FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » Hart's Hope *Wyrms spoilers in what I'm posting in just a moment*

   
Author Topic: Hart's Hope *Wyrms spoilers in what I'm posting in just a moment*
cheiros do ender
Member
Member # 8849

 - posted      Profile for cheiros do ender   Email cheiros do ender         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Is Hart's Hope in 1st, 2nd or 3rd person, or some combination? I really can't tell but I read somewhere, by OSC, that it was second. And from the first time I read it I remember it being 2nd, but I just took it back to the libary and the chapters I got through before taking it back (only about 5-15) were all in 3rd.

Edit: Also, has OSC written any fantasy novels besides Hart's Hope and Enchantment?

[ March 09, 2006, 06:55 AM: Message edited by: cheiros do ender ]

Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
SteveRogers
Member
Member # 7130

 - posted      Profile for SteveRogers           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Magic Street is a fantasy novel.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evie3217
Member
Member # 5426

 - posted      Profile for Evie3217   Email Evie3217         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's told as a conversation. The wife is telling it to her husband, telling him what he must do. So it depends on how you think of it. It's mostly in the third person, but there are moments in the second. Hope that helps.
Posts: 1789 | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cheiros do ender
Member
Member # 8849

 - posted      Profile for cheiros do ender   Email cheiros do ender         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Evie, yes it does. But I'd previously impressed by it's handling of second person, so I'm a little disappointed to find out it's not. Oh well.

Steve, I also thought of Wyrms in the time since my first post. I want to introduce a fantasy-fanatic fifteen-year-old female friend to OSC, but I'm having dfficulty choosing which novel. As far as fantasy goes, Wyrms and Hart's Hope are too *cough* "graphic" for her, whilst Magic Street and Enchantment are too contemporary at the start.

Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amilia
Member
Member # 8912

 - posted      Profile for Amilia   Email Amilia         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What about The Tales of Alvin Maker?
Posts: 364 | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Oliver Dale
Member
Member # 8398

 - posted      Profile for Oliver Dale   Email Oliver Dale         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There's also TREASON. I'm surprised that you found WYRMS to be too graphic, though.
Posts: 92 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mr_porteiro_head
Member
Member # 4644

 - posted      Profile for mr_porteiro_head   Email mr_porteiro_head         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Treasure Box and Homebody are contemporary fantasies, just like Enchantment (well, half of it) and Magic Street.

Treason is fantasy, even though many people would say that it is science fiction.

Xenocide and Children of the Mind certainly have fantastic elements.

A lot of his short stories are fantasies as well.

Of course, there's really not much of a difference between Card's science fiction and fantasy. There are hardly any science fiction books that he's written that don't have some fantastic elements.

Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
CdE,

Evie is right, the king's wife is telling him the story as a conversation...but her knowledge of all details, even the most intimate, is incredible...far too detailed, in fact, to be a real conversation unless the queen has some special method of knowing those details.

I don't recall if it's ever explained, but I think I'd remember. Personally, I think the queen is telling the king (I'm sorry, but the name is just too darned long for me to type it, heh, but I do love to say it) a much more 'bare bones' version of the story, but we the reader are able to see the truth. But magic has a powerful place in Hart's Hope, so it's possible she is relating the story precisely as it happened.

Hart's Hope would probably find its way to a top ten list for me of books ever written. I'm not entirely sure even Ender's Game would.

Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
EarlNMeyer-Flask
Member
Member # 1546

 - posted      Profile for EarlNMeyer-Flask           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Top ten of books ever written, huh? As opposed to books never written.
Posts: 338 | Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BandoCommando
Member
Member # 7746

 - posted      Profile for BandoCommando           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Exactly what is the difference between Science Fiction and Fantasy? I've read Mr. Card's statement about it somewhere, but recall neither the location nor the conclusion to which he came.

Science Fiction seems to ME to be identical except for one key difference. In fantasy, special powers, abilities, weapons, etc. come to be as a result of magic powers, dieties, etc. In sci-fi, they come about through some scientific explanation that may or may not have grounding in reality.

For instance, time travel is science fiction happens thanks to some kind of machine, but in fantasy, it happens because of a special pond (Enchantment) or a magical hourglass (Harry Potter III).

In sci-fi we have buggers and pequeninos (aliens), but in fantasy we have elves, dwarves, and talking animals.

Is there a deeper, more fundamental difference, other than the explanation of gimmicks?

Besides, if you ask me, Sci-Fi and/or Fantasy shouldn't be ABOUT the elves, time travel, or ray guns. It should be about the characters, their motivations, passions, and relationships, set against the BACKDROP of whatever universe they inhabit. THAT is what makes good fiction.

Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Oliver Dale
Member
Member # 8398

 - posted      Profile for Oliver Dale   Email Oliver Dale         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To cheaply summarize OSC: Fantasy is about trees, and science fiction is about spaceships. Everything else is nitpicking.

As Clarke said, any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic anyway.

Posts: 92 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
macnewbold
Member
Member # 7660

 - posted      Profile for macnewbold   Email macnewbold         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Cheiros: I'd recommend Enchantment to a 15-yr-old female, I think. It's been a while since I read it, but I don't think you'd go wrong with it. It's hard to go wrong with Ender's Game, but if you think she won't go Sci-Fi without getting contemporary Fantasy first, then save it for second.
Posts: 52 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BandoCommando
Member
Member # 7746

 - posted      Profile for BandoCommando           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thank you Oliver, that's the quote I was looking for. And I also remember Clarke's statement about magic versus superior technology. At first, I thought that it was Asimov who said that, then I second-guessed myself, thought "meh, someone else will bring it up," and moved on. :-)
Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evie3217
Member
Member # 5426

 - posted      Profile for Evie3217   Email Evie3217         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wyrms I found a little disturbing, personally, although there are parts of it that I remember perfectly. I would have to go with Enchantment, especially if it's a teenage girl. I enjoyed it immensely

Edit to add that I think Treason is an incredible book. It's one of my all-time favorites. That would be a good choice.

Posts: 1789 | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
CRash
Member
Member # 7754

 - posted      Profile for CRash   Email CRash         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ditto for Enchantment. I'm a sixteen year-old girl myself, and that is my favorite fantasy novel of OSC's.
Posts: 973 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Leia Atreides
Member
Member # 9227

 - posted      Profile for Leia Atreides   Email Leia Atreides         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Okay, so I finished reading Hart's Hope in Spanish yesterday, which may apology few misunderstandings of mine... anyways, what does the word hart mean?

I mean, I understood Spanish title of "Esperanza del Venado", because my dictionary knows the word "venado", but I still have no idea what this word means. Anyone with an idea how to explain it to a poor confused Slav? [Wink]

Posts: 32 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Yozhik
Member
Member # 89

 - posted      Profile for Yozhik   Email Yozhik         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A hart is a somewhat archaic term meaning "male deer."

Another word meaning the same thing is "buck."

However, "Buck's Luck" is a lousy book title. [Big Grin]

You might recognize the word "olen'" or "yelen".

Posts: 1512 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Fantasy is about trees, and science fiction is about spaceships.
I've wanted for some time to write a story about elves who take to space in living treeships. [Wink]
Posts: 37414 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Leia Atreides
Member
Member # 9227

 - posted      Profile for Leia Atreides   Email Leia Atreides         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wow, thanks, Yozhik! [Smile] That helped me very much. As well the example of "yelen" did. Thaanks. *hugz*
Posts: 32 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Leia Atreides
Member
Member # 9227

 - posted      Profile for Leia Atreides   Email Leia Atreides         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TomDavidson, go on. I can't wait to see a story like that. Elves in a treeship. Yummy. (Also, be careful: I think Dan Simmons already used idea of "treeships" in his Hyperion Cantos. His treeships may mean something totally different than yours, but it would be nice to have two separate words; poor reader wouldn't be confused)
Posts: 32 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Valentine014
Member
Member # 5981

 - posted      Profile for Valentine014           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'm surprised that you found Wyrms to be too graphic, though.
[Confused] When was the last time you read that book, Oliver?

**SPOILERS**

**

*

Shall I remind you of the part (page 320 of the mass market copy) where she strips off her clothes and has sex with one of the Unwyrm's "appendages"?

No, not graphic at all...

Hart's Hope has its moments too. The rape scene, for instance.

**END SPOILERS**

*

**

And I second Treason. Although she really should read Enchantment as well. While it starts off modern, the story is fantasy. I didn't get into it at first but the second time I picked it up, I couldn't put it down.

Posts: 2064 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Oliver Dale
Member
Member # 8398

 - posted      Profile for Oliver Dale   Email Oliver Dale         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Fantasy is about trees, and science fiction is about spaceships.
I've wanted for some time to write a story about elves who take to space in living treeships. [Wink]
Actually, the idea of a wooden spaceship has been done and then done again. Originally by Bob Shaw, I believe, and I think Dan Simmons had a treeship idea, also.

This -- along with psionics and telepathy, etc -- are the reason behind having the subgenre label of science fantasy, although I'd bicker with that particular buzz phrase.

Posts: 92 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Oliver Dale
Member
Member # 8398

 - posted      Profile for Oliver Dale   Email Oliver Dale         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Valentine014:
quote:
I'm surprised that you found Wyrms to be too graphic, though.
[Confused] When was the last time you read that book, Oliver?

**SPOILERS**

**

*

Shall I remind you of the part (page 320 of the mass market copy) where she strips off her clothes and has sex with one of the Unwyrm's "appendages"?

No, not graphic at all...

Hart's Hope has its moments too. The rape scene, for instance.

**END SPOILERS**

*

**

And I second Treason. Although she really should read Enchantment as well. While it starts off modern, the story is fantasy. I didn't get into it at first but the second time I picked it up, I couldn't put it down.

I last read it a couple of months ago. I'm helping with the adaptation to graphic novel. While those particular scenes/subjects might be graphic to you, if you read them again I think you'll find that they're mostly imagined. OSC is pretty good about one or two telling detail that lets you fill in the blank. That being said, even those scenes don't strike me, personally, as particularly graphic. Or rather, they aren't so much so that I'm willing to label the whole book as a "graphic" book -- just a good book with some rough scenes that help underline elements of tension.
Posts: 92 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cheiros do ender
Member
Member # 8849

 - posted      Profile for cheiros do ender   Email cheiros do ender         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*Deleted cause it was probably copyrighting. Sorry OSC.*

[ March 24, 2006, 06:21 AM: Message edited by: cheiros do ender ]

Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Princess Leah
Member
Member # 6026

 - posted      Profile for Princess Leah   Email Princess Leah         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
"Buck's Luck" is a lousy book title.
Depends on what genre... *shifty eyes*
Posts: 866 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
vonk
Member
Member # 9027

 - posted      Profile for vonk   Email vonk         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
dude, that unwyrm is hot.

heh heh heh. i didn't really think of Wyrms as fantasy. at first it seems that way, because the characters think of it as magic, the calling and speaking into minds and prophecies and such. but in the end it is all explained by the science of the environment that they live in.

i haven't read Treason yet, but i really want to. the OSC collection at the local Half Priced Books isn't so hot. Same thing with Harts Hope. i really like the teaser in the library, but can't find an actual copy.

Posts: 2589 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dr Strangelove
Member
Member # 8331

 - posted      Profile for Dr Strangelove   Email Dr Strangelove         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wyrms was a very weird book, if I do say so myself. I wouldn't label the whole novel as graphic, but it definately does have some scenes which are for mature audiences. I wouldn't put an age on it, it simply depends on maturity level. I own the book, but won't let my sisters read it because I don't think some of it is appropriate for them. But then, I read it at age 16. But to me, it's one of OSC's darker works, while Enchantment has a much more comfortable feel to it.

Worthing Saga is my recommendation. It has some sci-fi elements in it, but I viewed it as predominately fantasy. I believe OSC even says that some of the short stories were rejected by a sci-fi magazine because they were fantasy.

Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cheiros do ender
Member
Member # 8849

 - posted      Profile for cheiros do ender   Email cheiros do ender         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Treason, Enchantment and Worthing Saga, all of which I've never had my hands on (though I really enjoyed the start of Enchantment in the hatrack library). Whoever says one of the closest to the stroke of midnight that becomes the 12th of March (Perth time just to make it difficult for y'all and easy for me) will decide which book I get. At the moment, Dr. Strangelove is winning (I obviously don't count).
Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dr Strangelove
Member
Member # 8331

 - posted      Profile for Dr Strangelove   Email Dr Strangelove         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*Marks calendar*
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Leia Atreides
Member
Member # 9227

 - posted      Profile for Leia Atreides   Email Leia Atreides         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I wouldn't label Wyrms fantasy, either. I rather think about it as science-fantasy :] And also felt like reading horror at times.

warning: .:semi-spoiler following:.
(ie. meeting with a person who claims to know the answers, whole issue with heads, Unworm's child if I remember, the dreads from new-found memories).
.: end of the semi-spoiler:.

Definitely, very nice book. I'm not sure I'd label it as "graphic"- it's raw, but whole the "beware, graphic descriptions included!" thing of labeling books doesn't make much sense to me.

I second the opinion it really depends on the audience's maturity.

Posts: 32 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
vonk
Member
Member # 9027

 - posted      Profile for vonk   Email vonk         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
i'm gonna vote for the Worthing Saga too. It is probably my favorite Card book and has elements of sf and fantasy.
Posts: 2589 | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Leia Atreides
Member
Member # 9227

 - posted      Profile for Leia Atreides   Email Leia Atreides         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Today I read Enchantment and can definitely recommend. It's more so light-fantasy, with not so many hard feelings evocating scenes but with charm nonetheless. I would say it's very understandable and "appropriate" for those of us who like thinking about worlds that aren't too real looking.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
El JT de Spang
Member
Member # 7742

 - posted      Profile for El JT de Spang   Email El JT de Spang         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I believe OSC even says that some of the short stories were rejected by a sci-fi magazine because they were fantasy.
IIRC, the story this happened with was "Forest Of Worthing", or "Tinker". Without having the backstory of the colonization or any reference to Capitol, it does read like fantasy. I mean, OSC knew that their powers came from a long running genetic mutation, but to an outside observer it could have been viewed as just magic.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dr Strangelove
Member
Member # 8331

 - posted      Profile for Dr Strangelove   Email Dr Strangelove         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nows about a good time to recommend The Worthing Saga again. I do like Enchantment, and while I've never read Treason ( [Frown] ), I've heard its great. But The Worthing Saga holds a special place in my heart, as it recently helped me through a hard time. So, here's to The Worthing Saga.
[Hat]

Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Leia Atreides
Member
Member # 9227

 - posted      Profile for Leia Atreides   Email Leia Atreides         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, I'm reading my way through it, but I'm incredibly slow with comprehension on this one. Partly language difficulties, partly too complicated plot line for the first reading, but I guess it's mostly the language diffs [Smile]

I'm sooo sorry it wasn't published in my native language yet... I like its style, I would buy it :/

If you may spoiler me a bit, Dr Strangelove, what were the scenes you loved the most on the book?

Posts: 32 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cheiros do ender
Member
Member # 8849

 - posted      Profile for cheiros do ender   Email cheiros do ender         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Just posting to see if my hatrack clock is the same as my Australia time clock.

Yes, yes it is.

Dr. Strangelove wins. I'm getting the Worthing Saga. Omgzor-my-golly!

[Party]

Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Leia Atreides
Member
Member # 9227

 - posted      Profile for Leia Atreides   Email Leia Atreides         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Glad Cheiros do Ender has his clock fixed [Smile] But beware, clocks are weird these days, maybe Australian one and Hatrack lie both to you, you never know...

*Leia forces her to go, until she goes way more off-t*

Posts: 32 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Nikisknight
Member
Member # 8918

 - posted      Profile for Nikisknight   Email Nikisknight         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Homecoming has as much fantasy as sci-fi. And if you're looking for trees in space, that describes Speaker for the Dead too!

Treason, Wyrms, and Enchantment are all great (reading the latter right now). Totally different feel to them, though!

Posts: 105 | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dr Strangelove
Member
Member # 8331

 - posted      Profile for Dr Strangelove   Email Dr Strangelove         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Leia, there weren't necessarily specific scenes that I liked about it (though there is one ... but there's no way I'm going to spoil it for you if you haven't read it). Not to say I didn't like the scenes, but I was more ... affected by the overall message(s) of the book, mainly that the painful experiences are the ones which defines us. When we look back on our lives, at the character building experiences which have formed our personalities, it's usually the painful experiences which stick out as the most rewarding. If we are numbed to that pain, we cease to grow, to enjoy life, maybe even to truly live.
Interestingly enough, when you asked me to pick out my favorite scenes, the one's which came to mind were the most painful ones. The ones that brought tears to my eyes.

From a literary standpoint, The Worthing Saga is not OSC's strongest novel by far, as its really a collection of short stories. It's a saga, not a novel. But page for page it has the most practical substance out of any of his books, to me at least. And I know othere's will have different opinions, but that's mine, so there [Razz] .

Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kwsni
Member
Member # 1831

 - posted      Profile for kwsni   Email kwsni         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I ADORED Enchantment at fifteen. Still do. Hart's Hope comes in a distant second, and unless I try, I can't remember what Wyrms was about at all.

::would read Tom's elves in treeships story::

Ni!

Posts: 1925 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2