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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Circumcision is barbaric (Page 6)

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Author Topic: Circumcision is barbaric
Johivin
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Johivin:
I raise my daughter to think for herself but to also obey the rules. She has chores, despite the fact that she is young, and understands that you don't get everything just because you want it. I feel that this will allow her to function in society. Am I ruining my daughter's life? Probably. I hope for the day when she comes back, in her 20s, and thanks my wife and I for being stern with her.

Yes. It isn't our job to raise happy children. It's our job to raise happy adults.
Was that to be taken as sarcasm? My daughter is very happy, Lisa. There are just expectations of her and things that must be done. She has two loving parents who spend time with her and read to her. The difference is that if my daughter wants something, we don't immediately buy it for her. We don't give into the "Gimmes".
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Stone_Wolf_
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Thanks Boots, that helps me understand better.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Johivin, I don't think Lisa was being sarcastic, merely agreeing that if you keep your child happy it won't make them happy as adults (i.e. punishing/giving responsibility/discipline would make a child less happy in the short run, but is better for them in the long run).
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Johivin:
I raise my daughter to think for herself but to also obey the rules. She has chores, despite the fact that she is young, and understands that you don't get everything just because you want it. I feel that this will allow her to function in society. Am I ruining my daughter's life? Probably. I hope for the day when she comes back, in her 20s, and thanks my wife and I for being stern with her.

Yes. It isn't our job to raise happy children. It's our job to raise happy adults.
I'm not saying children have to be happy ALL the time, but not being raised in a harsh way can contribute to a happy adulthood. It's like something like NOT teaching a child discipline, or letting them do what they want. It's more like treating the child not like they are a pre-adult, but a child that's developing and learning.
Which isn't really how I was treated a lot of times...
It doesn't mean spoiling them, or putting them on a pedestal, but respecting and being kind to them...
Like, I read an article about someone complaining about wussy parents. I'm not saying let the child use a pacifier until they're 30, but does it have to be snatched away with no kind of transition? No consideration for how the child feels?
That's why I like Sears and when his wife was writing about taking her child out and saying goodbye to the toys before just yanking the child away. Like the child didn't have to be stressed or the parent. They're just so nice.

Also, not even the pain aspect can change your mind about that, Lisa?

Also, circumcision is one reason why I have trouble with religions...

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Blayne Bradley
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If there isn't an intrinsic cultural or religious reason for it there's no good reason for circumcision.
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Stone_Wolf_
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My penis disagrees with you Blayne.
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Blayne Bradley
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OOC Lisa what about those Jews who reject circumcision due to the number of Jews who died during the Holocaust because it was an easy way to identify them?

quote:

My penis disagrees with you Blayne.

Its not like an easily cosmetic process that reversible.
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Synesthesia
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I kind of agree with Blayne, but I'd add medical reasons, but folks have to learn that you do NOT retract a baby's foreskin. You just do not do that. It retracts on its own. Retracting before it's ready will cause infections and women also have a foreskin like part too, so if you retracted that, that would cause problems as well.
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Blayne Bradley
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I just thought of a reason, not getting random erections in class, dang rubbing causing... uncomfortable... awkward... situations...
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
There could be worse things to be extreme about than compassion and gentleness towards children...
You should hear some of my other inactivist acquaintances and various extreme APers...

Mostly I want to brainwash myself before I have kids, there's attitudes about kids that disturb me and I've heard them from at least every relative I've spoke to...

I really just cannot get past the cutting aspect of it and how it changes the penis for life. Folks are trying to restore their foreskins, it's so...
permanent...

I totally understand where you are coming from. I can see how you think it is wrong to circumcize a child. I am happy though that you do not think it should be illegal.

I am the oldest of 5 boys, and we were all circumcized. I'm actually very glad I was. I have a grandfather that had to have it done while he was in his sixties due an infection, and he was in extreme pain for weeks. He could not walk, and sleeping was uncomfortable as well. My grandfather is also a very clean man, he showers at least twice a day. Sometimes it just happens.

My new nephew was circumcized a few weeks ago, and after the initial cut, he was fine. He was still a little sore down there, but he recovered quickly. It really isn't as gruesome as you might think. It didn't look deformed or bloody or scabby at all.

I don't know. I really understand where you are coming from, but I have to ask myself whether I would want to have it done when the baby will not remember it and can recover quickly, or when they are older and go through the extreme pain, as well as any potential monetary losses from loss of time at work, etc.

And don't knock the Jews. The hospital my brother went to didn't have a size that would fit his little fella, so my parents took him to a Rabbi. The Rabbi did it free hand, apparently he did a better job than the hospital did on the rest of us.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Blayne, the reason my penis disagrees with you is that my circumcision was done for medical reasons.

Syn...you sure you agree with him? He's saying
quote:
If there isn't an intrinsic cultural or religious reason for it there's no good reason for circumcision.
Or if you remove the negatives you get:

If there is an intrinsic cultural or religious reason for it there's a good reason for circumcision.

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Synesthesia
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It's really just the pain aspect that makes me think there's not a good reason for it, also I'm a heathen too...Surgery on babies that isn't for a life threatening situation doesn't sit well with me.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Why is circumcision so fundamental to Judaism Lisa?

That was (apparently) *so hard*.
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Stone_Wolf_
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I assure you that there is little to no pain in a modern circumcision done in the hospital. After my son's surgery regular baby tylenol was all that was needed for the pain. Trust me, babies let you know if they are unhappy/in pain. The wound itself never bled, and just looked red, then healthy pink.

My son never suffered in the whole process.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Rakeesh, what is the point of your post other then to egg me on into a fight? Are you seriously that much of a negative person? Just gotta pop up and put some sarcasm in...or is it, told ya so?

Either way, you're character is lacking. Go away.

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rivka
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Geraine, not a rabbi; a mohel. Not all rabbis are mohels, not all mohels are rabbis, but many are both. That is, he may well have been a rabbi, but it is the training as a mohel that made him qualified to do a circumcision, not his training as a rabbi.
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Geraine, not a rabbi; a mohel. Not all rabbis are mohels, not all mohels are rabbis, but many are both. That is, he may well have been a rabbi, but it is the training as a mohel that made him qualified to do a circumcision, not his training as a rabbi.

Not sure how that really mattered to my story, but thank you for clearing that up. [Smile]
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rivka
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There are enough misperceptions about Judaism and circumcision (in this thread and in the world at large), that I felt like clearing yours up. [Wink]
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Rakeesh, what is the point of your post other then to egg me on into a fight? Are you seriously that much of a negative person? Just gotta pop up and put some sarcasm in...or is it, told ya so?

Either way, you're character is lacking. Go away.

Well I can't be *sure* but your repeated suggestions that j was lying, dropped without comment when I demonstrates I wasn't, *might* lead to some satisfaction when you actually, finally ask the question instead of presume and dictate.

One might even wonder what that sort of behavior days about character.

Go away?
quote:
Or do whatever you want like I will do whatever I want.
So, naw, I think when you contradict yourself or make assumptions, I'll go by your standard, bro. Especially when, y'know, you're specifically full of crap (saying words are being put in your mouth) when I provably didn't.
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kmbboots
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If you want to explain better to Stone Wolf, that would probably be good. I was aiming for the small word version.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Don't bother to explain anything to me Rakeesh. I'm not prefect, I'm stubborn, and jump to defend myself sometimes when it isn't called for, but I also have tried again and again to come up with a way we can coexist here, even share in discussions and time again you have returned with unveiled hostility, attacking me personally consistently, on topics we actually agree on.

You are persona non grata to me. I won't answer your posts ever again. Good bye.

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Blayne Bradley
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A proper medical reason for it goes without saying; generic medical reasons like hygiene aren't to my mind sufficient.


I'll never be able to play peekaboo now with my future girlfriend [Frown]

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Blayne Bradley
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I still love you Rakeesh ^_^
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Don't bother to explain anything to me Rakeesh. I'm not prefect, I'm stubborn, and jump to defend myself sometimes when it isn't called for, but I also have tried again and again to come up with a way we can coexist here, even share in discussions and time again you have returned with unveiled hostility, attacking me personally consistently, on topics we actually agree on.

You are persona non grata to me. I won't answer your posts ever again. Good bye.

Yes, well, I do hope that's true. It'd be the first time after similar declarations. Anyway, the irritation started when you were telling Jews about their religion from a position if serious ignorance. The hostility in *this* thread towards you started pretty much when you said I was lying even when I wasn't. Especially after I used your own standard for doing so. The *contempt* didn't really start until you just dropped it at that point. 'Stubborn' isn't actually an excuse for saying someone is lying when they're not.
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Samprimary
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YOU'RE DEAD TO ME RAKEESH

quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
There are enough misperceptions about Judaism and circumcision (in this thread and in the world at large), that I felt like clearing yours up. [Wink]

I mean seriously I even literally linked to Monster Mohel, so by now everyone needs to know that Mohels are disgusting deranged men who suck blood out of baby penises (and need to be stopped by blonde superheroes)
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rivka
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Yeah, that totally helped with clearing up misconceptions.
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Samprimary
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I'm actually reading foreskin man right now. it's more creepy than I could have possibly dreamed
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Why is circumcision so fundamental to Judaism Lisa?

Because God said so.

During our history, Christians and others have, from time to time, forbidden us to circumcise our children. Often on pain of death, both for the child and for the parents. Many Jews have died rather than obey such wicked laws.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Johivin:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Johivin:
I raise my daughter to think for herself but to also obey the rules. She has chores, despite the fact that she is young, and understands that you don't get everything just because you want it. I feel that this will allow her to function in society. Am I ruining my daughter's life? Probably. I hope for the day when she comes back, in her 20s, and thanks my wife and I for being stern with her.

Yes. It isn't our job to raise happy children. It's our job to raise happy adults.
Was that to be taken as sarcasm?
Not in the slightest. I first heard that from my younger sister. And it's true. From time to time, the restrictions we put on our daughter will make her unhappy. And when she grows up, particularly when she has children of her own, she'll understand that it was for her benefit.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
Also, not even the pain aspect can change your mind about that, Lisa?

There isn't nearly as much pain involved as you seem to think, Syn. I've been at my own son's circumcision, as well as many others. Sometimes the fear of a thing is worse than the thing itself. You're shrinking from shadows, but they aren't what you think they are.
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Synesthesia
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I'm sorry, but I find it absolutely hard to believe that cutting a part of the body that sensitive with that many nerve endings doesn't hurt.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
OOC Lisa what about those Jews who reject circumcision due to the number of Jews who died during the Holocaust because it was an easy way to identify them?

I've never heard of people like that. But if they exist, they're idiots.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
I'm sorry, but I find it absolutely hard to believe that cutting a part of the body that sensitive with that many nerve endings doesn't hurt.

See, and that's exactly what I'm talking about. You aren't dealing with reality here. You're railing against something that exists in your imagination. Nerve endings aren't nearly as well developed a week after birth as they are later on in life, and neither are memories.

Feel free to keep imagining the worst and then condemning what you've imagined. You seem to be enjoying it.

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Synesthesia
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Dude, this is so reality. The reality of the situation is no matter how much you say the nerves aren't developed yet, or they don't feel it, that kid crying like that shows that they are feeling the pain of that intensely.
I can't understand how folks can't see that! That they are inflicting pain on a baby and it doesn't matter if they won't remember it.

I don't care if folks call me an extremist. I'll wear the label proud because it's wrong to do that to a baby on so many levels. That is a PERSONAL body part that's private and meant for pleasure and folks are going to do THAT to it? Out of tradition or culture or whatever when more people are figuring out that they don't want to do this anymore? http://www.forward.com/articles/11192/
http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/ I'm sorry, I know it's an old tradition, but it doesn't seem right to me. There's no way I could or would let anyone do that to a child of mine, let alone other folks' children if it's a proven fact that it HURTS. That alone is enough for me to be totally against doing that to babies.

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Minerva
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Honestly, the kid starts crying when you take off the diaper at that age. And often cries bloody murder for absolutely no discernible reason. A newborn crying is not really evidence of a whole lot.

None of my sons was really phased much by his bris. I know it's a bit hard to believe, but it's the reality. They stopped crying as soon as they were picked up and weren't really any fussier than my girls for the few days following.

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dabbler
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I think it's reasonable to assume that it's painful. Now, I don't think that pain alone is a sufficient argument. The degree of pain changes based on many factors of course. The following is the abstract for the Cochrane Database review on Pain Relief for Neonatal Circumcision:

quote:
Abstract
Background
Circumcision is a painful procedure that many newborn males undergo in the first few days after birth. Interventions are available to reduce pain at circumcision; however, many newborns are circumcised without pain management.

Objectives
The objective of this review was to assess the effectiveness and safety of interventions for reducing pain at neonatal circumcision.

Search strategy
We searched Cochrane Central Register of Controlled Trials (CENTRAL, The Cochrane Library, Issue 2, 2004), MEDLINE (1966 - April 2004), EMBASE (1988 - 2004 week 19), CINAHL (1982 - May week 1 2004), Dissertation Abstracts (1986 - May 2004), Proceedings of the World Congress on Pain (1993 - 1999), and reference lists of articles. Language restrictions were not imposed.

Selection criteria
Randomised controlled trials comparing pain interventions with placebo or no treatment or comparing two active pain interventions in male term or preterm infants undergoing circumcision.

Data collection and analysis
Two independent reviewers assessed trial quality and extracted data. Ten authors were contacted for additional information. Adverse effects information was obtained from the trial reports. For meta-analysis, data on a continuous scale were reported as weighted mean difference (WMD) or, when the units were not compatible, as standardized mean difference.

Main results
Thirty-five trials involving 1,997 newborns were included. Thirty-three trials enrolled healthy, full term neonates, and two enrolled infants born preterm.

Fourteen trials involving 592 newborns compared dorsal penile nerve block (DPNB) with placebo or no treatment. Compared to placebo/no treatment, DPNB demonstrated significantly lower heart rate [WMD -35 bpm, 95% CI -41 to -30], decreased time crying [WMD -54 %, 95% CI -64 to -44], and increased oxygen saturation [WMD 3.7 %, 95% CI 2.7 to 3.7]. Six trials involving 200 newborns compared eutectic mixture of analgesics (EMLA) with placebo. EMLA demonstrated significantly lower facial action scores [WMD -46.5, 95% CI -80.4 to -12.6], decreased time crying [WMD - 15.2 %, 95% CI -21 to -9.3] and lower heart rate [WMD -15 bpm, 95% CI -19 to -10]. DPNB, compared with EMLA in three trials involving 139 newborns (133 of whom were included in the analysis), demonstrated significantly lower heart rate [WMD -17 bpm, 95% CI -23 to -11] and pain scores. When compared with sucrose in two trials involving 127 newborns, DPNB demonstrated less time crying [MD -166 s, 95% CI -211 to -121], and lower heart rate [WMD -27 bpm, 95% CI -33 to -20]. Results obtained for trials comparing oral sucrose and oral analgesics to placebo, and trials of environmental modification were either inconsistent or were not significantly different.

Adverse effects included gagging, choking, and emesis in placebo/untreated groups. Minor bleeding, swelling and hematoma were reported with DPNB. Erythema and mild skin pallor were observed with the use of EMLA. Methaemoglobin levels were evaluated in two trials of EMLA, and results were within normal limits.

Authors' conclusions
DPNB was the most frequently studied intervention and was the most effective for circumcision pain. Compared to placebo, EMLA was also effective, but was not as effective as DPNB. Both interventions appear to be safe for use in newborns. None of the studied interventions completely eliminated the pain response to circumcision.


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Jeorge
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Syn...you sure you agree with him? He's saying
quote:
If there isn't an intrinsic cultural or religious reason for it there's no good reason for circumcision.
Or if you remove the negatives you get:

If there is an intrinsic cultural or religious reason for it there's a good reason for circumcision.

Not to be picky, but if you remove the negatives, you get the inverse of the statement, which is not necessarily an equivalent statement. You want the contrapositive instead:

"If there is a good reason for circumcision, it is an intrinsic cultural or religious reason."

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Minerva
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Oh, yeah, definitely painful. But it seems like they get over it very quickly and are not very bothered by it later.
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Lisa
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Shots are painful, too.
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just_me
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As, I would venture, is BIRTH itself.

Maybe we should stop that, too...

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Synesthesia
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Not nearly as painful as having the prepuce cut and peeled away. This is getting ridiculous. How can people NOT think that hurts like hell? And even if they get over it, why do it in the first place?
It's too risky. There's stuff like MRSA and gangrene to consider.
Gangrene... there...

Ugh. I don't know why people are trying so hard to defend something that the more I think about it isn't right on a lot of levels. Such as that being a personal part of the body that the person who owns it has the right to decide about!

And yes, I am officially an anti-inflicting preventable pain on babies extremist and proud of it. A baby should be in the arms of his mother and father being cuddled, not being cut for any reason at all.

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Lisa
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Bris Milah of the first Jewish boy born on November 2

quote:
The self-described enlightened ones of the 'progressive' city of San Francisco have collected enough signatures to put a proposed ban on circumcision for males under age 18 on the ballot come this Election Day. (A similar move to put such a motion on the ballot in Santa Monica has been proposed, but thank G-d, its proponent has retracted it.)

This is nothing but anti-semitism in the guise of concern for human rights.

Much has been written about this:
San Francisco - http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fc%2Fa%2F2011%2F05%2F19%2FED6L1JIBON.DTL
Santa Monica - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1391146/Now-Santa-Monica-vote-ban-circumcision-males-18.html

For the time being, we must do what we can to defeat these motions legally: Write letters, lobby your representatives, circulate and sign petitions, attend rallies, and most of all, TURN OUT ON ELECTION DAY AND VOTE.

But if, G-d forbid, such motions pass, the time to be nice and proper will be over. Jews and their supporters must take to the streets en masse in forceful shows of public civil disobedience and Kiddush Hashem (sanctification of G-d's name).

On or after November 2, a healthy Jewish boy is likely to be born in or near the city. The bris will be celebrated the day after Election Day, at which point we will know whether the motions will have been passed or defeated.

IN THE EVENT THAT THESE MOTIONS PASS, let us celebrate the boys' entering the covenant of Abraham our Father by holding the Bris ceremony in the VERY PUBLIC AREA mentioned above. Jews must fill Union Square to celebrate such a bris in public.

IF OUR ARAB 'COUSINS' CAN TAKE TO THEIR 'STREET' FOR THEIR 'CAUSES' AND SPREAD THE WORD VIA FACEBOOK AND THE INTERNET, WE MUST DO THE SAME FOR THE PURPOSE OF PUBLIC KIDDUSH HASHEM. Barring mass flight to Israel (and let's be real, that isn't going to happen), WE MUST FIGHT FOR OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AND LET THE GOVERNMENT AND THE ANTI-SEMITIC/SELF-HATING-JEWISH 'INTACTIVISTS' KNOW THAT WE WILL NOT BE PUSHED TO THE WALL.

The Greeks and Hellenists under Antiochus, and later the Romans, also banned circumcision in the name of their 'progressive' and 'enlightened' values. In the end it was the JEWS who prevailed; we are STILL HERE while those vaunted empires lay in ruins. Let's PREVENT such a thing from happening here as we live!

SPREAD THE WORD! LET'S CROWD THESE PLACES WITH JEWS AND PRO-JEWS, AND NOT LET OUR RIGHTS BE TRAMPLED ON BY THE SELF-RIGHTEOUS FEW!

Personally, I think they should bring every Jewish boy born on the 2nd. Bite me, San Francisco.
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Synesthesia
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You do realize your extremism is making me MORE extreme, right?

Also, whoa. England kicks some serious ass! They don't make me feel absolutely insane for believing that you should not be allowed to cut a healthy part of a baby's body.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
Not nearly as painful as having the prepuce cut and peeled away. This is getting ridiculous. How can people NOT think that hurts like hell? And even if they get over it, why do it in the first place?
It's too risky. There's stuff like MRSA and gangrene to consider.
Gangrene... there...

Fruitbat. We're talking about a piece of skin smaller than the nail on your little finger. It doesn't get "peeled" away. It's snipped and that's it. Have you ever seen a circumcision? Unlikely.
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Synesthesia
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It actually doesn't just get snipped. It's fused to the glans.

Also, I rather like fruitbats. Quit trying to antagonize me.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
You do realize your extremism is making me MORE extreme, right?
Are you helpless against this? I mean, can I make you into a complete loony by being transigent enough?
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Synesthesia
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She's making me mad though. I'm really slow to anger.
It's like if I'm around extreme conservatives I get MORE liberal and if I'm around hyper liberals I might get HYPER conservative almost to the point of wearing a pink business suit...

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Mucus
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Man, now I kinda want them to pass the thing just to see the spectacle of a mass public circumcision.
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Synesthesia
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Why would you WANT to see that? I can't even look at a picture or a video without wanting to cry...
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TomDavidson
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quote:
I'm really slow to anger.
No, you're not.
Fully a quarter of your posts tend to involve explaining why you feel that something is making you justifiably angry.

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