.
The bits about, "Jews have suffered plenty, so this won't be a big deal," was just...strange. It's like, so, because they've gotten the shaft throughout history we can just do as we like with 'em now? No, I don't think that's what you meant. But it *is* what your words pointed to. In that sense it's quite a lot like the discussion on rape not long ago. Over and over again, for quite awhile, you operated on your *personal* definition, used that in disagreeing with others, and when they disputed it used your own personal definition as a rebuttal. In a similar sense to you saying to Jews, "This isn't a big deal," without *checking*. That you were ignorant of the topic -not an insult, just a descriptor-only made it stranger and more confusing.
As for chancing my mind about things or admitting I was mistaken, well it's silly to get into a contest about that. I can only say that I have, I'm not going to thump my chest on it or anything. But just at-a-thought, some issues I have changed my mind about or reconsidered here over the years and years I've been hanging around: capital punishment, abortion, posthumous baptism, proselytizing, just to name a few. I haven't actually discussed a wide variety of things with you, though. And for all your (frequent) complaints about being judged on what you say, you also want people to judge you on what you *meant* to say.
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As for Lisa, yeah, pretty foul. Lends some unpleasant credibility, on the micro scale at least, to Sa'eed's past claims about Jews not just thinking they're the chosen people but superior in secular ways too. But I've sort of lost hope over quite a long time that she'll actually be reprimanded for that sort of thing. Other than perhaps privately and ineffectually.
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I still can't seem to get through to you...there is a difference between the two statements:
A. I think the Jews can handle it, heck they handled a lot worse.
B. This won't change who you guys are.
A is me speaking my opinion, B is you saying that I am telling an entire people what they will do. All on a topic we agree on!
In an attempt to try and avoid fighting, could use just use the quote function and use my words instead of putting false quotation marks around your version of what you think I said please. I mean, why do you have to rephrase everything I say, what is the reason for it? It causes a lot of problems and anger and it just isn't needed.
If you disagree with my opinion, then simply state that you disagree and why. This is why I say you strawman me, this is why I've told you to bite me in the past...here is an example of how you could do it which would cause no friction:
"I, Rakeesh, disagree with this statement: ]quote[ Original statement ]/quote[ And here is why..."
I'm glad you have changed your mind about stuff. I don't think we disagree about much of this stuff when it comes to substance but we end up fighting tooth and nail over tiny details which in the end derail the conversation and are truly irrelevant.
quote:And for all your (frequent) complaints about being judged on what you say, you also want people to judge you on what you *meant* to say.
You add these little zings at me nearly every post...you're the one who talked about punching people so is clearly the angry one, you're the one who complains frequently, you're the one who ignores questions which are inconvenient to your case, you're the one with a habit of assumptions...these personal digs need to stop. You need to stop making this into a place to air a vendetta against me.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: The Jews are a tough people, and they have had to deal with change throughout their entire history, and I'm sure that including some antiseptic and having a doctor look over the should of the Rabi (or whichever is his name is, can't remember) will not offend God or fundamentally change who they are.
Just for fun, and because it's not enough to say you said something you've said but to actually *prove* it or be accused of strawmanning...there. You said what I pointed out. From your position of substantial ignorance on Judaism in this respect, you then go on to say, "This won't change y'all."
If you are unhappy having that pointed out, *maybe you shouldn't have said it to begin with*. Or you could *still* ask instead of standing by your assumption. This isn't even like the opt-in/drunk discussion. Here you're *explocitly saying* something, while claiming you didn't say it. Getting really pissy and whiny about having it pointed out, too.
As for your rubric for responding to you, allow me to quote you again:
quote:...live with it. Or just answer my questions. Or admit you don't. Or do whatever you want like I will do whatever I want.
In the past I didn't think you were actually *forgetting* (or lying) about what you'd actually said. But perhaps that's not the case. And, y'know, before you get angry or frustrated or whatever about that word 'lying', bear in mind that you've accused *me* of the same repeatedly-for claiming you said what you in fact said, as I've now shown even to *your* standards you did say.
And for the 'personal digs', well hey: if you don't want to hear it, don't say things like, "He's cute when he's angry..." (do I need to use the quote feature for that, or will you deny having said it?) and not expect to have your own little funny episodes with temper and violent rhetoric mentioned.
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Nice quote work...thanks for that...keep up the good work! Do you think that pain killer and a doctor's observation would fundamentally change the Jewish people Rakeesh? Because I doubt you do, but just want to make sure it's known that you consider my statement to be assumptive. Well, it's what I think, draw your own conclusion. What do you think about it?
I admit I got some jabs in there as well...and declare that A) I'm sorry for them, and B) I'm done with them.
Hopefully this ends this particular bit of the Rakeesh/Stone_Wolf_ show, and now we can move on now. If not, that's okay too, but I'll refrain from participating, maybe that will solve the problem.
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I'll add that I indeed said that I didn't think it would fundamentally change the Jews...so I can understand some of your frustration, but here is the beauty of actually quoting me...I don't argue when you do...so, sorry for the frustration...please try and keep adjectives like "pissy" and "whiny" out of our talks, as they just aren't a nice thing to say.
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quote:I don't know how it compares to having a foreskin (Stone_Wolf could answer that more accurately, since he's experienced both)...
Syn...trust me when I tell you that until you have children, you don't know what you are going to do. I only became a father 20 months ago, and I had planned on what I was going to do and not do most of my life. All my well made plans went out the window the second my son was born. And like scholarette said, exhaustion can be a major factor in your decision making process.
I don't expect you to agree here, but I would really like you to do this: Remember what you are saying now, when you have kids, and then come back and give us a report. It might be a bit different then you imagined.
Please do not say this. First of all, it seems condescending, and second of all, do you even know my history and my reasons for being so obsessed with wanting to break a certain cycle? I don't hate my mother, but she was hitting me with a belt when I was having chemo between the ages of 2-5. I'm lucky I didn't get raised by her exclusively. She loves me. I know she does, and so does my father, but they were young when they had me, she was abused most of her childhood and nearly passed such things on to me and actually said I didn't have it so bad. Can you see why I'd want to try to do better? This is a huge issue because it's not just about a nip of skin or cry it out but about actively wanting to do better and setting out to do it no matter what...
I should also point out that Japan was doing pretty well and they never circumcised at all. China too, but they foot binding thing.
quote:Originally posted by JanitorBlade: I think less discussion about civilizations, cultures, and religions is warranted.
Also, a little less outrage couldn't hurt either.
Why? It's the appropriate response to what was said.
When you let these personalities post after years of ensuring we know who they are, you get the outrage.
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Syn, I'm sorry you have had those things happen in your young life, and I don't mean to sound condescending. Some of the surprises which come with parenthood are, well, indescribably good. But surprises none the less.
I'd bet on you vs large odds that you will do better then your parents. Again, that being said, expect surprises.
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quote:Originally posted by JanitorBlade: I think less discussion about civilizations, cultures, and religions is warranted.
Also, a little less outrage couldn't hurt either.
Why? It's the appropriate response to what was said.
When you let these personalities post after years of ensuring we know who they are, you get the outrage.
You misunderstand, I'm saying that what seems to be causing this conversation to jump the tracks is discussion along the lines of, "My culture/religion is better than your culture/religion."
Also, I am not saying that when a poster says something beyond the pail outrage is unwarranted, only that outrage rarely serves to keep a conversation civil.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I'll add that I indeed said that I didn't think it would fundamentally change the Jews...so I can understand some of your frustration, but here is the beauty of actually quoting me...I don't argue when you do...so, sorry for the frustration...please try and keep adjectives like "pissy" and "whiny" out of our talks, as they just aren't a nice thing to say.
Something else that ain't a nice thing to say: repeatedly suggesting I'm being dishonest for suggesting you've said *things you actually said*.
Strawmanning, false quoting, putting words in your mouth are just a few of the things you had to say on the subject. It's not the first time that's happened, either. But, well, you 'understand my frustration' so it's all good, right?
Naw. Suggesting someone was being dishonest when they make an accusation that's factual is itself dishonest. Or incredibly forgetful, at first. *That* has been the common factor in discussing things with you, from topics such as torture, rape, and now circumcision of all things. This is just the most overt it's been.
As for fundamentally changing, well since you ask nope, I think it probably wouldn't, mostly because I knew already that many mohels are *already* doctors. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohel That's just a *guess* on my part, though. I don't actually know. I wouldn't just pooh-pooh it, though, justifying the assumption by of all things how frequently Jews have gotten screwed. (In addition to mentioning that before, I've *also* directly quoted you saying that, so I don't feel the need to do so again. To preempt possible-likely?-claims of not having said that.)
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I don't mean to sound contrary here JanitorBlade, but why issue a global piece of advice like that when only one poster made such ridiculous and biased claims? And then an equally global administration against us responding (appropriately) to that outrageous post? I do not understand your methods.
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Fun fact that not many people know: The "pale" in the phrase "beyond the pale" refers to fences. Pales are the stake parts of wooden fences (like "impale") so Pale came to mean the part enclosed within a fence. A famous Pale was one in Ireland. Inside was the part of Ireland that was entirely subject to England. "Beyond the pale" were scary, barbaric* Irish.
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Rakeesh: So, even down to the detail level we agree. How nice. Maybe we can start agreeing in positive terms instead of fighting about it.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I don't mean to sound contrary here JanitorBlade, but why issue a global piece of advice like that when only one poster made such ridiculous and biased claims? And then an equally global administration against us responding (appropriately) to that outrageous post? I do not understand your methods.
I didn't take any sort of administrative action against anybody. I merely indicated how certain elements could change so as to facilitate conversation.
I haven't chosen to censure anybody in particular at this point.
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Forgive me for the word choice...I was using the word "administration" as what you said, not as any particular action.
My point (which I seem to be communicating poorly) is why not edit/delete the one post which is clearly causing the issue and then specifically tell that poster to not post like that instead of telling everyone in general what would be helpful?
Or to put it another way, why use a bomb when you could use a scalpel?
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I'm talking about how you had a ton of so-called experts in the past saying this is how you raise kids, put them on schedules, don't hold them, don't breastfeed, ect. Most of these folks were men who probably never held a baby, yet they were trying to tell people how to raise perfect children...
First of all, there's no such thing as a perfect child. Each one is a whole bundle of problems.
But seriously, let me point out that you yourself sometimes come across very similarly. On more than one topic, you're very eager to tell people (IN ALL CAPS, EVEN ) how they should be raising their children, despite a relative lack of experience or expertise.
Not that you're not allowed to have opinions or feel passionately about any subject, but if you want to actually convince people instead of just talking to make yourself feel better, it's a good idea to keep in mind how you might be coming across to others.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Fun fact that not many people know: The "pale" in the phrase "beyond the pale" refers to fences. Pales are the stake parts of wooden fences (like "impale") so Pale came to mean the part enclosed within a fence. A famous Pale was one in Ireland. Inside was the part of Ireland that was entirely subject to England. "Beyond the pale" were scary, barbaric* Irish.
*Though likely uncircumcised.
This is the most interesting thing Ive read in this topic. Its reached its zenith, and now I can ignore it altogether.
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quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: Lisa, how is a person or a couple thinking for themselves and possibly not agreeing with every part of judaism a problem? Im trying to not be antagonistic, this idea just bothers me. Im leaving my other problems with that post alone.
Are you sure you want me to answer this?
If you felt the urge to censor youself once already, yes.
Censor myself? Maybe. Anyway, the answer is that Jewish law isn't optional. It is obligatory for every Jew, whether the person recognizes the obligation or not. Cardinal friggin' Lustiger is obligated by Jewish law. Or was. Death gets you off.
Now... some people will say that if a law isn't enforced, it isn't a law. And they're entitled to that opinion, even though they're wrong.
Jewish parents who don't have their sons circumcised are Bad Jews.
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Forgive me for the word choice...I was using the word "administration" as what you said, not as any particular action.
My point (which I seem to be communicating poorly) is why not edit/delete the one post which is clearly causing the issue and then specifically tell that poster to not post like that instead of telling everyone in general what would be helpful?
Or to put it another way, why use a bomb when you could use a scalpel?
I'm really asking btw.
We're talking about a thread, the very title of which calls Jews barbarians, and none of you seem troubled by that. So no, I'm not going to apologize for what I said.
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If it's 'obligatory,' would you fix that by making it a law, if you were in charge? Force jewish parents to have their children circumcized, or force uncircumcised jews to be circumcized even if they're unwilling?
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Lisa: the title is one person's opinion, and not widely shared and I find highly suspect that you can rationalize bad behavior by pointing a finger at Sa'eed (of all people, especially by your comments) and say, he started it.
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Not to mention that people having problems with it (including myself) cropped up instantaneously in addition to the description of the title provided is wrong, so
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It sounds like you accompany "bad jew" with "bad person" and that is very sad. Thats all I have to say that I can say politely and without inflaming myself, and I am not going to interact any further within this line of conversation. I hope you understand that I do not mean to be disrespectful, just unwilling to be unproductive.
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: If it's 'obligatory,' would you fix that by making it a law, if you were in charge? Force jewish parents to have their children circumcized, or force uncircumcised jews to be circumcized even if they're unwilling?
Not today, no. But surely you know that after the Messiah comes, all Jews will be living according to the Torah. Or rather, surely you're aware that this is what we think. And yes, that'll include the Jewish system of religious courts.
Jewish law holds that the first obligation of circumcision is for the father to circumcise his son (by agent, in most cases). If the father doesn't, the responsibility falls to the boy. If he doesn't, the responsibility falls to the community.
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quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: It sounds like you accompany "bad jew" with "bad person" and that is very sad.
But I don't. That's your incorrect misreading of what I said. I was pretty clear, and I think my history on Hatrack shows that if I'm saying something, I don't just make implications; I come right out and say it. If I wanted to say they were bad people, I would have said that. But they aren't, so I didn't.
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: Thats all I have to say that I can say politely and without inflaming myself, and I am not going to interact any further within this line of conversation. I hope you understand that I do not mean to be disrespectful, just unwilling to be unproductive.
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What 'responsibility' falls to the community to obligate circumcision? You don't make it sound like they have the right to circumcise someone by force.
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Wait a second... I did not exactly say outlaw it...
Though... Mostly I wish people would STOP doing it altogether on their own, but I don't understand why not doing it would make someone a Bad Jew... What if it were a mother who had reasonable concerns about the pain factor?
And why I am on the extreme side... I think I am a bit cranky about that now... Mostly... because Lisa tends to be a slight be harsh... and I don't think I'm really harsh... am I? There's things I don't agree with though, but I empathized more with the kid going through that. *shudder*
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Syn: Yes, Lisa can be harsh. You don't come off as harsh, but you do come off as judgmental at times, naive at others (at least to me).
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Not in the same way as Lisa, but yeah, when you're passionate about something (and it seems that you rarely post about anything unless you are), you usually come across as pretty extreme.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Wait a second... I did not exactly say outlaw it...
Though... Mostly I wish people would STOP doing it altogether on their own, but I don't understand why not doing it would make someone a Bad Jew... What if it were a mother who had reasonable concerns about the pain factor?
And why I am on the extreme side... I think I am a bit cranky about that now... Mostly... because Lisa tends to be a slight be harsh... and I don't think I'm really harsh... am I? There's things I don't agree with though, but I empathized more with the kid going through that. *shudder*
Synesthesia, circumcision is important to Jews because, for their religion, it is an important part of the covenant their people made with God. Sort of (but not exactly like) Christians being baptised. It is a big deal for them.
And Lisa is not saying to make it mandatory but she is saying that in the hoped-for future it will be mandatory.
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There could be worse things to be extreme about than compassion and gentleness towards children... You should hear some of my other inactivist acquaintances and various extreme APers...
Mostly I want to brainwash myself before I have kids, there's attitudes about kids that disturb me and I've heard them from at least every relative I've spoke to...
I really just cannot get past the cutting aspect of it and how it changes the penis for life. Folks are trying to restore their foreskins, it's so... permanent...
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quote:There could be worse things to be extreme about than compassion and gentleness towards children...
If you're trying to actually change other people's minds, there's not much that is worse than seeming extreme.
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quote:There could be worse things to be extreme about than compassion and gentleness towards children...
I think nearly everyone here would agree with you, but an extreme view none the less. Where I feel it rubs people the wrong way is that you do not acknowledge that A) it is a medically sound decision, and B) a parent's decision for their children.
Your goal of not wanting circumcision to be the the unquestioned norm is one that has been widely accepted.
ETA: Even my negative experience with not being snipped wasn't enough to make up my mind about it with my son. I did some research, and spoke about it at length with my wife (who was for it, as a nurse) and even then I asked the doctor three separate times if my son would get a pain killer. He did not pass out, he fell peacefully asleep as I stroked his hair and my wife held his hand. Getting people to ask questions is good. Assuming that it is always painful and horrible experience is not.
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quote:I think it should be the decision of the person who owns the penis...
This is not a reasonable goal, as the surgery is a minor on infants and major, possibly life threatening on adults. I was in bed in excruciating pain for a week and half of recovery after my circumcision at age 12. Any time they put you all the way under for surgery there is a small but real chance you will never wake up again.
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Being a parent myself, Synesthesia, I do understand your concerns, however, I think when you become a parent that you'll view the role differently. Parents are required to make choices that effect their child's upbringing. It's part of the job.
As far as the topic of circumcision itself, I view it in a historical context tied to religion. People (generally speaking) are not the brightest, for the time and place of the origin of this custom, the leaders would have needed some way to convince people that it was necessary. Thus, as with many other topics, they tied it to their religion so that the fear of God's wrath would keep people clean and alive to procreate and spread the religion further.
As someone who was not circumcised, I cannot tell you how the other half lives. Growing up I was taught that it was important to clean it and make sure that I took proper steps to prevent infection. As far as how it affects stimulation and sensitivity, only those who have had a circumcision as an adult would be able to tell you if there is a difference for them.
As far as women preferring one form over the other as reason for justification of circumcision, that is yet another example of the shallow world we live in, if it holds any merit at all.
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quote:Parents are required to make choices that effect their child's upbringing. It's part of the job.
And there's always somebody willing to tell you that the choice you made is going to ruin the child's life.
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And frequently, mr_porteiro_head, parents do make the wrong choice.
There are parents who choose to spoil their children so that their children expect that everything will be handed to them on a silver platter and that, to me, is wrong.
There are parents who choose to beat their children bloody, ignore them or starve them. To me, that is also wrong.
I raise my daughter to think for herself but to also obey the rules. She has chores, despite the fact that she is young, and understands that you don't get everything just because you want it. I feel that this will allow her to function in society. Am I ruining my daughter's life? Probably. I hope for the day when she comes back, in her 20s, and thanks my wife and I for being stern with her.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Wait a second... I did not exactly say outlaw it...
Though... Mostly I wish people would STOP doing it altogether on their own, but I don't understand why not doing it would make someone a Bad Jew... What if it were a mother who had reasonable concerns about the pain factor?
It wouldn't make a bit of difference. It is one of the most essential core requirements of Judaism. And we aren't exactly asking for anyone else's opinion on it. God vs. a squeamish mother? God wins. And someone who rejects something so fundamental to Judaism is obviously a bad Jew.
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quote:Originally posted by Johivin: I raise my daughter to think for herself but to also obey the rules. She has chores, despite the fact that she is young, and understands that you don't get everything just because you want it. I feel that this will allow her to function in society. Am I ruining my daughter's life? Probably. I hope for the day when she comes back, in her 20s, and thanks my wife and I for being stern with her.
Yes. It isn't our job to raise happy children. It's our job to raise happy adults.
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Stone_Wolf, it was considered so fundamental that the early Christians fought over requiring it for non-Jews to become Christians.
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ETA: I am not endorsing that web site in general. It just contained a fairly easy access to Genesis 17 which should be sufficient.
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) how they should be raising their children, despite a relative lack of experience or expertise.
