posted
The stuff about music is classic OSC, perceptive and witty. Well, witty anyway. I am not sure how much perception it takes to realize that much of the atonal "experiminetal" music being produced today is terrible. Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow. You're insulting even when you're being complimentary. That's a difficult trick. Well done you.
Posts: 866 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Maybe he just has a lack of good communication skills. Like this kid in my Gym class he shouts obscenities for no reason. He cussed me out the other day and I replied with:
"You shouldn't speak like that. Its generally unacceptable in most cultures and languages. You know like French, English, Spanish, English, Gaelic, English, Latin, English, Old English, English, Elvish, Portugese, English. You know all of those."
He walked away kind of confused.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am really trying to figure this out: I agree with someone, point out that their comments, which were intended to be funny, were, in fact, humorous. I even put a "smilie" which I detest to point out that my joke was supposed to be funny. I have found that people cannot recognize humour without such creatures anymore, or, apparently with them.
Believing as I do that only two things are funny, birth and everything that comes after, I have a hard time not making a joke. I shall have an even harder time avoiding laughing at other peoples jokes.
Perhaps internet fora are not the best places to ever try to make a joke, although I have managed it before.
This should be added to the rules of hatrack:
quote: Rule Number I: Everything OSC has ever said is serious and shall be treated with reverence. The community of Hatrack shall punish those who demonstrate less than adequate awe by means of getting angry and upset. This shall prevent in potentially humorous statements from becoming humorous, thus mitigating their effect.
quote: I am not sure how much perception it takes to realize that much of the atonal "experiminetal" music being produced today is terrible.
I have a feeling she was talking about this bit here. The bit about "not sure how much perception." In a way, you are saying that OSC has no perception. If that makes any sense.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
It's obvious that you're trying to make a positive comment.
I heard once that humor is most always mean. In an attempt to be funny, it is tough not to tweak someone's nose. I think that here, it's okay to tease someone when we know you like them, but even a light backhanded slap will be looked on as an attack if we know that you don't like the person.
Keep trying. This fora communication stuff is alot of work, but it's worth the learning curve.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Steve, no, it doesn't. Let us analyze this sentence, shall we?
It starts with the basic premise that 'atonal "experimental" music being produced today is terrible.'
It then emphasizes this by pointing out that this fact can be determined easily without need for ponderous thinking or exceptional mental skills. This does not in any way mean that one who determines this is lacking mental prowess.
I might say that "It does not take much perception to realize that the sky is often blue." However, people of all intelligence levels, except for the most seriously retarded know this. The fact that the average kindergartner knows this does not mean that an adult who is likewise informed about the hue of the lower atmospheres has the intellectual maturity of the average kindergartner. The analogy to the sky is imperfect, because it requires the knowledge of what "blue" is, and the experience of seeing the sky, whereas, determining good or bad music requires knowledge to both, as music can only be determined relativisticly. A more subtle analogy might be to say that "I know that the sky is greyer when it is about to rain" which requires comparison. But this statement is also imperfect, because it still requires a knowledge of the concepts of "blue" and "grey."
Is my single sentence made more clear by the adding of this text? Perhaps all sentences should be footnoted with paragraphs, but that might lead to a spiral in which nothing but linguistic nuance is ever communicated. Such a system would, in addition to killing comedy, make shouting 'run' take much more time than is usually advisable in situations where the imperative exclamation of 'run' is needed.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Atonal experimental music really sucks. All that ooo wa ooo wa oooo wa ooo stuff with saws playing and out of key violins and rubber bands. Mostly it's only good to be used in boring European movies with close ups old actresses and sex just because that's the ONLY interesting thing about the whole movie.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's a sad commentary on the state of affairs around here that even the obvious humor of the first post is treated like a grave insult and the person who made the joke is required to explain, over and over, that it was a joke.
If you have no sense of humor, that's fine. But please do not attribute your failing to the rest of us. The comment about not needing perception was so obviously not an attempt to say that OSC is not perceptive that I am inclined to believe you people are willfully reading it that way just because you feel like having something to argue about.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I do not think Pelegius was purposely trying to be insulting. However, I think he was fully aware of the reaction that some people would have and still posted it anyway knowing full well that people were going to be offended by it.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I do not see how that sentence could possibly be interpreted as an attack on OSC, except as a means of deliberately picking a fight.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
"I even put a "smilie" which I detest to point out that my joke was supposed to be funny. I have found that people cannot recognize humour without such creatures anymore, or, apparently with them."
Or maybe you're just not funny? Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Pressed rat and warthog have closed down their shop. They didn't want to; 'twas all they had got. Selling atonal apples, amplified heat, And pressed rat's collection of dog legs and feet.
Is that the song you're talking about?
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Number 1, I think we're all just a bit annoyed that, of course Pelegius's favorite article would be one that could potentially make people feel bad.
Number 2, Did it occur to you, Pelegius, that Princess's response was ALSO possibly a joke, this time at your expense instead of an atonal composer? Maybe you just needed an emoticon to help explain it.
Posts: 368 | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was actually kidding in my first post, as well. And then I was trying to explain Princess's post. If I've caused some sort of frustration, I apologize.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
So yeah. Getting back to atonal music... I'm a big fan of Eric Whitacre, too. We're singing Lux Arumque in my choir, I think it's positively angelic. Right on, Earendil18.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
I read it as "This column was perceptive and witty. No wait, just witty." In a derogatory way. And I was making an attempt (albiet a poor one) at humor. Read it again (this time with a smiley).
You're insulting even when you're being complimentary. That's a difficult trick. Well done you. Posts: 866 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey, can someone provide a link to some music that fits the description of "atonal experimental music"? I have heard the descriptions, but I admit I am lacking in music sophistication and have never actually heard anything that sounds like the description. Too much "Appalachian Spring" I'm sure. Thanks.
Posts: 196 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I found it a direct attack on the music and not OSC, as he was actually AGREEING with OSC that the music isn't very good. Wow, even when you agree with OSC you are seen as disagreeable. Sorry you are attacked so much around here for no conceivable reason.
Princess L, I would agree with you if it wasn't for the second sentence. That is the modifier of the first sentence.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Earendil18: Maybe that composer was throwing bricks, but
Eric Whitacre+Brigham Young University singers=Beautiful.
He does some crazy tone clusters, but they're thrown in-between solid stable chords.
Whitacre also adapted many of his own choral works over to the instrumental world, such as "Sleep" and "Cloudburst". These are beautiful works that I've had opportunity to play in my university's Symphonic Band. I don't know that I would classify Whitacre as an atonal composer. Yes, he employs 'crazy tone clusters,' but much of what he writes is actually more of a bi-tonality or poly-tonality. Though, if you asks me, he pulls this off much better than the likes of Charles Ives.
If I remember correctly, Whitacre was fond of using the bitonality as a dissonance that resolves to a single tonality in much the same way that strictly tonal composures use the dissonance of a suspension to resolve into a consonant harmony. Interestingly, this technique was severely frowned upon in the early days of polyphonic music (music in which there is more than one note at any given time), prompting consequences as severe as excommunication or even execution! My point? Today's standard practices were once so radical that even throwing fruit would have been a MILD response.
Nevertheless, I tend to agree that atonality for atonality's sake is pointless, aggravating, and non-sensical.
A few examples:
Serialism is a type of atonal music developed in the early 20th Century, basically as a counter-movement to the souped up, extra-emotional, super-Romantic music of the 19th Century. Sparing you all the details, it's essentially a system of composition derived through the clever use of manipulating notes as numbers. While the concept is fascinating, the end result usually sounds like a 3-year-old kid randomly hitting keys on the piano.
Then there's aleatoric music. This is music that makes use of ambient noise and sound effects to create an impression. John Cage, a prememinent 20th-century composer "wrote" a piece that consisted of a four minutes and thirty three seconds of the performer sitting silently on stage. The music? Entirely the ambient noise created by the audience, including foot-shuffles, coughing, outdoor traffic, and the hum of the electric lighting. Appropriately enough, the song's title refers to the length of the piece.
There are plenty of new compositions out there that are simply wonderful. If you haven't heard it yet, I recommend you listen to Morten Lauridson's "O Magnum Mysterium." This style hearkens back to the Renaissance era of musical composition, but was actually written in 1993. While the composer uses many modern sounding harmonies and dissonances, he stays within the original key (no extraneous sharps/flats/naturals) except for two instances. Wonderful piece.
posted
I'll look up Whitacre. Never heard anything of his.
But if he has solid chords with occasional bits of dissonance, that's not "atonal." Atonal music has rules of its own; music can have lots of dissonance and still make sense - i.e., tonality <grin>.
Pelegius's comment was not a snipe at me, as far as I could tell. He was correcting himself. He said something nice, and then realized that "perceptive" wasn't proven in this case by my essay, because it doesn't take perception to realize atonal music is, um, atonal. On which point he's absolutely right. So his comment, in fact, AGREED with my essay.
And Pelegius, you should scout this site more thoroughly. Agreeing with me is not a requirement; taking my work or words seriously is not a requirement. Indeed, it sometimes seems quite the reverse <grin>.
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: I'll look up Whitacre. Never heard anything of his.
Check out Lauridsen's "O Magnum Mysterium" while you're at it. Tonal. Modern. Yet somehow reminiscient of mid-Renaissance music like Tomas Luis Victoria and Palestrina.
Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey, since we're discussing dissonant modernists, is anyone familiar with a VERY odd piece of choral music -- in English -- that includes the line "Saul, why do you persecute me" chanted over and over again by increasingly agonized chorists?
I ask because I did this piece over a decade ago as part of an All-State Choir, but have never been able to find it again (in recording or sheet music) to show anyone how weird it was.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tom, I may know the piece you're talking about. The Temple Square Chorale did a piece three or four years ago that fits that description -- it was performed with a wind emsemble. I'll ask my parents (they both sing in the choir) and see if I can turn it up.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've heard the piece Tom is referring to, I'll check around and see who the composer is.
(I actually think the one he's talking about is by our very favorite Randall Stroope. But I'll check.)
Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wait, I can't believe you guys had a discussion about Eric Whitacre without me. *cries* I consider myself a groupie of his.
OSC (and anyone else that likes good music), the CD you want to pick up (and I guarantee you will adore it) is simply titled Eric Whitacre: The complete A Cappella Works. You'll hear that not only does he have a delightfully fresh compositional style, but he picks some of the most beautiful poetry to set. Cloudburst, while I imagine it being effective for wind symphony, is so much more delightful because of the text. Same thing for Waternight (my personal favorite) and Lux Arumque.
I've performed many of the pieces on that CD and while I don't dig all of the BYU Singers' interpretations, they do a nice job.
posted
You're entirely right, Narnia. A sample is on Stroope's website.
And it IS as weird as I remember. But hearing it can't possibly convey how strange the sheet music is.
There's a whole medium-length section, IIRC, where no notes or rhythm indicators of any kind are written, and singers are asked to "sing it like you're upset."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yep. I've seen it. So did you like it even though it was weird?
(And I'm impressed that 'musically talented/literate enough to sing in the All-State choir which is actually very musically literate' is on your list of talents. I didn't know that. Do you still sing at all?)
Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, I liked it a lot, actually -- although I'm a wimp: I preferred the more melodic sections.
Sadly, I don't sing much anymore; if you don't belong to a church, it's hard to find anyplace willing to let you sing once you become an adult. There are very, very few secular choirs out there. (This is actually a complaint I've voiced on this site a few times, because I really miss singing, and the only choir I've been able to find in the area is a barbershop group -- which, although I like barbershop, isn't ideally suited to my voice.)
I always surprise the heck out of my wife's family when I join them in carols at Midnight Mass. *wry laugh*
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I hear you. There's a huge lack of community choirs out there. Is there a local renaissance group (local having a rather fluid definition) you might be able to join?
Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I went and checked out Stroope's website as a result of this discussion. Interesting music. Tom, you're right, that sheet music does sound really bizarre. Anyway, looks like Dr. Stroope is guest conducting the Mormon Tabernacle Choir today!
What I want to know is, what does the Z stand for in Z. Randall Stroope?
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Strange as this seems to me given my particular LAST name (no, it's NOT commando), I've met someone with the first name Zander...
Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'd agree with the initial post: that was a very funny article.
Almost British. Like this from the Economist: "The Australian Actors Guild has walked out again, citing management indifference to demands for higher pay and better job security. The bad news is that the strike is expected to end by Monday."
or
"British cinema has much in common with both the French and American industries. Like the French, it doesn't make any money, and like the American, it doesn't make any art."
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
