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Author Topic: Satyagrapha
Kierauxtraneaus
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hello everyone! I didn't know whether this was the right place to post this or not, but here it is anyway:

Out of just plain interest, I am researching about satyagrapha, And how Virolmi (probably spelled wrong) and Alai used it in various ways. When I was reading the book, I loved everytime that the subject came up.

So, I was wondering if anybody could help me find the precise places in the books where it involves, or talks about satyagrapha. I remember it being in the conversations between Virolmi and the other battle school children, during their imprisonment. But other then that time (which I can't find anymore), i can't recall any other specific places where it pops up.

So, if you could just lead me to the page number, or something like that, i would be very grateful!

Also, if I am posting this in the completely wrong place, you can tell me that too...

thanks again!

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Steve_G
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didn't know what satyagrapha was so I looked it up. Turns out I think you meant satyagraha.

Sat·ya·gra·ha /ˈsʌtyəˌgrʌhə, sətˈyɑgrə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[suht-yuh-gruh-huh, suht-yah-gruh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun (sometimes lowercase)
(in India) the policy of passive resistance inaugurated by Mohandas Gandhi in 1919 as a method of gaining political and social reforms.

can't help you with the Enderverse references though.

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Kierauxtraneaus
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oops, heh. My bad. Thank you for catching my spelling mistake!

That definition reminded me of a really good conversation. I don't know who it was between, or where it is, but it was still good! One person said the definition you gave me, and then another was like, "No, that's just a fancy way of surrendering! Satyagraha is to bear everything for the sake of what is right". Or something like that. Curse my lack of page memorization skills! grrr.

Any other help would be great!

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Kierauxtraneaus
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T_T anybody want to help me out? Or should I move this to the battle school forum?
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mr_porteiro_head
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There's the big section in Shadow of the Hegemon which starts like this:
quote:

From the mention of Bose, the conversation turned to a discussion of Gandhi. Someone started talking about "peaceful resistance"-never implying that anyone in Planning might contemplate such a thing, of course-and someone else said, "No, that's passive resistance."

That was when Petra spoke up. "This is India, and you know the word. It's satyagraha, and it doesn't mean peaceful or passive resistance at all."

"Not everyone here speaks Hindi," said a Tamil planner.

"But everyone here should know Gandhi," said Petra.

Sayagi agreed with her. "Satyagraha is something else. The willingness to endure great personal suffering in order to do what's right."

There's also this quote from almost the end:
quote:
Virlomi had set up a cenotaph for Sayagi in the small Hindu cemetery that already existed in Ribeirao Preto. It was a bit more elaborate-it included the dates of his birth and death, and called him "a man of satyagraha."
There's a section in the middle of Shadow of the Giant where Virlomi is talking to Chapekar:
quote:
"Sayagi defied Achilles to his face, and Achilles shot him dead."

"Then he was foolish to do it."

"Dead as he is, Sayagi has more value to India than you have ever had or will ever have in all the days of your life."

"I'm sorry he's dead. But I'm not dead."

"You're mistaken. Sayagi lives on in the spirit of India. But you are dead, Tikal Chapekar. You are as dead as a man can be, and still breathe."

"So now it comes to threats."

"I asked my aides to bring you to me so I could help you understand what will now happen to you. There is nothing for you in India. Sooner or later you will leave and make a life for yourself somewhere else."

"I will never leave."

"Only on the day you leave will you begin to understand Satyagraha."

"Peaceful noncompliance?"

"Willingness to suffer, yourself and in person, for a cause you believe is right. Only when you are willing to embrace Satyagraha will you begin to atone for what you have done to India. Now you should go."

Again from Shadow of the Giant:
quote:
When she taught him about Satyagraha, he thought he understood. You sacrifice anything and everything in order to stand for what's right without causing harm to another.

And yet she had also killed men with a gun she held in her own hand. There were times when she did not shrink from war. When she told him of her band of warriors who had stood off the whole Chinese army, preventing them from flooding back into India, from even resupplying the armies that Alai's Persians and Pakistanis were systematically destroying, he realized how much he owed to her brilliance as a commander, as a leader who could inspire incredible acts of bravery from her soldiers, as a teacher who could train peasants to be brutally efficient soldiers.

Somewhere between Satyagraha and slaughter, there had to be a place where Virlomi-the girl from Battle School-actually lived.

Or perhaps not. Perhaps the cruel contradictions of her own actions had led her to put the responsibility elsewhere. She served the gods. She was a god herself. Therefore it was not wrong for her to live by Satyagraha one day, and wipe out an entire convoy in a landslide the next.

Between Suriyawong and Virlomi:
quote:
"A nation without an army is nothing," said Virlomi. "Any enemy can destroy them."

"That's the Hegemon's work in the world. He destroys the aggressors, so peaceful nations can remain free. India was the aggressor. Under your leadership, India was the invader. Now, instead of punishing your people, he offers them freedom and protection, if they only give up their weapons. Isn't that Satyagraha, Vir? To give up what you once valued, because now you serve a greater good?"

"Now you teach me about Satyagraha?"

"Hear the arrogance in your voice, Vir."

Abashed, she looked away from him.

"I teach you about Satyagraha because I lived it for years. Hiding myself utterly so that I would be the one Achilles trusted in the moment when I could betray him and save the world from him. I had no pride at the end of that. I had lived in filth and shame for ... forever. But Bean took me back and trusted me. And Peter Wiggin acted as if he had known all along who I really was. They accepted my sacrifice.

"Now I ask you, Vir, for your sacrifice. Your Satyagraha. Once you put everything on the altar of India. Then your pride nearly undid what you had accomplished. I ask you now, will you help your people live in peace, the only way that peace can be had in this world? By joining with the Free People of Earth?"

And the only reference not dealing with Virlomi, after Peter and Ender talked at the end:
quote:
"I'm never going to grow up, Peter," said Ender. "I'm frozen in history. Forever twelve. You had a good life, Peter. Give Petra my love. Tell her I miss her. And the others. But especially her. You got the best of us, Peter."

At that moment, Peter almost told him about Bean and his three children, flying through space somewhere, waiting for a cure that didn't look very promising now.

But then he realized that he couldn't. The story wasn't his to tell.

If Ender wrote about it, then people would start looking for Bean. Somebody might try to contact him. Someone might call him home. And then his voyage would have been for nothing. His sacrifice. His Satyagraha.


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Kierauxtraneaus
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!!!

Thank you so much for this!!! wow...please don't tell me that you hand-typed these quotes up, I would feel horrible. Do you have the book on your computer or something?

Once again, thank you SO MUCH! This has really helped!

I feel giddy, my report seems almost too easy now...hehehe!

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vonk
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quote:
Out of just plain interest, I am researching about satyagrapha
quote:
my report seems almost too easy now
[Confused]

MPH: Homework Doer Extraordinaire.

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mr_porteiro_head
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I know. I don't like being lied to.
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Kierauxtraneaus
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no no no, you have it all wrong. geez, I'm sorry *smack head*

It was a free range, extra credit type thing. Anything that we wanted to research about. So, this was in my interest, and it was a report.

I'm sorry if you think that i was trying to lie to you, I absolutely promise that I had just honest information gathering intentions in mind.

sorry, maybe i should have stated that this was for an assignment, as well as an interest thing, in my first post.

Please forgive my horrible wording.

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mr_porteiro_head
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Thank you for your (accepted) apology and explanation.
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BlackBlade
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I had a Sinhalese teacher in High School who taught a class called "Gandhi and King" (Martin Luther King,) and he state that Satyagraha means, "soul power." I trusted him on the interpretation as he grew up in India.
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Kierauxtraneaus
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did he mean soul power like; actual spirit power, or like disco "soul" power?
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ClaudiaTherese
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
I know. I don't like being lied to.

Yeah. This sort of experience (seen so many times, from so many newcomers) is exactly what has honed my patented Primal DYOH* Reflex.

*Do-Your-Own-Homework

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Noemon
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::nods:: Me too. I'll admit that I felt a certain urge to "help" with this one in much the same way that I did the Emerson question a while back, but I felt badly enough about that one that I didn't quite have the heart to do it again.
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ClaudiaTherese
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I would have enjoyed it, but in a kind of tainted, dirty way. *sigh

A conscience is such a hinderance, you know? [Smile]

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mr_porteiro_head
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Don't I feel all silly now.
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mr_porteiro_head
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I keep looking at that post of mine and trying to figure out what I misspelled.
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ClaudiaTherese
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Porteiro, you aren't silly at all. You just expect people not to lie. That isn't a fault of yours.

This young person came to the site and explicitly said "Out of just plain interest" -- just plain interest. That means interest for its own sake, not for the sake of extra credit in a class. But that wasn't true.

Well, so it goes. It reflects badly on him (or her), not on you.

---

I pretty much assume anyone who asks a relatively detailed question out of nowhere at this site is fishing for help on some sort of an assignment. It is a shame to view others this way, and I think it makes less of me to have made this response automatic. One of the reasons I rarely come over to this side is that it is too depressing when it happens, and -- whether I am correct or not -- suspecting it makes me feel slimey, too.

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TomDavidson
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I don't mean to be blunt about this, but: does it matter? People ask for help. Sometimes it's for homework, sometimes it isn't. Do we really care why? Should we?
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ClaudiaTherese
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I am guessing that you do not, and that's fine with me.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I don't mean to be blunt about this, but: does it matter? People ask for help. Sometimes it's for homework, sometimes it isn't. Do we really care why? Should we?

I would care insomuch that part of doing ones own homework is to build up a habit of working hard and developing a good work ethic. It's something that takes years to develop and while one instance of somebody else doing some or all of the work probably won't ruin it, indeed necessity is the mother of invention, as a general rule I prefer to do my own homework and ask that others do the same.
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TomDavidson
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I don't see much difference between helping someone refine his understanding of Card's use of "satyagraha" and, say, offering medical advice or computer programming advice or whatnot. There's a difference between doing someone's report FOR him and answering a question of this sort, isn't there?
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pooka
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Well, unless they are asking your opinion as a ruse for some other thing. I know back in my MLM days one of the methods to introduce "the message" to people was to ask their opinion of this business opportunity you were interested in.
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dkw
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I don't see helping someone find quotes as being in the same category with doing their writing or analysis for them. "Hey, can you help me find where in the book the characters talk about x" is fine, "Hey what do you think was going through Ender's mind when he did/said/realized x" is getting into DYOH category.
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ClaudiaTherese
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I wonder how long it took Porteiro to find and type out all those quotations. As the original poster noted, "I feel giddy, my report seems almost too easy now...hehehe!" My guess is that he will be credited for the effort to sift and sieve through text to find these.

----

Hmmm. In this case, I was reflecting on my English teacher's admonition that finding the quotations was part of becoming familiar with the text, which aids in understanding the context in other ways. Of course, when I started college, most of us were still using typewriters, so keyword-searchable eBooks weren't an issue.

I wonder if their debut has made any difference in the general qulaity of English Lit essays? (Not making a point here -- it's an honest musing.)

---

Frankly, I am less perturbed by the OP using Porteiro as (essentially) a research assistant than I am about him/her doing it under false pretenses. The latter is a case of using someone as a means only, and in this case, it was done deliberately ("Out of just plain interest"). That speaks of an attitude toward others which does give me pause.

Oddly, I am not distressed at the lack of perturbation in others on the same topic. Not sure why.

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Edgehopper
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On a lighter note--would "satyagrapha" mean the willingness to endure great personal suffering to write what's right? [Smile]
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