quote: Leto might be an aggressive and belligerent bugger from time to time, but he's also incredibly intelligent, his arguments are cogent and he knows what he's talking about. I can't say the same for his critics on this thread.
No one here was insulting Leto's intelligence. Why are you defending it?
As per the cogency of his arguments, that is very subjective. He may know what he's talking about, but I dare say no one else knows what he's talking about. If he has a point to communicate, he has done a poor job doing it.
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quote: racism is something that only whites can be guilty of. I am not berating anyone, I just want to know if this is the perception.
Who's gonna lay claim something like that? *Raises hand* The question is interesting though because it is reactionary.
We have to figure out a way to identify racism, and learn how to change the perceptions of individuals that we come in contact with.
Posts: 45 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: and learn how to change the perceptions of individuals that we come in contact with.
While this idea is very noble, I don't think it is realistic. Perhaps we can refuse to fit into people's stereotypes, thus not reinforcing their racism, but it is not an easy thing to change someone's perceptions.
quote: "we are what we pretend successfully to be."
This is important. It fits into this in an important way.
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posted
Wait a minute, you think it's unrealistic to be able to change people's perceptions, but you think it's realistic to change the way they percieve you by changing your behavior?
These sound like identicle phrases framed differently.
quote:you think it's unrealistic to be able to change people's perceptions,
Yes
quote: but you think it's realistic to change the way they percieve us by changing our behavior?
No, changing ones behavior is not analogous to changing someone's perception. You are who you pretend to be, meaning, people perceive the actions you make. However, the judgements made about those actions is the problem here.
My original sentiment is that if our actions reinforce racism, if black people act like they hate whites, whites perceive this and will feel justified in hating blacks. The problem comes in the pecerption. Obviously Leto perceived my posts in this thread as being racist. I would say that his posts were racist.
I am of the opinion that nothing I have said on this forum is of a racist nature. Yet some see them as such, that is the problem. It would seem that there is no objective method for testing for racism.
posted
No way, I see this as removing your liability (or your counterpart's) as a player in the scenario. If you are told that something you do is racist, you have to find out why. As far as I could tell, Leto didn't come up with anything more than reactionary and defensive statements directed at the wrong audience.
quote: No, changing ones behavior is not analogous to changing someone's perception.
This is incorrect. People can instinctively read body language and tone of voice. Also:
quote: "we are what we pretend successfully to be."
If people percieve you differently, then, over time, their perception of you will change.
I suppose if they refuse to change their behaviors in response to your behaviors, you can either continue to change your behaviors, or move one to someone else.
Continuing: If someone is afraid of, or hates all people he comes in contact with, this will become clear over time. If he is nice to white people, and afraid of or mean to black people, this will become clear over time.
I have a possibility, Individuals generalizing the concept of race, and therefore allowing it to become their own behavior modifier is the societal cause of racism.
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posted
Choc, Just as a quick little aside, you accidentally made some comments that fit in pretty perfectly with an ongoing argument around here. That's why a few people thought you were someone using a new name. It's no big deal. Welcome to Hatrack.
As another aside, Leto can be harsh, he can be rude, and he can be argumentative. But hey, he's a pretty nice guy if you talk to him outside a debate thread over a hot topic like racism. I wouldn't let the way somebody debates over something that almost everyone feels passionately for color the way I see them as a person.
If people judged me solely on the way I argue in real life, I'm afraid I would have been killed long ago.
posted
Another reason discussing this issue is now a waste of time, Robespierre.
quote:I get the impression that a lot of you out there think racism is something that only whites can be guilty of. I am not berating anyone, I just want to know if this is the perception.
You get lots of "impressions" and then proceed from those impressions as though people have made statements that match your assumptions. Since it's likely I'm included in your list, no, I don't think racism is a white-only crime. To be fair, at least this time you said that it was an impression instead of your nonstop accusations of endorsing Affirmative Action.
Believing whites are the only race capable of racism is just as foolish as believing that racism and prejudice in America are, in fact, minimal barriers to achievement in the lives of minorities in America and, in fact, if they don't achieve it's pretty much their own fault because they faced minimal barriers.
Edit: And nice try Robespierre, but John did make his points very clear. He was in no way vague, and your fall-back defense is that you're talking about your opinion. His silly facts, studies, links, and statistics have no place in a discussion of your opinion, after all.
No, lots of people know precisely what he's talking about. Your efforts to render his arguments ineffective were entirely ineffective. In fact, he's simply gotten tired of arguing it with you. The people who agreed with him are no longer listening to you.
quote: No, lots of people know precisely what he's talking about. Your efforts to render his arguments ineffective were entirely ineffective. In fact, he's simply gotten tired of arguing it with you. The people who agreed with him are no longer listening to you.
Since you are obviously not one those people who have stopped listening, perhaps you can explain Leto's point. Can you restate it at all? I doubt you can since there is no original point that he was arguing from. Leto was just here to attack people and stop the discussion of the important aspects of this problem.
I challenge you to restate Leto's main point in this argument.
quote: You get lots of "impressions" and then proceed from those impressions as though people have made statements that match your assumptions.
Find one.
quote: as foolish as believing that racism and prejudice in America are, in fact, minimal barriers to achievement in the lives of minorities in America and, in fact, if they don't achieve it's pretty much their own fault because they faced minimal barriers.
Is this your point? That racism is the current reason why some minority groups are less well off economically?
quote:Another reason discussing this issue is now a waste of time, Robespierre.
I apologize for forcing you to respond to me. Please, don't let me waste any more of your time.
posted
Rob in general has been pretty polite in this thread. I think it's a pretty far stretch to compare him to Baldar.
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quote: Heh. If Baldar had a love child with Anna Nicole Smith...
I have not forgotten your racism Lalo. You have had very little to add to this discussion. You are not in a position to judge me.
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posted
I don't understand what's up with everyone attacking Robespierre on this thread. I've been following most of what has been said here up until the end, and he has not really said much that was offensive. (And him simply believing something you don't believe is not grounds for offense.) For the most part, those attacking him have been much much worse than he has been at any point. What up with that? At least try to be civil. A serious thread is not an excuse to insult people.
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"I don't understand what's up with everyone attacking Robespierre on this thread."
Neither do I. Something really screwy is going on. I just read altogether to much of the recent pages of this thread, and there is something I do not comprehend- Why this meaningless back and forth between Leto and Robespierre, on an interesting, pertinent topic when I couldn't get any feedback on what I said on pg.2 except that I was whining! I just don't get it.
Now I'm allowing that maybe I was lacking in my clarity the first two times I posted, so I'm gonna edit and re-do. This time I'm asking that at the very least, somebody explain to me how my post and personal experience is invalid or not pertinent to this topic. I really am rather lacking in practical experience on this topic, but I've considered it a great deal and am very interested.
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posted
"If being black defines who you are, then is it possible to *not* be racist?"
Of course not. We are all naturally racist. It is natural to fear that which is different. There is only the matter of whether or not one will act with such feeling.
I have, based primarily on my personal apearance, been evicted twice and arrested once, in three different places. Granted, maybe I'm a little non-conformist and don't wash my hair every day- so shoot me- but I have zero criminal record. Has injustice been done to me? You bet. Have I been really pissed off about it, seriously and angrily contemplated murder over it? You bet. Was it stereotyping? Darn right. Would it have been different if I'd looked different? Right again. Am I too stubborn to change my appearance over it? Sure am, and proud of it. Do I go out and scream 'racism!','classism!' or any other ism bloody murder? Hell, no! If I were to scream something, it would be 'injustice!' and I would call for justice to right it.
WHAT I THINK: While people call for an end to racism instead of an end to injustice, that call itself will likely be unjust.
Injustice has to be treated on an individual level; as it is in the constitution. It also has to be dealt with on the level of actions and legislation- rather than thoughts or feelings. Why in G-d's name anybody would think differently on this, I do not know. But know this: we people of the U.S. of A. have an idea that we can think, feel, and within reason, say whatever the devil we want to! There's no such thing as thought crime. If I want to think that you're a dirty black bastard or a dirty white bastard or a dirty brown or grey or green bastard, then I have a constitutional right to do so. Agreed? Better be, unless you wanna fight about it .
Ok then, on actions and legislation. Actions: this one is pretty simple. I think we all agree that justice is colorblind. So unless you want to talk about hate crimes, and I don't, an evil action is an evil action, and not racist, because it doesn't really matter who the target is, does it? Or is the right or life of a white worth more than that of a black or vice-versa?
Legislation: That one's a good deal more complicated. First of all, we need to agree that our constitutional rights described above are a good thing and need to be kept around. Second, I would agree with those that say our public schools should educate for racial tolerance to a large degree. Third, it's obvious that no publicly run institution should have any rule restricting any race of people, and I think it may be alright too, in a few cases, make some small provisos to help minority peoples get into colleges and jobs, but only in the case that it is clear that discrimination would otherwise reign. Fourth, as to legislating the private sector, no facility, anywhere except completely private, should be allowed to discriminate against occupants based solely on race, but no employer can necessarily be made to not discriminate racially on those it hires, so why bother trying unless it's obvious- they can always weasel around it, and there's to much room for error on the part of the enforcer. Perhaps I've left something out, but beyond this, there's not much left. So unless a people can come up with examples of where this(approximately) was not employed, they had sure better quit calling racism, because they're no longer attacking racism, they're attacking the constitution.
posted
Hey, Choco---I didn't think you were being a jerk. This thread has just gotten way out of hand. I am new---I came over from another forum at Patrick's recommendation. I have not been attacked, but a few people joked around that I might be Cedrios, but it was just a joke.
And, Robes, I don't think it's only white people, I think it's everybody. I've seen racist whites, blacks, hispanics, asians, jews, etc, etc. It's everybody.
Everyone needs to listen to that guy with the long name and MELLOW........
Posts: 463 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Yeah, Robes is rather Baldar-esque... *shrug* Kinda makes it amusing that Tres agrees with him so much, heh.
I also think its funny that we all are willing to forgive the behaviour of those we agree with. For example, Tres has no problem with anything Robespierre has said - rather, he thinks his debating skills are exemplary. I, on the other hand, would say the same of Leto.
Of course, I'm right so it's just academic, really. Posts: 2945 | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:I have not forgotten your racism Lalo. You have had very little to add to this discussion. You are not in a position to judge me.
You haven't forgotten my now what on the whosits? Am I a racist now? Heh. KKK 4 life!
And though I've added far less to the thread in terms of sheer volume, I flatter myself by believing my few posts have contributed a far more honest and far less vitrolic perspective to the discussion. It's not your viewpoint I have as much a problem with as your ad hominem attacks on Leto (and Jeff, for that matter), then dancing out of the way of his questions, then repeating the obnoxious cycle. You seem more anxious to fight than to come to a civilized conclusion.
But, of course, I guess I'm just judging you by the color of your skin.
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quote: So, Rob, if I'm reading you correctly, you're buying into the right-wing paradigm of a world filled with lazy, drug-addicted morons on welfare who want nothing more than to suck all the money they can from you and belt out another couple babies. And, of course, steal your SUV while executing children. Right?
(Note: My mistake. It's a conservative position to execute minors -- it's a liberal position to execute fetii.)
Please, oh please, let me do a little speculation. You're a white male. Born upper middle class or richer. Probably well educated (at a private school?). From a between-the-coasts state, predominately white, and probably heavily conservative? When asked about racism, you rattle off the names of some of your black friends? You believe Middle Easterners (excepting Israelis, of course) tend to be blind religious fanatics who use the innocent United States as a scapegoat for their own problems and a target for their meaningless hatred? C'mon, tell me how much of this I got right.
Just to crown it, out of interest, do you listen to Rush Limbaugh on your way into work (your work being a white-collar job, probably management or administration)?
Lalo, you are no more or less racist than Leto as far as I can see. Perhaps neither of you are racist, perhaps you are both just driven to anger and say things you don't mean. I don't know. But when you do this, you make intelligent conversation nearly impossible.
quote: Lalo's post in THIS thread, I thought was very well said and an excellent insight into his personal situation.
With Leto gone, it seemed as though the conversation could possibly settle down into a serious discussion. Then Rakeesh, Lalo, and others move in to stir up discontent again.
As I said, it is not possible to have a civil discussion under these circumstances. If my responding to these attacks is causing the trouble, then I apologize, but I do not think this is the case.
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posted
Rob, Of course responding to attacks makes the situation worse. Quit pretending. I don't care one whit about which side any of you are on, but calm down.
Put it this way, even the comments I agree with make me want to disagree because of the way they are said. This is not an effective way to debate.
posted
So, is this thread about figuring out the nature of racism in America and finding solutions, or coming up with the best way of insulting everyone on the other side of the argument and otherwise proving that you've got the biggest wang? Cause, honestly, I'm a little confused.
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posted
Wow. I'd forgotten I made that post. Of course, Rob, you left out the apology I made exactly three minutes after I wrote the post you quoted. How surprising.
quote:By the way, sorry if I sound obnoxious. I'm pulling more than a little David Bowles right now. Please consider Chris to be the Rude Liberal Cabal's spokesperson rather than me.
But what I wrote was genuinely offensive and unnecessary. I'm not proud that I wrote it, nor am I sure why -- Chris and Dan were doing a fine job fielding the questions you asked over, and over, and over again.
Oh, well. At least I get to read your response to it. Heh.
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When asked about racism, you rattle off the names of some of your black friends? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You sicken me. Do you even live within 30 miles of a black person? I bet you are afraid to refer to blacks as "black" when you speak with them. No of course not, your liberal guilt cripples you and you use the term "african americans."
Welcome to the discussion, you coward.
I don't live within 200 miles of a black person, to be honest. I've seen them on television before, though. They're the dark people that keep robbing Korean liquor stores, right? Goodness me, I don't know what I'd do if I saw one in my exclusive white neighborhood. I just don't want my kids exposed to that kind of element.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Oh Dear God and Goddess, this isn't happening right??
I'm praying this is all blatant sarcasm, right??
This thread is becoming really fricken' ugly. I don't think anyone posting on this thread is racist, unless of course what I hope is sarcasm is real. Please, please just stop beating each other up.
Bob's right. This thread is about figuring out solutions to the racist problem in America.
It's there. It's alive and well, on all sides. Now, how can it be fixed?
The musical 'South Pacific' comes to mind. It is like drinking poisoned water or eating garlic. It's fed to us at an early age, and as you get older, it takes root and grows.
What needs to be done will take a long time. People need to learn to be tolerant and accepting. My mother's parents, my grandparents rahter, were not prejudiced or racist. They were horrified at the events in Birmingham, AL when it happened. My father, on the other hand, was more than likely raised differently (my grandparents were dead before I could know them). He won't say it, or act it: he's too politically correct. But then again he didn't really raise me.
At the time I was born in Univeristy of Penn hospital, there was another baby that was 2 months old. He was one of a set of twins and had been very small. His mother took his healthier brother and left him. My mother breast fed him along with me. She wanted to adopt him, but my father wouldn't hear of it, because the boy was black. He was afraid what the neighbors would think.
It was because it was ingrained in him from childhood to be racist or prejudiced, he could not accept this child. I wonder what happened to that boy, sometimes.
I'm sure everyone has a myriad of stories of prejudice and racism, however small or large, whites against blacks, blacks against whites, hispanics against blacks,etc etc, you get my point.
We need to teach our children to accept each other. We need to learn that our blood is all the same color and that we all come from the same Mother and Father. But just like members of a family, we don't always look alike. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. We are all of the Human race.
Posts: 463 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to the discussion, you coward. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, I payed you back for that in the other thread. Bringing it up again was overkill.
Heh. I'd say it's significant underkill. My feelings aren't hurt, I promise you -- and regardless of my inner child, what you provided in no way proves my innate racism.
Though it's a shame. A few more accusations of being a racist, and I might've become a Baptist or Republican.
(Now you can use some material for backing up your claims of prejudice...)
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote: Though it's a shame. A few more accusations of being a racist, and I might've become a Baptist or Republican.
(Now you can use some material for backing up your claims of prejudice...)
Equating Baptists and Republicans with racists is prejudice. I am aware of the fact that you were joking, but you deliberately remove Robespierre's perspective as an individual.
Robespierre's style of argument is completely defensive and reactionary, but he does not try to escape the discussion when it tries to explore the basic elements of racism.
I think that there is an element of his frustration and anger that you dismiss based on your own prejudice.
This statment from Leto is an attack:
quote: Some of this—like your attitude of capitalism as a panacea—are just going to take time and experience, instead of hypothetical and book-work experience.
It is similar to this one:
quote: Nice try to twist it. When you get out of college in four years, and finally enter a world that is not primarily viewed as an ideological...
Leto accuses Robespierre of being inexperienced and therefore invalid. He does not address an argument, or ask how it relates to racism.
Lalo:
quote:But what I wrote was genuinely offensive and unnecessary. I'm not proud that I wrote it, nor am I sure why -- Chris and Dan were doing a fine job fielding the questions you asked over, and over, and over again.
Oh, well. At least I get to read your response to it. Heh.
You apologize and then offend again...The psychology of racism is the psychology of hate. By finding out what Robespierre hates, you have also found what you hate. Hating hate is not self-justifying.
It's a little strange to me to think that you already know who Chris and Dan and Kevin and Patrick and Cedrios are. Racism aside, I think it's more likely that you were being reactionary towards Robespierre's opinions in defense of people you know.
I leave out inflammatory quotes from Robespierre because he is apparently already outnumbered.
I believe the main goal of people in this thread is to find a common goal that supersedes hate. When we have a common goal, this hate will disappear. When we get down to what that common goal was, Robespierre brought up Capitalism and making money. Debating against his belief in Capitalism and making money is a different issue, it is something Robespierre will have to defend and explain.
[disclaimer: chocodile is a human being and has not escaped the psychology of hate] Posts: 45 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: It's a little strange to me to think that you already know who Chris and Dan and Kevin and Patrick and Cedrios are. Racism aside, I think it's more likely that you were being reactionary towards Robespierre's opinions in defense of people you know.
Inversely, Do you know Robspierre? It seems you may. I was feeling a bit hot under the collar at him because it seems he tries to go for the jugular in an argument/discussion, but only gets the ankles. That may be why people are jumping on him.
quote: Leto accuses Robespierre of being inexperienced and therefore invalid. He does not address an argument, or ask how it relates to racism.
Inversely, Robespierre has refused to answer Leto's questions or back up his information and opinions.
Yes, people do know people on this forum. I joined 2 weeks ago and I know people on this forum because they go to the one I was at before, which I joined in August.
You just joined Thursday. Relax. Don't jump all over people's crap.
What you all need to do is forget about the "insults" and the unanswered questions and the speculations.
No one on here is a racist. I know a couple of you (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!) are throwing it at other people because you're angry, or irritated that they are not accepting your arguments. No one on here is a racist.
I've seen racists. They think that's the way to be, they don't even know it. A guy who lives around the corner comes to mind. He's old, people laugh at the post office when he tells his stupid, racist jokes, not because they think he's funny, but because they are in shock that he exists.
We all have prejudices and biases. They are more prevalent than racism. I tend to have a bias with stupid people. Loud people. Hypocritical people. People who air out their dirty underwear in public. Born-again christians who like to try and convert people. Etc.
Enough of the crap. Just get back to the original topic, before take a can of whoop-@$$ out in this thread.
Posts: 463 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Though it's a shame. A few more accusations of being a racist, and I might've become a Baptist or Republican.
(Now you can use some material for backing up your claims of prejudice...) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Equating Baptists and Republicans with racists is prejudice. I am aware of the fact that you were joking, but you deliberately remove Robespierre's perspective as an individual.
I what? How? I have to say, I don't think I've ever removed, deliberately or not, anyone's perspective as an individual.
quote:Robespierre's style of argument is completely defensive and reactionary, but he does not try to escape the discussion when it tries to explore the basic elements of racism.
I think that there is an element of his frustration and anger that you dismiss based on your own prejudice.
More, he builds ludicrous straw-men of racism and claims that's what the other side (e.g. John (Leto), Jeff (Rakeesh)) are arguing.
What prejudice is it I have that dismisses Rob's frustration and anger? Also, can you provide any examples of this? I'm not that bright, you see, and I need some context to decipher your post.
quote:Lalo:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But what I wrote was genuinely offensive and unnecessary. I'm not proud that I wrote it, nor am I sure why -- Chris and Dan were doing a fine job fielding the questions you asked over, and over, and over again.
Oh, well. At least I get to read your response to it. Heh.
You apologize and then offend again...The psychology of racism is the psychology of hate. By finding out what Robespierre hates, you have also found what you hate. Hating hate is not self-justifying.
To use Frisco's question to Black Fox, have you been licking toads?
I do not "offend again." I laughed because I had not read his replies the first time around, and was amused by his insistence that I was a racist who knows no black people. That would be what was posted directly beneath the part you quoted. Surely you didn't miss it.
And like I said, I'm not that bright. When you went into that whole bit about hating the things Rob hates because I found them, but it's not self-justifying, my mind went into a huh? state. It may never recover.
quote:It's a little strange to me to think that you already know who Chris and Dan and Kevin and Patrick and Cedrios are. Racism aside, I think it's more likely that you were being reactionary towards Robespierre's opinions in defense of people you know.
How is it strange? I've been here since 2001. I respect the hell out of Chris and Dan, but that doesn't mean I parrot them because I believe they need defense. In fact, much of my respect for them is eyewitnessing them standing their own in many, many arguments. If I disagree with Rob, it's because I disagree with them -- not because my friends do. Heh. Christ.
And believe me, I've had major throw-downs with most people here. Believe it or not, I was once as eager to fight as Rob. Only I was cuter and smarter about it. Also more honest and more charming. But still, same aggression.
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posted
Ok.... I'm really really sorry people but this thread has been beaten to death, as well as almost everyone who has participated!! Since it seems quite obvious nobody can have a legitimate discussion about this topic, let's drop it and stop bruising each other's egos!
lighten up and go reply in some other thread! Posts: 41 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
One point I would like to make is that I do not see racism as black and white, in the sense that you are either racist or not. There are a million shades of grey, IMHO.
From neo-nazis, skinheads, KKKers and other die-hard violent racists of all colors and creeds (their number is legion! ) to the sweetest, most saintly Christ or Budda-like individual who would cut off his or her own hand before prejudging (much less hurt) anyone because of the color of their skin (all too rare in this vale of tears, shamefully), humans have incredibly varied ways of perceiving and dealing with fellow humans. 95% of us, including Yours Truely fall in between these extremes, so calling anyone a racist is almost invariably disingenuous AND HYPOCRITICAL. Unless you are one of those saintly folks I have heard rumours of, but have yet to actually meet. I see little evidence of saintliness on this thread from anyone, certainly none from me. Worry about the mote in your own eye before you start hurling shrill accusations of "RACIST!" at others. That is not to say that you cannot or should not call people on it if you think they have racist attitudes or prejudice. This is how consciousness is raised. When racism is unacceptable it will cease to be a problem. I doubt I or potential grandchildren will live to see that day. But we can all strive towards it.
It's a well-established psychological fact that you are judged (and judge others) within 15 seconds of first meeting someone, based on physical attractivness, weight, clothing, smell, speech patterns, body language and facial expression, and of course, the color of your skin. This flavors all subsequent dealings with that person. It's only rare individuals who can re-assess others positively after a negative first impression.
Humans are pattern-seekers, we instinctively categorize, it is a huge part of our intelligence and why we have achieved some mastery over the world via mathematics and the sciences.
We are also intensely tribal- and family-oriented, it's why we distrust strangers.
The pattern-seeking and distrust of the unknown other leads, of course to sterotyping and racism, and ultimately to much violence and death. Each individual and society must fight these tendencies to raise their consciousness.
But some families and (most?) societies raise their children to be intolerant of others. This is what must change--societal and family encouragement of hatred and divisiveness. There is plenty that separates us from one another, you don't have to search hard to find it. But differences between us should be celebrated and cherished, not used as excuses for insane hatred and violence. We should also cherish each other as fellow travellers on a long, strange road together.
To quote/paraphrase the great storyteller Gene Wolfe: "We are all just weary travellers warming our hands and telling stories around a campfire, while hungry wolves circle our camp. But the camp is the Earth, the Sun is the fire. And the stars are the eyes of the hungry wolves."
Salaam alekum--may peace be upon you. Fight the power!! Alan
[edit: Thanks Sopwith!! I added some stuff for emphasis after your endorsement, but the thesis is the same.]
quote: Inversely, Robespierre has refused to answer Leto's questions or back up his information and opinions.
What questions? I have been asking for some of the Leto supporters here to take up his mantle and restate what it was that I didn't answer, or even restate what his point was to begin with.
This is part of the problem here. I am viewed as: Chocodile said:
quote: Robespierre's style of argument is completely defensive and reactionary,
I can see how this perception has come about. However, I have been one of the few people on this thread actually contributing to on-topic discussion. I have put forth real ideas on solutions and on root causes. Perhaps many of you disagree with my ideas. But tell me why you disagree, don't just tell me I am troll, or a typical white guy, or whatever else.
quote:More, he builds ludicrous straw-men of racism and claims that's what the other side (e.g. John (Leto), Jeff (Rakeesh)) are arguing.
Again, what are these people arguing? What are these questions I've been dodging, what straw-men have I created?
I will now restate some of the points I have attempted to make here.
Firstly, my view of the current racial tensions in this country. Let me clarify that I am from St.Louis, MO which is a hot spot for racial anger. I am not from a predominantly conservative city, as some have supposed. There will never be a republican mayor in St.Louis, it just will never happen. The Unions here have a stanglehold on labor. And Dick Gephardt is whipping all of these forces into a frenzy.
Now, from this standpoint, most of the racial problems which I see, are not whites oppressing blacks. Please understand I do not say that this does not exist, or isn't a problem, I just don't see it every day. Most of the racism I expirience comes in the form of an almost daily diatribe on how I as a white am oppressing the black community. The media in St.Louis is the willing co-conspiritor in the lie that whites are the sole cause of black poverty.
Every day we hear stories about how there are not enough minority owned contractors building Metro-link, or how whites have fled to the suburbs to flee the blacks because they are afraid. We hear about the deseg. busing program, and how its better to ship black kids out to the county to better schools than to fix the city schools.
All of these issues are used to bludgeon whites over the head. There is a great deal of anger at whites here. I could relate many personal expiriences but will spare you. The point is, I am assaulted with this concept of white guilt everyday. My natural reaction is to this is anger. I am told that it is MY fault that the entire north and east sides of the city, which are 95% black, are the poorest parts of the city. It is MY fault that crime is rampant there, and that business won't invest in these communities.
The conclusions I have come to are all effected by this environment. One point which Leto brought up, I am in partial agreement with. Currently, the school system is setup for failure. Inner-city schools have not the will to teach, they have been mollified by politicians who want the graduation rates to look better. However, I don't think, as Leto did, that this is the result of white males who don't care. The city government, which is in control of schools, is mostly black. Out of a desire to do good, they and those above them in state and federal gov. positions, have systematically ruined these schools, and the only hope of breaking the cycle of poverty.
The problem is the making of special rules, or even relaxing existing rules to give inner-city kids a break. Many of you can see how this results in poor academics. Well consider the same system of lowered standards applied to the black work force, and to black neighborhoods. When cities allow people to slide on building inspections, they are not helping anyone. The neighborhoods gradually lose value and wealth is destroyed from the inside out.
This culture which attempts to remove individual responsibility, in my opinion, has made the problem of black poverty much worse. To be sure, let me state that I know the initial problem WAS caused by whites. I do not deny this, nor do I deny that there are whites who are still terrible racists. However, the ball is now in the court of the black community. Only the private sector can generate lasting wealth. If the government teaches blacks to be sub-par by lowering the bar in schools and elsewhere, the problem is being purpetuated.
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posted
While I want to stay out of the whole Leto vs Robespierre Throw-down, let me say I think that was your best post on this thread, Robespierre. You spoke from the heart instead of using rhetoric, as did I in my last post.
Sometime we'll have to debate Laissez-faire vs Regulated Capitalism. But not today.
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quote:Humans are pattern-seekers, we instinctively categorize, it is a huge part of our intelligence and why we have achieved some mastery over the world via mathematics and the sciences.
I totally agree with this, and I believe it is the reason that common goals will be a large player in watching racism vanish. What happened to our nation's obsession with the space program? If you ask me, it should be the whole world's obsession.
Robespierre's quote:
quote: However, the ball is now in the court of the black community.
This is a dangerous statement that should probably be rephrased or omitted. It is completely contrary to your previous argument. The problems caused by the relaxing of standards are not only caused by the black community, nor is the solution theirs alone.
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quote: If the government teaches blacks to be sub-par by lowering the bar in schools and elsewhere, the problem is being purpetuated.
Now, this I agree with.
quote: What questions? I have been asking for some of the Leto supporters here to take up his mantle and restate what it was that I didn't answer, or even restate what his point was to begin with.
Leto's point was that you were making statements without backing them up. When he asked you to back them up, you told him that he was not worthy for you to back up your information. And since he has more than likely given up in this thread, why don't we leave him out of it, because it is not part of the discussion or the topic.
quote:However, I have been one of the few people on this thread actually contributing to on-topic discussion.
Everyone in here has been discussing the topic.
quote: Firstly, my view of the current racial tensions in this country. Let me clarify that I am from St.Louis, MO which is a hot spot for racial anger.
This actually makes a great deal of sense as to why your arguments have been as such---like your ideas on capitalism helping the racism situation.
You must remember, (we all must) that racism is not the same all over the country. I live in New Jersey, where, right now there are no really blatant issues of racism, aside from racial profiling a few years ago in the police department, but those profiles not only followed race, but class, ethnic background and social status as well.
The fact that racism is the way it is in your part of the country explains why you have been so vehenement in this thread about your views.
Just don't accuse anyone else in this thread of being racist. No one else is.
And as for your views of capitalism helping solve the racism problem, I think not. I stand by my idea, explained further by Morbo, that we need to teach our children to love and accept people, regardless of race or ethnic background.
Capitalism is a system based on competition and buying and selling. Granted, on paper, it is a raceless system, but in the real world, it doesn't always work that way. People who start out with less, well, it's hard for them to get more. They either think they cannot achieve it (having been in, and had friends in the lower classes, I can attest to it) and therefore do not try, or they try and fail because the way it is set up is so only the haves can get in.
For example, my sister was her class valedectorian, she is now a junior in college studying Chemical Engineering. My parents cannot help her in paying for the expenses after the scholarship (ie, books, food, etc). So, she works. She does not do as well as the other students because she is working when she should be studying or working on projects. THe other students parents can afford to pay for everything.
You see what I am getting at.
The only way to get out of racism is to teach people from birth. We all come from the same Mother.
quote: What happened to our nation's obsession with the space program? If you ask me, it should be the whole world's obsession
This is off topic, but I agree. I have an astronomy course right now, and am loving it.
quote: However, the ball is now in the court of the black community. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to agree with Choco, but I can see why you would feel this way if the situation is really that bad in St. Louis. You have to remember the ball is on ALL sides. Everyone needs to work together to alleviate this problem.
quote: My parents cannot help her in paying for the expenses after the scholarship (ie, books, food, etc). So, she works. She does not do as well as the other students because she is working when she should be studying or working on projects. THe other students parents can afford to pay for everything.
This is not a racial problem. This is a wealth problem. I had to deal with this same issue, and others, in a big way.
quote: I stand by my idea, explained further by Morbo, that we need to teach our children to love and accept people, regardless of race or ethnic background.
My statement of the problem as I see it, is not mutually exclusive with this. Teaching children this way is something that can and should happen no matter what the situation.
quote: Everyone needs to work together to alleviate this problem.
I agree with this. To the extent that other groups can help, by forcing the government to treat blacks like normal people, they should and are responsible to do so. If my statement about the ball being in the black community's court made people think this was not the case, then I mis-spoke. What I mean when I say that, is that no one can do the work of living and prospering for someone else. No matter what the hardships, the only way to be proud of what you have is to work for it, and to achieve and be the best without special help.
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quote: What I mean when I say that, is that no one can do the work of living and prospering for someone else. No matter what the hardships, the only way to be proud of what you have is to work for it, and to achieve and be the best without special help.
I see what you mean. And I have seen it, though it is not as blatantly prevalent as it may be in your area. In fact, I know it exists on a large level, but it is not a hot political topic right now.
As for the bit about my sister, that was not an argument about racism, it was about why capitalism would not work in fixing racism right now.
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) to the sweetest, most saintly Christ or Budda-like individual who would cut off his or her own hand before prejudging (much less hurt) anyone because of the color of their skin (all too rare in this vale of tears, shamefully), humans have incredibly varied ways of perceiving and dealing with fellow humans. 95% of us, including Yours Truely fall in between these extremes, so calling anyone a racist is almost invariably disingenuous AND HYPOCRITICAL. Unless you are one of those saintly folks I have heard rumours of, but have yet to actually meet. I see little evidence of saintliness on this thread from anyone, certainly none from me. Worry about the mote in your own eye before you start hurling shrill accusations of "RACIST!" at others. That is not to say that you cannot or should not call people on it if you think they have racist attitudes or prejudice. This is how consciousness is raised. When racism is unacceptable it will cease to be a problem. I doubt I or potential grandchildren will live to see that day. ![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
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But we can all strive towards it. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
