posted
Alright, so I've always thought there was /some/ similarities between the two worlds, but I'm half way through Order of the Phoenix and i'm getting a little ticked..
Cards World // Rowlings World:
Ender is part of a small group of special kids // Harry is part of a small group of special kids
Ender is specialer than the special kids // Harry is specialer than the special kids
Ender escapes from his home to attend a special school when Graff comes // Harry escapes from his home to attend a special school when Hagrid comes
Battle School // Magic School
Seperated by animal Armies // Seperated by animal halls
Battle Room Game // Quidditch Game
Ender Starts a Special Training Session Group for the Battles // Harry Starts a Special Defense Against Dark Arts Group
D.A. (Dragon Army), Ender's the leader // D.A. (Dumbledores Army) Harry's the leader
Ender has to battle the Buggers which the IF fought before Ender was born // Harry has to fight Voldemort which was fought by the Order before Harry was born
oh, not to forget their special mental connections with their enemy
I'll think of more and find more as I read.. Any opinions or additions?
Posts: 132 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
No no no. There is no relationship whatsoever between the two series.
They serve entirely different needs; Ender is all about sacrifice and Harry Potter is ... all about.... sacrifice..
Wait a second.
OSC call your lawyer.
Just kidding. They definitely both feed the same need in readers, but the similarities you have mentioned are superficial. In word and tone these are very different series.
You wouldn't accuse Star Wars of ripping off Dune, or Le Morte D'Arthur, I'm sure.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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Ender Wiggin has 4 syllables. Harry Potter has 4 syllables.
Notice how Ender and Harry both have 5 letters, and Wiggin and Potter both have 6 letters. Notice how both last names have a double consonant in the middle. Notice how both last names go Consonant, Vowel, Double Consonant, Vowel, Consonant.
... that's all I have, since I haven't read the Potter books.
posted
personally i dont think that JKR would copy of osc books simply because they are both STILL writing parts of the series...kinda hard to do that i think...anything past the first books would have to be coincidence...IMO
Posts: 35 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
But they have VERY similar origins. It would be interesting to read Ender’s Game at the same time as the 1st Potter and look for all the ways they are similar. Then look at who came up with the concepts first. (hett heeemmm…Card). I'm into OSC and my wife is into Harry Potter and we both agree that there are several similarities...all of which are a little beyond coincidence. I'm sure this idea will be a little more obvious and discussed when the Ender movie comes out.
It's time to go to war with the Potter people!
Posts: 64 | Registered: Jul 2005
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1. Ender doesn't have any friends through most of EG, he has soldiers and classmates. Bean only becomes his friend right as Ender before battle school. Harry is part of the trio the entire series, with other friends on the side.
2. Bean might have replaced Ender at any moment, where Harry is the only one who can fulfill the prophecy. Not only that, Harry isn't the best at everything at Hogwarts, where Ender IS the best (excluding Bean).
3. Ender didn' "escape" his home. He may have escaped Peter, but it cost him his parents and Valentine. Harry had no regret leaving the Dursleys.
4. Battle school is only for the elite children, while Hogwarts is for all wizards (in Britain).
5. I'm not even going to bother with that.
6. The battle room is their life in battle school, and quidditch is just a sport (Battle Room world cup )
7.To be continued
Posts: 60 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
They're both stories about a child who feels very isolated because of his gifts, but discovers that those gifts make him awesome. This is a story that naturally resonates with both children and adults, many of whom have experienced the first part, without every really experiencing the second part.
It's not surprising that two of the most successful young-adult sagas in modern Western culture address this idea, and therefore have parallels between them. It's a very powerful, universally-resonant idea.
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
But they are still very different, in important ways. Ender's Game was not written for children. It is much darker and more hopeless for its protagonist, who really doesn't have anyone in the world that he can rely on. Even the person who loves him the most ends up working for the adults who, despite loving him themselves, still choose to exploit him. Ender is sacrificed almost completely for the good of others, against his will, and nearly loses his mind as a result. It's a tragedy.
Harry Potter is much more of a heroic story about a character who consciously overcomes evil with a company of loyal allies at his side.
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Actually both series are a rip-off of The Secret Garden and A Little Princess by Frances Hodgsen Burnett. Changing the sex of the main character didn't fool me! The orphanhood (or isolation from the family), the loneliness, the abuse, the unique talents and essential goodness of the main characters, the fact that in the end they triumph over adversity, the emphasis of the world of teenagers/ children over the world of adults . . .
The wand in HP and the "desk" in EG are clear parallels to the talismanic doll that gives Sara Crewe such comfort in ALP; the secret history of Colin and the Garden in TSG are prefigurations of the ultimate secret in EG (kept by ADULTS, just as in TSG!!!), as well as the secrets in HP which we have yet to discover. (Remember how secretive the ADULT Albus Dumbledore has been throughout?!?)
If I were OSC or JKR, I would contact my lawyer, as her estate clearly has grounds for a suit.
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
the Harry Potter series isn't over yet. Neither is the Enderverse.
In a larger sense, The first HP book is for kids. Granted, the later ones are for a slightly older audience. Ender's Game is for people in their mid-to-late teens to early-to-mid-30s. I first read it at age 13, and it appealed to me for re-readings until my mid-20s.
They read very differently to me. Does anyone really think JKR stole from OSC?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Rat Named Dog is Geoff. People who know each other's real names call them by them all the time.
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I don't think that was intended as sarcastic. I think it was in reference to people who know other people's name within the forum use their first name. But hey, I could be off. haaha
Posts: 8 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: Rat Named Dog is Geoff. People who know each other's real names call them by them all the time.
All I needed was that first bit, not the sarcastic response that followed.
No, I don't think that was meant sarcastically, but rather as a statement of this forum. That kind of thing doesn't usually happen at most forums.
Posts: 290 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: Rat Named Dog is Geoff. People who know each other's real names call them by them all the time.
All I needed was that first bit, not the sarcastic response that followed.
No, I don't think that was meant sarcastically, but rather as a statement of this forum. That kind of thing doesn't usually happen at most forums.
I dunno, I guess it just seemed like it because it's such an obvious statement to make, like duh, people call each other by their names.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
No, no, no, Brinestone doesn't make snarky remarks like that to people she doesn't know. Plus, it's good to not assume the voice you read it with is the voice they wrote it with.
Plus, Ruth's got some solid connections to some of the best debaters on the board.
Posts: 1660 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Oh I know the thing about the voice you read it with thing - I've had some encounters with people on AIM because of it - and generally I don't. I guess I was just in a snarky reading mood today.
posted
(by the way, kojabu -- "Puppy" is Geoff as well. Same guy as Rat Named Dog, different username)
Posts: 9538 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
for some reason I knew that Puppy was Geoff, I think it was mentioned in some other thread some other time.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Is he OSC's son? There was this part of one thread where people thought it was cute that Puppy called OSC "OSC" and I was like huh, and I know OSC has a son named Geoff... soo... deductive logic?
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I read a thread like that (over a year ago) except he was posting as Geoff Card & was referring to Mr. Card as "Card."
(I normally refer to an author by his or her last name, too, but since I'm in Mr. Card's house I try to be more respectful -- or perhaps more personal. ) And as another aside, I always get a giggle when kids in my class write about authors in reviews or their journals and refer to them by their first names. Understand, I'm not making fun; they don't know the convention yet and I teach them. Still, it's cute when they write about how "Edgar" had weird ideas or that their favorite poem by "Emily" is "Nobody." And it's nice, too. It feels like they're reaching out toward some sort of personal relationship.
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
You're all wrong. Harry Potter is a rip-off of Alvin Maker. Both of their arch enemies can control people.
Except the Unmaker is a billion times worse because he's more than flesh and blood.
And Alvin Maker never went to any school and he still knows more tricks than our young friend, Mr. Potter. :-P
Posts: 161 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Well no crumpets Blackthorne.. of course she couldn't just take the exact same story and rewrite it.. well, yes, she could- but just because she took the ideas and formed them to fit her world, doesn't mean she didn't hi-jack them from Ender's Game- I mean really, "Oh I know! Harry, why don't you teach us to use defenses against the dark arts!"
-- starts as a small thought, and though Harry thought most people despised him, lots of people showed up to learn what he knew
Ender starts his little group practices, and lots of people he thought wouldn't come and came as well to be taught by him --
This is what tipped my iceberg above the surface.. - I mean, when the fifth Potter movie comes out, and Ender's Game the movie comes out- you can't say people won't raise a brow or two..
posted
I've now made about three connections between the HP series and the Shadow series in the discussion thread on the other side. It's a fun game I play.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Now that I know who Geoff is - er..sorta - the one thing I want to say is that who has said that she's even read Ender's Game and the Shadow series, etc. I'm not saying she has/hasn't, but there are a lot of books out there that many people haven't read, authors included.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Haha I was distracted by who Geoff was so I didn't post anything about the actual thread topic. Still not 100% clear on who he is, aside from having multiple usernames. Anyway.
We don't know if Rowling has read Ender's Game; if she hasn't then anything that was "stolen" is just a coincidence.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Heh heh ... yeah, I was wondering why you were using the third-person FEMININE singular pronoun to refer to ME. I mean, maybe you could use that pronoun to refer to the OTHER two members of my family, but ...
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Alright, so I've always thought there was /some/ similarities between the two worlds, but I'm half way through Order of the Phoenix and i'm getting a little ticked..
Cards World // Rowlings World:
Ender is part of a small group of special kids // Harry is part of a small group of special kids
Ender is specialer than the special kids // Harry is specialer than the special kids
Ender escapes from his home to attend a special school when Graff comes // Harry escapes from his home to attend a special school when Hagrid comes
Battle School // Magic School
Seperated by animal Armies // Seperated by animal halls
Battle Room Game // Quidditch Game
Ender Starts a Special Training Session Group for the Battles // Harry Starts a Special Defense Against Dark Arts Group
D.A. (Dragon Army), Ender's the leader // D.A. (Dumbledores Army) Harry's the leader
Ender has to battle the Buggers which the IF fought before Ender was born // Harry has to fight Voldemort which was fought by the Order before Harry was born
oh, not to forget their special mental connections with their enemy
I'll think of more and find more as I read.. Any opinions or additions?
Most of these are, as was said previously, superficial likenesses. Here's my $0.02 on the points you bring up, so take it or leave it.
*SPOILERS* Fairly warned be ye. This contains some spoilers from both the new novel, HBP, and since the topic creator hasn't finished OotP, this contains spoilers from that too. SO, IF YOU HAVEN'T READ HALF-BLOOD PRINCE, READ NO FURTHER *SPOILER*
1. Ender is more of a loner by nature, from what *I* understood of the book when I read it. This of course, may not be true; I've only had the time to read Ender's Game twice, the second re-read having been some time ago, so forgive me if my memory of the books is a bit off. Anyways, Harry is not so much of a loner. He enjoys having friends (though, only ones that aren't superficial and like him because he is who he is) and tried hard to keep them intact, despite the rocky moments they had.
2. Harry is, in fact, not really "specialer" than other kids by birth, which Ender was. Harry was given several of his powers when Voldemort's curse "marked him as his equal" and gave him the scar. An example of a power that makes him "specialer" is his ability to speak and understand Parseltongue. And in addition to this, Harry doesn't want to save the entire world. more or less, he wants vengeance against Voldemort, Snape, and Bellatrix for the deaths of his parents, Sirius, and now Dumbledore.
3. Ender left someone he loved behind, as well as his parents, who he at least had respect for (I can no longer remember if he still loved them before he went away). Harry had neither of his parents, and his adoptive family he could not wait to get away from.
4. It's important to note that no matter what, the protagonists of both novels are children/teens, and as such, any place of learning they go to will be called a "school." What they learned their and for what reason differed as well. Ender learned realistic things, such as math, science, and the like. Harry learns whatever he chooses to learn, and most of it is not-realistic at all. The most realistic classes there are History of Magic and Arithmancy. Also important to note is that acceptance into Hogwarts isn't mandated by the government; anyone who was a witch or wizard was able to attend the school (or others like it, since there ARE other schools, and there is only ONE Battle School).
5. Actually, you're slightly off. In Hogwarts, the houses are named for the four founders of Hogwarts, not animals. the animals they most preferred, however, did become the mascot for that House. However, each person is in that particular House for a reason, and it is because of a personality trait, the knowledge they have, or the choices they make that separate them (such as bravery and loyalty going to Gryffindor). In Ender's Game, the team assignments held little significance of this nature.
6. These two are probably the least alike that you put up. The whole point behind the Battle Room games were that it helped teach strategy to students and gave those overseeing it to spot who was most valuable to them. Quidditch is merely a sport, a sidetrack. Heck, any novel that has a sport the characters play that is made up could be compared to the Battle Room game if you look at it the way you are. It's really not that similar. Also, people are hand picked and a very small minority of students play Quidditch, whereas everyone but Launchies has to play the game.
7. This one is also kind of iffy. Ender, from my recollection, starts it with just a very small handful of people, in the effort to get better during their freetime. Harry starts his because they have little alternative: OWL exams were coming up, and Umbridge kept from teaching them anything of value in DADA classes, so he took matters into his own hands. Also, note Graff and the other superiors only stopped Ender from holding his sessions to try and keep Ender from bonding with people, to challenge him (again, as I recall) and only after they'd been held for some time. Harry's meetings were illegal from the beginning, and Umbridge did it indirectly, to keep Harry and the other Gryffindors from playing Quidditch, and to keep students from plotting against her.
8. Note that Dragon Army was something Ender was more or less forced into, and that Dumbledore's Army was made of sheer will. Also, the phrase "Dumbledore's Army" comes from the fact that Fudge said himself he thought, at some point, that Dumbledore was assembling the students to form an army to overthrow him. The students knew Fudge thought this and used the term as an act of defiance.
Also, Dumbledore's Army ended up dying off because it was betrayed by someone from within, whereas Dragon Army was killed off when Ender was forcibly taken from it.
9. Here, this is kind of an interesting point. However, you should realize that the Buggers aren't and never were immortal. They could be easily killed off, albeit destroying all of them was a huge and dangerous feat. Voldemort is not immortal per se, but for all intents and purposes, he basically is. He split his soul into seven pieces, and only through destroying all seven can he finally be killed.
Also, the fight against Voldemort has always been defensive: both times, it was defensive, whereas the time Ender fought and killed them, it was offensive.
10. This one is a bit odd to answer as I recall very little of it, and was never able to read the rest of Ender's story (Speaker for the Dead and on)so I may not answer this one as well as I'd hoped.
Basically, consider how it came about. Harry's insight into Voldemort's mind are strictly involuntary, as neither he, nor Voldemort, really want to have that connection. Also, the connection was not forger willingly. It was only made when the killing curse rebounded against Harry and hit Voldemort. The connection between Ender and the Buggers was initiated by the Buggers willingly.
Extra: And I'd also like to point out that Harry becomes famous for something he did not do, which was breaking Voldemort's power; his mother's act of sacrifice for him put a special magic on him that caused the killing curse to rebound and hit Voldemort instead. Ender, while he didn't know what he did, still committed that act that made him famous.
Hope I did those points some justice. Onto the next (phew!)
quote:Well no crumpets Blackthorne.. of course she couldn't just take the exact same story and rewrite it.. well, yes, she could- but just because she took the ideas and formed them to fit her world, doesn't mean she didn't hi-jack them from Ender's Game- I mean really, "Oh I know! Harry, why don't you teach us to use defenses against the dark arts!"
-- starts as a small thought, and though Harry thought most people despised him, lots of people showed up to learn what he knew
Ender starts his little group practices, and lots of people he thought wouldn't come and came as well to be taught by him --
This is what tipped my iceberg above the surface.. - I mean, when the fifth Potter movie comes out, and Ender's Game the movie comes out- you can't say people won't raise a brow or two..
Judas
You're forgetting how many millions of books have been written over the years. I mean, seriously! At some point, especially now that we mass produce books and the number of authors increases every year, idea begin overlapping. I suppose Halo (the video game) rips off of Ringworld, right? They both have ring-shaped worlds, so they MUST be ripping each other off!
Well, no. Harry is a teen, and therefore, goes through what most teens all go through. School. It's no surprise that Ender, a child and teen (as the book progresses) goes through a school too. And if both characters weren't special, the plot would collapse because it relies on the protagonists to be different; most books do.
Hope that helps a bit. Anyone feel free to correct any mistakes I might have made on the bits about Ender's Game, and if any other Potter nuts see a mistake I might've made about HP, feel free to jump in too.
Edited because I can't order my paragraphs correctly, it seems. X)
Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Puppy: Heh heh ... yeah, I was wondering why you were using the third-person FEMININE singular pronoun to refer to ME. I mean, maybe you could use that pronoun to refer to the OTHER two members of my family, but ...
Oops, I guess the fact that I was tired made me miss a few proper names in there. But who you are... still a question.
Nice post Hitoshi, I'd just add that the further you get in the Speaker series, the more Ender tries to initiate contact with the Buggers. Harry doesn't sit around trying to perform Occulemency on someone whose location is unknown.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
It is conceivable that JKR read Ender's Game - it was published in Britain during a time when she was reading in the genre. But any similarities can be explained either as puppy did - both authors tapping into human universals (cf. Northrop Frye) - or as the kind of unconscious influence that happens all the time, where one writer's story gets absorbed into the worldview of another, and the second writer then "rewrites" a story that has become an important part of his or her psyche.
It's the way I "rewrote" Lloyd Biggle Jr.'s "Tunesmith" as "Unaccompanied Sonata." I had forgotten the existence of this story, though it was very important to me at the time of reading it. The similarities are real, but "Unacc.Son." is still mine. If (and that's a big IF) JKR read Ender's Game, and it had anything to do with her development of the ideas in the HP series, then I'm very proud to have had some role in the development of the thinking of such a wonderful writer. But HP is hers, and hers alone.
Nobody needs to call their lawyers, in other words. Ideas belong to whoever believes in them and cares about them. Only when actual LANGUAGE is taken uncredited from another work is there any case for plagiarism. I could take the plot of Gone with the Wind and create my own pastiche and as long as I didn't use names or language or otherwise damage the commercial value of the original, there would be no case against me.
As for Frances Hodgson Burnett - her works are in the public domain, so we can steal them ALL WE LIKE (nya-ha-ha). Yes, I know you were doing reductio ad absurdum. But it's worth pointing out, for sheer amusement, that I did not read any FHB until after Ender's Game had been published. Long after. Now, of course, I intend to steal from FHB all the time ...
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
I'm still going to be suspicious if the 7th book turns out to be Harry Potter and the Giant's Drink...
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Hey, Mr. Card, did you know that nya is the Japanese equivalent of a cat mewing? ...at least that's what I've been told. 0_0
Posts: 290 | Registered: Sep 2002
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