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Author Topic: A Book I'd Like To See
Ignis Fatuus
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There is one character that ingrigues me in the Enderverse. It is a character that many talk about, many think about, but we only ever hear from him once. I think a book from his point of view would be very enlightening. It would be awesome to view the world from his eyes, with his rational. If you haven't already guessed, I am talking about Achillies. He is such a different character from all the others, I think it would be a refereshing story.
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TomDavidson
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Card does not, in general, make his villains into protagonists. And to be honest, I'm not sure why you think Achilles' POV would be enlightening; what deeper motivations are you assigning to him?
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RunningBear
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I would like to see what he was thinking, probably for the same reason that therapists try to find out what serial killers are thinking.
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Hamson
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That would be an interesting story, but as far as I can tell, wouldn't be different enough from Enders Shadow to warrant a retelling. Unless of course it's a different story, but in that case, it would be a much less interesting time in his life because he has already accepted the ideals that he values.
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Orson Scott Card
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Achilles was not interesting to me as a POV character because he was oblivious to his own motivation, and unconcerned about the wellbeing of others. He was "evil" in the sense that he cared nothing about sustaining civilization, only about ruling it and using it for his own perceived greatness and power. Those people exist (Hi, Hitler! Hi, Stalin!) but as they flail about destroying others and not minding, what goes on inside their minds is an endless chorus of "me." When they're afraid, it's only for themselves - will they lose their power, their prestige, their lives? When they're bold, it's only to pursue their own benefit relentlessly. How do I work up the interest to sustain page after page after page of ME ME ME ME ME?

I figure we saw quite enough of Achilles through other people's eyes <grin>.

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Grim
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I have to agree with OSC, Hes character was comepelling enough. I have too say i didnt like how he wasn't "deep" in a sense me and thats about it.
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opiejudy
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Card does not, in general, make his villains into protagonists. And to be honest, I'm not sure why you think Achilles' POV would be enlightening; what deeper motivations are you assigning to him?

I know I am not going to convey what I want to say correctly, but I am going to try.

Most of the character I have cared about in these books have been faced with extreme situations in which they have to make a choice between a bad situation and a worse situation. The situation I view as the bad situation and the worse situation, may or may not be the same for you, you may look at the situation I view as the worse situation and view it as only the bad situation, and vice versa. So what I would think would be great to see from Achilles POV, is was he faced with a bad situation and a worse situation and chose badly? Thereby affecting the entire rest of his existence. He hates to be seen as weak right? Yet his name is Achilles, indicating there are weaknesses. In short I think there are many ways that a book from Achilles point of view could and would be interesting. We already care about him in some way, even if it is negative. It is a start.

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Jimbo the Clown
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I think it might be fun. Uncle O? Since you have no interest in the project, do you mind if I write an Achilles fanfic for Hatrack?
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Papa Moose
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Answer 1:
quote:
Question
How do you feel about your fans writing "fanfiction" using characters that are already established by you (e.g, Ender, Valetine, etc.)?

OSC Answers
I'm flattered; and then, if they try to publish it (including on the net) except in very restricted circumstances, I will sue, because if I do NOT act vigorously to protect my copyright, I will lose that copyright -- and that is the only inheritance I have to leave my family. So fan fiction, while flattering, is also an attack on my means of livelihood. It is also a poor substitute for the writers' inventing their own characters and situations. It does not help them as writers; it can easily harm me; and those who care about my stories and characters know that what I write is "real" and has authority, and what fans write is not and does not. So it's all pointless. I'd prefer simply to ignore it when it happens, but the way copyright law functions, I am told that I cannot ignore it. So there it is.

Answer 2:
quote:
QUESTION:

I'm writing a college research paper on fanfiction and one of the sections is going to be "When Not to Write Fanfiction." I know several authors have come out and stated that they do not want to have people use their characters in fanfiction writings (i.e. Anne Rice and Anne McCaffrey). Could you please tell me your opinion on people using your characters in fanfiction stories for personal enjoyment?

-- Submitted Anonymously

OSC REPLIES: - July 19, 2004

The time to write fan fiction is "never."

You will never do your best work in someone else's universe, because you're bound by their rules. Furthermore, most universes that people use for fan fiction are dreadfully dumb - one thinks of Star Trek and Star Wars - and most seventh-graders can come up with better ones.

As for using characters created by another author: That's where you're going to find yourself sued by any author who understands where the financial future of his work lies. In order to protect copyright and potential filmmaking rights, you have to AGGRESSIVELY protect your own authorship of characters, precisely because it is the characters that film companies need to license and protect when your work is filmed. Anybody writing fiction using my characters without my specifically having licensed it to them will be sued, not because I'm mean and selfish, but because this is the INHERITANCE OF MY CHILDREN, and to write fiction using my characters is morally identical to moving into my house without invitation and throwing out my family.

I care very much about new writers, which is why I strongly urge them never, never, never to waste their time writing stories set in other writers' universes without specific invitation, and even then they'd do more for their careers by spending their time inventing their own worlds and creating their own characters. Piggy-backing on someone else's financial success isn't how you create a career, and the "experience" you gain is worthless, since you steal precisely those story elements that you must invent for yourself in order to learn how to create workable original fiction.

So I'd have to go with yes, I think he minds.

--Pop

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Jimbo the Clown
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Ok. I meant no offense; I hadn't read those.
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Papa Moose
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I didn't assume you meant any offense, and if anything I'd think OSC would be flattered rather than offended. I only supplied the quotations because I wouldn't want to be accused of having put words in an author's mouth. *smile*
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opiejudy
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I would think that even if he didn't mind. What would be the point? I see this on boards for shows and books all the time and I myself never read them. I udnerstand taht people do, but my personal opinion is that I only want to see these characters through the eyes of the creator. If you are able to write a fanfic, you certainly should be able to come up with your own characters in their own situations. JMO
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Jimbo the Clown
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The point would be to try and stretch myself as a writer. I know how I write with characters of my own devising. I thought it would be interesting to write with someone else's characters, especially when the creator could look at the story and say, "Wow, you got that spot on. That's exactly how I meant that character to think." or "This is completely different than the character I'd envisioned." It would definitely be a hard task, and I'd love to undertake something that difficult.

To do it properly, I'd have to accurately portray Achilles, Bean, Peter, Suriyawong, Petra, and all the others through the mind of Achilles. Also, I'd have to create new characters that fit into the established universe- fellows on the streets of Rotterdam, his contacts in Russia, China, etc., and probably even a few Battle Schoolers.

Plus, I thought that the citizens of Hatrack might enjoy it. Some of them at least.

Still, Papa Moose's post made it all a moot point. I didn't know Uncle O was against fanfics; I'd be slapping him in the face if I wrote one using his characters, especially after reading his comments. I still think it would be a fun idea, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't dream of doing something like that without his permission.

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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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Quote
Question
How do you feel about your fans writing "fanfiction" using characters that are already established by you (e.g, Ender, Valetine, etc.)?

OSC Answers
I'm flattered; and then, if they try to publish it---


So by all means, write the story. It sounds like an interesting storyline, and you would challenge yourself as a writer. As long as the story's not published, OSC wouldn't mind. Hell, if you want to, you can send the story to OSC! [Kiss]

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Jimbo the Clown
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Yeah, but he also said, "I care very much about new writers, which is why I strongly urge them never, never, never to waste their time writing stories set in other writers' universes without specific invitation."
Since he didn't give me the invitation, I won't write it. Even if he did give me permission, I still wouldn't try to publish it (except, with his go-ahead, on Hatrack). I'm not the sort who tries to make money off others work.

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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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Well said [Cool]
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Jimbo the Clown
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*grin* Thank you.
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Chris Kidd
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Hatrack 1830

Vitrual Battle School

these are two area's that OSC as allowed people to write in two of his universe's

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Ignis Fatuus
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OSC: I actually did not see Achilles as an "Evil" character. Didn't Bean say it himself? Everything Achilles does makes sense to him in his mind, he justifies his actions to himself. I do not think that many people, even Achilles, are evil. They themselves believe that are doing good, and do not think of themselves as doing evil things, but they do vilify their enemies.

In Ender's Shadow, when you give us a tiny glimpse into Achilles mind, I thought that the 'motives' he revealed there could be used to create his personality. His obsession with everything being fair and just in the universe, and the only way to do that would be to rule the world and get rid of all the people who are a threat so that he could take care of the weak people.

I don't know, I just want to see how the other side thinks, justifies everything and views the other characters. After all, one thing I liked most about the Enders Shadow series was seeing characters from the outside, seeing how they are viewed by others and not just themselves.

But, with Achilles Jr., maybe that is coming.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
They themselves believe that are doing good, and do not think of themselves as doing evil things, but they do vilify their enemies.
I think a definition of "evil" which included purely and solely evil motives would make the application of the word very difficult.
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Jimbo the Clown
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Not to be rude, Uncle O, but I encountered this as I was crawling the web: http://www.apocalypse.org/pub/u/nathan/border/letter.html
What seperates your work from Madame Windling's that you can't allow fanfiction? Not trying to bug you; I'm just curious.

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CRash
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Some authors don't mind fanfics. Others do. I personally see them as a waste of time, but that's just my own opinion.
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Lyrhawn
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I think the only other story I'd like to see in the Enderverse that I haven't yet seen approached (though it might have been and I just missed it), is a prequel, so to speak. Take us back to the first bugger war when they were first discovered. How did earth react, who were the players and what not. How was the IF formed and what was life like on earth under the attack of the buggers. It many ways it takes us totally out of the Enderverse, because it'd be a different earth, with almost all new characters, in a totally different situation.

But it's a story I'd like to see told, and would love to read. Plus I'd love to see when and where the decision was made to basically exterminate the buggers. Ender may have pulled the trigger at the end of the day, but someone who was born long before him made the first decision to build the gun and give it to him.

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King of Men
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He has answered that before; I do not recall the exact words, but the sense of it was "Writer X does as her lawyer tells her, and I do as my lawyer tells me."
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Ignis Fatuus:

In Ender's Shadow, when you give us a tiny glimpse into Achilles mind, I thought that the 'motives' he revealed there could be used to create his personality. His obsession with everything being fair and just in the universe, and the only way to do that would be to rule the world and get rid of all the people who are a threat so that he could take care of the weak people.


Your missing the point there: the fairness and justness are the excuses, the justifications for the power he really seeks. The power is not a necessary end to achieve justice; rather the concept of justice is an end to achieve power.
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0range7Penguin
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I think the idea of an Ender prequal sounds cool but is essentially a bad idea. In EG you get some idea of how things were before and it is left at that. The imagination can take hold and run with it. Whenever an author adds more to the back story like that it puts it into a narrower box. But if Mr. Card did right such a book I would be thrilled and buy it the first day so who am I too say?
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Jimbo the Clown
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Like I said, the main reason I think it would be interesting is to expand my skill. An anti-hero would require different skills than a hero. Conforming to someone else's world heightens the challenge. Even if I knew that the only readers would be my critics, I'd still be interested in writing it simply to get better. So, no, Crash, the fanfic wouldn't be a 'waste of my time'. Maybe YOURS, but you didn't seem to have interest writing the story, did you?
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Lyrhawn
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I think fanfiction can have its uses but is ultimately limiting. When you write with someone else's characters and in someone else's world, you are limiting your own imagination and skill. You should be creating your own universe and complex characters to fiddle with.

Also, without even knowing it you'll probably attempt to mimic part of the writing style of the person you're fanfic writing about. That too can hamper your own style.

If you really can't come up with your own ideas, then I guess fanfic writing can be a good way of sparking a flame, so to speak. But I'd recommend making it a very short story, and only using it as a springboard into something of your own original work.

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CRash
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I agree with Lyrhawn. Why not create your own anti-hero to write about, Jimbo? It'll give you more room for creativity, and more experience with character development, as well as becoming a work you could potentially publish.

If you think Achilles is interesting, why not figure out why that character interests you, and then create another, "better" character that intrigues you even more? It can be very entertaining.

I am a member of a few online writing groups, and if you're over 18 (I'm not, unfortunately) you can join the Workshop right here at Hatrack. Writers' groups are a great way to work on skills, and can help you get better. A game I've played at one sounds like the challenge of a set universe that you are looking for. Each person contributes to the "rules" of a certain universe, for example if it is set in the future, if any magic is involved, if there are aliens, etc. and then everyone writes a short piece set in that universe. From what you posted, it seems like you might enjoy that sort of thing.

The groups I'm in have helped me with my fiction, and I enjoy writing more. So far I've gotten a couple of poems published and recently sent in a short story. It's a lot of fun.

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PUNJABEE
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quote:
Originally posted by Orson Scott Card:
How do I work up the interest to sustain page after page after page of ME ME ME ME ME?


You did a pretty durn good job with Elemak, Mr. Card. [Big Grin]
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Lyrhawn
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Good luck with the writing groups on Hatrack. I've been in a few now, and the rate of attrition is staggering.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Orson Scott Card:
How do I work up the interest to sustain page after page after page of ME ME ME ME ME?

I thought this was what all OSC's books were about.

j/k [Wink]

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Jimbo the Clown
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Crash, I'm not just interested in the anti-hero idea. One of the major thing that appealed to me was the fact that the worlds I normally write in are completely my own. I thought it would be interesting to see how I would write in someone else's invention; how I can take the ideas of someone else and make mine fit. I figure that it would be a useful skill, especially if I'm to write for any anthologies or anything along those lines.

Still, I don't see why we're arguing over the Achilles story. I already said after Papa Moose's post that I'd scrap the idea. [Razz]

As for the writing groups, sadly, I won't be eighteen until July. I'll check into it then. Thanks for the suggestion.

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