quote:The irony of our culture-shaped "beauty search" (and it goes both ways) is that by the time we're sixty, we're all old and decrepit-looking <grin> and most of us have put on weight, so why oh why did it matter so much when we were younger what people LOOKED like?
We agree, which is why we wish to reply that we would like you to write a book with a heroine who is not beautiful looking. (We would prefer short and a bit overweight, for obvious reasons, but tall and a bit overweight or average height and a bit overweight would be good too.)
Is anyone else with us?
-- the residents of chez Maxwell
Posts: 1512 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, after all, you have to live with people for twenty years at least before they get old. And besides, you can always divorce 'em at fifty and get yourself a fresh-faced trophy wife.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, actually you should read all of Bujold's books, just on general principle. But I don't think Ista is particularly dumpy; after all, she hasn't been eating well for quite a few years now. And in her youth she was considered beautiful enough to marry a king; it's not as though her family connections were that great.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am trying to remember... I think it is an OSC short story, and I can't remember the actual name of it. It is a story that binds together the legends of Atlantis/Noah/Gilgamesh. If you are familiar with the novel "Pastwatch" by OSC, it touches on the story. The short story expounds on it.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
But dumpy!=skinny. Dumpy=at least slightly overweight. His point was only that if she was half-starved, by definition, she was *not* dumpy.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
Edit: I was looking up adjectives in the dictionary out of curiosity. I didn't know that the word "drab" had strong "prostitute" connotations! I just thought it meant "colorless", "gloomy", or "greyish".
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
You can probably find it by clicking OSC Library up at the top, and then looking through the short story drop down list.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was reading this column yesterday and thought about posting on this topic.
The column is a review of Dove's "Real Women" campaign, which features models from size 4 through 12. This comment made my blood boil:
quote:Sadly, this is not a winning play for the long haul. If Dove keeps running ads like this, women will get bored with the feel-good, politically correct message. Eventually (though perhaps only subconsciously), they'll come to think of Dove as the brand for fat girls. Talk about "real beauty" all you want—once you're the brand for fat girls, you're toast.
Women sized 4 to 12 are considered FAT?!?! What's the deal with that? I've always considered myself fat, even when I was in junior high school - looking back of course, I wasn't. I'm overweight now, but I'll never be below a size 10 at best. I promise you that if I ever get down to a size 10, I won't have an extra ounce of fat on me. With my bone structure, a size 12 is certainly the best I could ever hope for, but apparently that's still FAT to the rest of the world.
It doesn't bother me for myself that much, but I have 5 daughters who have my build. My two oldest daughters are just shy of 6 feet tall. They're not FAT, they're BIG and they're BEAUTIFUL, and even campaigns aimed at them, supposedly trying to make themselves feel better about themselves, still tells them that they're fat...
It's just so wrong. Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Curious, I've read that story in the less-detailed Pastwatch version, but I never thought of it as the Atlantis story; to me it was the Noah story.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, it was mostly Noah. But it was suppose to also be the origins of the Atlantis and Gilgamesh stories.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes, bev, I noticed on re-reading it. I'm just commenting on how different the first impressions, or the classification-words, of the two readers were. Noah and Atlantis are mentioned, I think, about equally often in the story; there is no reason to prefer the one over the other, as far as I can see. Yet I, the rabid atheist, filed it under 'Noah', a Bible story; while you, a believer, put it under 'Atlantis', which comes to us from the pagan Greeks. You would think the opposite more natural.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
The way I figure it, is you can see the differences of something easier than the similarities. So you, being the rabid atheist, see the Bible influence. While the Christian sees Pagan influence. It makes sense in my head- I can't just put it in words.
Posts: 980 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I realize that this conversation has moved away from the issue raised at the top ... but i have lots of women in my books who aren't particularly beautiful. and those who ARE beautiful aren't nothing BUT beautiful, and often find their beauty to be a burden. I have sympathetic female characters whom men don't always find attractive, or who wish they were more attractive than they are, etc.
Maybe it's confusing because I don't describe my characters much, and so you supply the assumption that the character is beautiful when i don't say so. (Though of course there are characters where i do say so.)
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999
| IP: Logged |
I haven't been around for a long time, but I just popped in and your post interested me.
As Mr. Card noted many of his characters are not "beautiful" women in our present culture's sense of the word. In fact, my (unattractive?) aging mind can't really remember any characters that he does describe as beautiful - although he says that he does on some occasion. Oh wait, the woman in Teasure Box - Madeleine - is described as beautiful, but then ... SPOILER ... she's not real, hmmmmm...? Interesting.
But back to other major characters,I never pictured any of these women as "beautiful": Peggy, Novinha, Petra, Virlomi, Tagiri, the realtor lady who is the romantic interest in Homebody.
In fact, Alvin's Peggy is described as plain as a child but she later learns how to be "beautiful" from the inside out. She works to achieve a beauty that is not simply physical attributes, but is the result of how she perceives herself, presents herself to others and more importantly how she treats others as if they were interesting, attractive and important to her. Not in a manipulative way but in a genuine way. And in doing this, Peggy finds that in everyone she can find something (even Calvin) noble, worthy of praise. She makes others feel good and beautiful about themselves - thus they are attracted to her presence. Her inner beauty of spirit transforms her physical looks.
I think that's one of the best role models of beauty that any woman - young or old - can have.
Posts: 874 | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:the realtor lady who is the romantic interest in Homebody
Well, she disappears halfway through the book, to be replaced by the REAL romantic interest, who's a lot younger than she is.
Posts: 1512 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
quote:Her inner beauty of spirit transforms her physical looks.
That's one of those lovely fantasies that happens in books, but not in real life.
quote:I think that's one of the best role models of beauty that any woman - young or old - can have.
Why do women in books HAVE to transform their physical looks at all? Why does the plain child in every book have to become gorgeous as she enters womanhood? And what does that say about plain little girls in real life who grew up to be plain adults?
Posts: 1512 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
But that's the thing Yozhik! I don't know that Peggy really changed physically but mentally. She changed they way she felt about herself and others.
I think it's a natural instinct in all humans - male or female - to want to be attractive to the opposite sex. One of those built in, keep the species going things much like self preservation. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be attractive to others. It is when it is taken to the extreme that it becomes destructive and outright dangerous (ie, anorexia, bulimia, extreme makeovers).
Many "beautiful people" are downright unattractive because of their attitude, personality, and way they treat others. And vice versa. I never imagined that Peggy changed so much as that she maximized her looks so that she felt pretty, attractive, and desirable to other people.
We choose our own transformations. What we are willing to do to become what we want to be. A plain adult may exercise, change their hairstyle or makeup. A disfigured adult may opt for plastic surgery. An attractive neurotic who always picks abusive partners may go to a psychologist. Etc.
I should have said "that's THE best role model of beauty or attractiveness that any PERSON can have."
I'm sorry you are feeling sad and lonely lately. Unfortunately it's often when we are sad, lonely and neediest that we put off other people - thus making us even more sad, lonely and needy. Mostly I think it's because they really don't know what to do for us and unconsciously fear that our sadness will "infect" them. It's not us they are avoiding, but the fear that our sadness will bring out their own sadness.
Enough though!I hope that today things will be brighter for you!
Posts: 874 | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
(We would prefer short and a bit overweight, for obvious reasons, but tall and a bit overweight or average height and a bit overweight would be good too.) 
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
