Scott is a mormon, so I wanted to start a threat about his views on spirituality, especially those regarding ... eh... the end of the world thinnie.
Me Orc Shaman.
Well, actually, dwarf warrior.. But anyhow, my deep spiritual points of view comre primarily from Dungeons & Dragons, and of course, Carlos Castañeda, Tim Leary et all...
But although I am not too clear on the basics of the game still.. (after decades of playing!), I do have enough common sense to smell trouble spiritually. Allah is kicking ass, and in 'The Crusade II' the Christians are loosing spiritual ground with some really angry muslims. Orc Shamans could not really care less about Christians and Muslims...
But a great Jihad is a great Jihad, and we are seeing one on T.V.
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Oops, sorry, I didn't see your post and just edited mine. Yes, but Mr. Castanada claimed to have taken his "journey" in the Sonoran desert with a Yaqui indian shaman. The man apparently never existed outside of Carlos' own brain. And Mr. Castanada basically established a personality cult so he could copulate with females.
Not a healthy role model from what I've been able to find out about him.
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Lets' start with the basics. There is a war on Irak, now to you non-history buffs, that's Babylon there, the Great Whore of the Bible. So a little bible prophecy is coming true thanks to the Anarchy President (or the Burning Bush)... I think I heard his Skull and Bones name is Magog, but who knows?
Yeah.. the basics. War on Irak. That means, far as I know, WWIII. Now during WWII, you really couldn't be neutral. The Swiss financed everybody, so their neutrality was a sham. No, World Wars do not count neutrality as a valid poisition.
With us or against us...
Anyhow, since I am a drug user, I guess I am 'against US', and being half-Mexican that means I have every right to defend national security from my end... the US did declare a 'war on drugs' eh?
Now, all of the prophecies of all of the religions speak of a 'big war' to end all wars before some mighty bearded white dude saves us all from ourselves.
Scott is a Mormon, so... here's a little taste of what I found out about the Mormons and ... politics.
Prophecies in the Book of MormonThe FutureJump to the WP Forum
The Book of Mormon Prophecies for the Modern World
Related Topics: Book of Revelation Guide to the Future Gog and Magog World Gets Worse Seven Plagues Second Coming Beyond the End
What is The Book of Mormon? In 1823, the prophet Joseph Smith learned of a book written by ancient Americans. It testifies of Jesus Christ. The book was named after a man called Mormon, who abridged the history of his people. He obtained the book in 1827, and translated most of what we now have in the year 1829. The book was published in 1830, and shortly after that the church was organized. Naturally, non-members nicknamed the church "Mormon" after this remarkable book. For your own free copy of the Book of Mormon, visit the official LDS web site, and follow the links. Or read it online. Download a Free Book
"PROOF" — All the Evidence for the Book of Mormon in One Place The simplest way to find out if the book is genuine is to read it and then ask God in prayer. But if you don't feel comfortable doing this, there is plenty of physical evidence too. A few years ago it put together a book summarizing all the evidence that supports the Book of Mormon. The contents page looks like this: PART ONE: WHAT’S SO GOOD ABOUT THE BOOK OF MORMON? Millions of lives have been changed Proof about God How to make a perfect world Life after death, and other questions answered Prophecies Get nearer to God than by any other book PART TWO: FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS How do I get an answer from the Holy Spirit? Is the Bible not enough? Has the Book of Mormon been proven? Do most scientists believe in it? Where are the gold plates now? Where are the ruined cities? Questions the critics ask PART THREE: MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE Classic evidence A case study Mountains of evidence Bibliography
The majority of the book is the last section, "mountains of evidence." It includes: Bible evidence People who saw the gold plates Was Joseph Smith reliable? Statistical proof A philosophical approach Semitic names Literary style The Dead Sea Scrolls and other ancient documents New World evidence Jesus in America A summary of names and dates Dreams and visions As I said, the book was completed a few years ago, and I would probably do it differently now. It is only a summary of the evidence — each point would need many pages to examine in any detail. Some points are stronger than others. But it is still (as far as I know) the only guide anywhere to ALL the different forms of evidence. It is offered "as is" — it could do with being revised, but I don't see it as a high priority. Click here to download the whole book in Microsoft Word format ( zipped). Click here to download an Adobe Acrobat PDF version in a new window. For More In-depth Evidence: As noted, that book was just a summary, and may be out of date. For more detailed analyses and scholarly evidence, visit FARMS — the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies. The Book of Mormon as a Book of Predictions Can it help us to prepare for the future? Introduction: The Nephite history mainly deals with the years before the first coming of Christ. It closely parallels the history of the modern world in the years before the second coming of Christ. This is hardly surprising, as the book was given to help us prepare for the Second Coming. For simplicity's sake, let us compare Nephite history in the years BC (Before Christ, according to their own calendar), with modern history in years B2000 (Before the year 2000). A Note About the Year 2000: The year 2000 is an arbitrary date set by the current consensus. There is no real reason to believe that this date is a fixed date on the Lord's calendar. There is allowance in all prophecy for some deviation in dates unless specific time periods are mentioned, as in the dated prophecies. However, this is not a cop-out, because we do not actually know from what precise point in time the Lord is measuring these events. With that in mind, we can conduct an interesting exercise in comparative history. The following historical periods are based on the periods identified in the Mitchell-Beazley timeline of world history, and the Penguin Atlas of World History. The Renaissance of the Tribe of Joseph and the Modern Renaissance: Nephite: The Nephite world has its roots in the decay of ancient Israel in the sixth century BC. The tribe of Joseph gained a new start when the prophet Lehi rediscovered the lands we call the Americas. The majority eventually embraced the existing culture, and this came to shape the Nephite world (see 1 Nephi for details). Modern: The Modern world has its roots in the decay of the medieval world in the sixth century B2000. The western world gained a new start when scholars and traders rediscovered the Greco-Roman writings. The majority eventually embraced these ideas, which came to shape modern world. Nephite History and Modern History: Nephite: After showing the origins of the Nephites, the Book of Mormon races through several centuries in just a few pages in order to focus on the period of interest. This period started with the discovery of Zarahemla (sometime between 279 and 130 BC — the Book of Mormon does not give more specific dates). This event signaled the physical movement of the entire people. Nephite ideas were changed forever (see Omni 1:12-19 and later books). Modern: Modern history, historians tend to agree, began with the American and French revolutions (224 and 211 B2000), an event that signaled physical changes for the entire western world. Modern ideas were changed forever. The Age of Discovery: Nephite: This period also saw tremendous discoveries due to the greater travel (between the lands of Nephi and Zarahemla), discoveries of new ideas (meeting the Jaredites), and discovering lost scriptures – the book of Ether (see Omni 1:27-29; Mosiah chapters 7-8, 17-18, 22-24). Modern: This period also saw tremendous discoveries due to the greater world travel, scientific discoveries, and discovering lost scriptures (the Book of Mormon). Note that all the parallels from here onwards take place after the Book of Mormon was published. There is no possibility of faking them.
The Age of Nationalism: Nephite: These forces led to an upsurge in Nationalism. See for example, Zeniff's attempts to not just defend his people, but his irrational and obsessive desire to recapture his ancestral lands, supported by many (but not all) of the Nephites. This was the mood circa 200 BC and onward (see Mosiah 9:1-3 and chapters 9-24). Modern: These forces led to an upsurge in Nationalism. According to historians, this characterized the international mood circa 200 B2000 and onward (that is, the early 19th Century). The Age of Colonialism: Nephite: Naturally, this obsession with peoples' "rightful homeland" led to conflicts. Ultimately, the stronger nations controlled the weaker nations as colonies. The key date was 120 BC, when the Lamanites controlled Noah's kingdom (see Mosiah 19:15; 21:3). Modern: Naturally, this obsession with peoples' "rightful homeland" led to conflicts. Ultimately, the stronger nations controlled the weaker nations as colonies. The key date was 116 B200, when the treaty of Berlin (AD 1884) carved up Africa for the Europeans. The Most Significant 100 Years: Nephite: If you calculate the average number of pages devoted to each year, the most important period in Nephite history (apart from the year when Jesus visited in person), was the "reign of the judges." The Nephite calendar was based on this 100 years, from 92 BC to AD 9 (remember that there is no "year zero"). It was a century of tremendous changes (see below, see Alma 1:1 to 3 Nephi 2:4-8). Modern: Practically all historians agree that, whichever way you measure it, the twentieth century (100 — 0 B2000) is the most significant 100 years in the history of the world (apart perhaps from the ministry of Jesus). It was a century of tremendous changes (see below). The First Great War: Nephite: The year 87 BC saw a war that was so great that the dead could not be numbered (see Alma 2-3, especially 3:1). Modern: The years 86-84 B2000 saw a war that was so great that it was called "the war to end all wars." The "Roaring Twenties" and Great Depression: Nephite: The 80s and 70s BC saw a great obsession with money. But this led to a decline in religious observance. The intelligentsia (such as the lawyers) increasingly pursued money for its own sake. Things went wrong, and we begin to see great masses of the poor (see Alma 4:6-8; chapters 11, 32). Modern: The 80s and 70s B2000 saw a great obsession with money. But this led to a decline in religious observance. The intelligentsia (such as the investors, many of whom are lawyers) increasingly pursued money for its own sake. Things went wrong, and we begin to see great masses of the poor. The Second Great War: Nephite: Although there had been small wars since the last big one, they were insignificant compared to what happened between 76 and 60 BC (though not everyone was fighting for all this time). This was the greatest and most terrible war in Nephite history (see Alma 28:2 to 62:41). Modern: Although there had been small wars since the last big one, they were insignificant compared to what happened between 61 and 55 B2000 (though not everyone was fighting for all this time). This was the greatest and most terrible war in modern history. The Postwar Period: Nephite: The Nephite postwar period was characterized by an economic boom, and new possibilities in travel lead to ordinary people traveling to distant parts (see Alma 62:48; 63:4-9; Helaman 3:3-9; 3:24-25). Modern: The modern postwar period was characterized by an economic boom, and new possibilities in travel lead to ordinary people traveling to distant parts. The 1960s: Nephite: The old ideas of who is "Nephite" and "Lamanite" changed (see Helaman 5:50, 6:31). There is an increasingly significant "youth" culture (see Alma 56; 3 Nephi 1:29). There is a decline in religious faith generally (see Helaman 16:15-21). But the true church has some great successes (for example, the brothers Nephi and Lehi). Modern: Old Institutions are losing respect. There is the rise of the "youth" culture (with the creation of the economically independent "teenager" in the 1950s). There is a decline in general religious observance. Despite this, with new ideas being tried and tested, the true church also grows rapidly. The Dominance of "Christian" Civilization: Nephite: These processes led to Nephite culture beginning to dominate their world. Even old enemies (e.g. the Lamanites) began to follow their ways. The barriers began to break down earlier, but the key date was 13 BC, when Lamanites officially joined the Nephite church. (Note that the Nephites are referred to as "Christian" because of their heritage, but their behavior did not always reflect this (see Helaman 11:21 — the process began as early as Helaman 6:8). Modern: These processes led to Western culture beginning to dominate their world. Even old enemies (e.g. the Communist countries) began to follow their ways. The barriers began to break down earlier, but the key date was 11 B2000, when the Berlin wall came down. (Note that western civilization is referred to as "Christian" because of its heritage, but its behavior does not always reflect this.) The Major Dated Prophecy: Nephite: Everyone knew that AD1 was important to the Christians, even if they did not know much about the prophecies of the Messiah. But after the date had passed for a few years, most people began to forget the prophecies and assume that they would not be fulfilled. Just when they did not expect it (34 years later), the final prophecies were all fulfilled in a dramatic way. The wicked were destroyed by environmental catastrophes, and Jesus descended from the sky (see 1 Nephi 10:4; Helaman 14:1-2; 3 Nephi 2:1-3). Modern: Many people feel that AD2000 is important to the Christians, even if they do not know much about the prophecies of the seventh seal. But after the date has passed for a few years, most people will begin to forget the prophecies and assume that they will not be fulfilled. Just when they do not expect it, the final prophecies will all be fulfilled in a dramatic way. The wicked will be destroyed by environmental catastrophes, and Jesus will descend from the sky in His great glory and power. The prophecies have all been fulfilled so far, so why should this be any different? Notes: The near certainty that the Nephite peoples (especially their Lamanite companions) met others when they arrived, and the influence of native American culture on the new arrivals, has been well documented. It is too complex to discuss here, but FARMS is a good place to start. The Bottom Line The Book of Revelation gives the main events preceding the Second Coming. But the Book of Mormon gives the detail.
Since I am not a Mormon (more like an Orc Shaman), I'd like to know where Scott stands on this point of view.
Scott...? Yer hiddin' under the bed yet?
Posts: 379 | Registered: Jan 2006
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No I don't think Scott would ignore me on his own fansite. Actually, none of the things I say here are against Scott in any way, on the contrary, like I said, I am his big fan.
No, I would call these entries a little experimental sharing of consciousness. Scott and I comre from vastly diferent worlds. Scott's world and mine need to meet halfways, I think. I also think that BORDERTOWN was very much about that, a meeting of two worlds.
Funny, I began this thread as the 'spiritual thread', then, shortly after, it became the 'please don't beat on Scott' thread, and another 'spiritual thread' appread, the bit about Scott's ministry.
Spiritual matters are the only thing left to discuss when poiltics turns ugly.
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I must say, your take on what OSC might believe about the end times is as hard to understand as your words. Mormons, especially of OSC's level headed nature, tend to view the Last Days with far less dramatic (or melodramatic) flair. I won't speak for him on the issue, but to be honest I am not sure where to start even if I did. Maybe if you asked specific questions rather than flow of thought commentary. Lets just say, you are no William Blake.
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Funny thing... First century Christians, you know, the ones that founded Catholocism, believed that the end of the world had already taken place with the Roman conquest of much of the middle east and the destruction of the Jewish temple. This was believed because a side by side comparison of the campaign of Titus Flavius (the Flavians where also the first "official" Catholics) and the Stories in the Bible of Jesus have "exact" parallels with respect to general events, places and apparent chronology, also the Prophecies in the Book of David exactly match the dates of when the war started, when certain events took place and when the final city fell.
Of course, some evidence exists now that suggests they fudged the last date by one year, to make it fit. However, it was widely believed back then. So there is suposed to be how many second comings? lol Biggest problem with prophecy is always that you never know what it "fits" until after the fact, and if your religion starts to look irrelevent you can always quietly spread the word that Rome really wasn't the 1,000 year peaceful civilization predicted, so belief that the end had already happened was some sort of clerical error, thus true believers might see it happen on <insert *nearly* every single months, day and year since the prophecy was first written>.
Its like saying, "I predict there will be a volcano erupting on the North American continent!", then continually fudging the date, over and over, until it actually happens. Makes for good religion, but its damn useless for prediction.
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Yep. I like predictions that have actual dates and names attached. Like Nostradamus' 'Hister', or Edgar Casey.
The Jehovas' Witnesses however, seem to have it down to a system. They always have the right answer to 'when' it happened. That's why I like to go to their class.
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