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Author Topic: 7/29 Uncle Orson Review - sports
striplingrz
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Quick Link to the Review

I'm absolutely sure he didn't mean to come across sour on "athletic" folks, but that sure is the way I feel after reading that.

I consider myself very athletic (even though I'm way overweight at 34), and probably spend way too much time relishing my past triumphs. However, I for one considered myself a well-rounded guy. I was creative and made good grades and went to Architecture school. But sports and the teams I played on were a treasure to me. After reading your article I get the feeling you feel others like me somehow make you feel we are better than you? Maybe some, but not me.

I can't sing, but appreciate those who do. I wish I could write like you, but obviously admire what you do. I don't look down on others who aren't athletic, and honestly don't understand those who do. I guess thats your typical jock bully, but we aren't all like that!

And I don't think sports are the greatest thing in the world. I don't force my kids to play them. My oldest played a couple of years and then decided he was "anti-sports". I haven't pressured him in anyway. My middle-kid loves them. My youngest boy is just getting into them. I treat them all the same, I hope anyway. Sports, like any other activity, are simply extra ways to help kids develop their minds, and yes their bodies.

And I guess I lived in a different time than you, but kids who weren't as good at sports as I was were simply a part of the equation. Honestly, I didn't even notice until 11 or 12. And I guess I just wasn't in the crowd of folks who made fun of others. [Dont Know]

Anyway, had to get that off my chest. LOL

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JLM
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It seems that Card had bad experiences with team sports, which is too bad because individual sports can be fun as well. But let's tackle (no pun intended) his beefs with the big 3.

- Baseball/softball
This game is supposed to be slow. For the casual sports person (i.e. non-jocks) it isn't easy to play this game with any regularity. Hench, the invention of stickball. Well, when I was a kid it was Wiffleball, but the basic play was about the same. Grab a bunch of neighborhood kids, go the the street and smack some balls. Mailboxes make great bases and ghost runners were impossible to tag out.

-Basketball
Unfortunately, Card's basketball exposure was probably while playing at his local Mormon church. Chuch ball (as we Mormons affectionatly call it) is notoriously physical and competative. Being quite tall, I certainly played plenty of church ball, but most of my game time was playing pick-up games. Hence, I am much more comfortable playing 3-on-3 half court and 5-on-5 full court.

-Football
I was always far to scrawny to play football competatively, but touch football at the local park was always fun. Being light footed I usually did fairly well.


I never played high school sports because the last thing I wanted to do after the bell rand was to stick around for another 4 hours to get yelled at. However, I played sports aplenty growing up, but did so on my own terms. Consequently, I have the skills to be a good competitor at most sports, but I don't have super skills in any particular sport, and I'm OK with that. But there are few things like the sense of satisfaction of dusting your defender with a well timed spin move, crushing the ball with hard top spin to land inches from the baseline, or whacking the ball over bunker in the middle of the fairway. If only I could do these things succesfully greater than 25% of the time...

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camus
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Playing team sports with a group of friends is a completely different experience (and imo much more enjoyable) than playing organized sports in school with peers that may not be friends.
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mr_porteiro_head
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C.S. Lewis enlisted in the army and fought in WWI right out of high school, and he later said that the trenches weren't nearly as bad as school, because at least he didn't have to endure the sports.

I can relate with both Lewis and Card.

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Artemisia Tridentata
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One of my fond memories of High School, is that the counselor forgot to enroll me in gym. (gym in our school was team sports only) When I was a senior they found out and insisted on one semester. There were eight seniors in the class. The other seven had failed gym the year previous. Since our "coach" only left his office for roll call, we just made it known to the other team that "we will tell the coach that you won, if you don't tell him that we didn't play." I would have, and later in life have, enjoyed participation in an individual exercize program or lifetime sport. But, that was not an option. As for "church ball", the best investment a Mormon ward can make for their youth program is a pair of Le Clubs. You put one in each basket rim every Wednsday night.
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Dagonee
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Did anyone else think of the Calvin and Hobbes strip where Calvin plays baseball at recess?

"All by charigder id drppig frub by node!"

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Earendil18
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He was at home with his Dad at that point I thought. [Wink]

I do remember some comments about organized sports.

I can understand where Card is coming from, I've had similar experiences. I did do well in tennis which was far more individual than basketball.

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pooka
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Isn't the issue that sports aren't superior to music and the arts to the proportion that funding would seem to indicate; in fact, somewhat the reverse?

Well, I'm not sure I believe it. I know how it felt to never get cast in a meaningful role in drama productions. Though I did get to play half of a very sexy pair of cops in Arsenic and Old Lace. We were the Cagney and Lacey of pouty lips and post-punk hairdos, cuffing Johnnie like nobody's business. I guess that will have to do as my winning touchdown from my glory days.

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stihl1
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Card sounds kinda bitter about the whole sports issue to me.

I often wonder how someone that writes such great fiction can piss me off so much on a personal level. I've resolved to just not care about Card the man and his ideas, and stick to the fiction.

Except his crappy Bean books. I'm just going to pretend those don't exist.

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JustAskIndiana
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stihl1, does the author's own website look like the place to come and call some of his books crap and notify the world how much the man pisses you off?
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theamazeeaz
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I'm not very athletic myself, and I have to say that Card hit the hammer on the head when he said:

" They got mad when I flubbed -- but how was I supposed to get better except by trying? The lesson I kept learning from softball was, if you don't already have the skills when you get here, then you'll be treated with contempt and derision by your "team.""

I was afraid of the ball when I was younger and joined the town Little League team when I was 12 and the fear had receded somewhat. I was put on the best team in the league and I didn't get to play because the two coaches (and parents of the two girls who were actually the two best players) cared about winning so much that I wasn't even allowed to play infield or something other than left field (you know, even right field would have made my day) when we were up by ten with the five run per inning mercy rule. Experience was cited, but where was I going to get some? Not when the coach's daughter pitched so fast that everyone was scared of her, and I was so bored that I wrote "left field" in the dirt with my shoe to amuse myself while she struck everyone out. Winning the league was fun, but I would have had more fun if I could have played some more. At least I didn't ever have to hit against Lyndsay...

The worst part is when you are uncoordinated, you get treated like you are stupid. Condescension, public humiliation and physical injury: not my idea of fun.

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ricree101
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quote:
Originally posted by pooka:
Isn't the issue that sports aren't superior to music and the arts to the proportion that funding would seem to indicate; in fact, somewhat the reverse?

Well, at least in terms of participation, I'm fairly sure that more people played at least one sport than were involved in either music or theater (although probably not both combined). That said, there was a ton of overlap in pretty much all of the activities.
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Shanna
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quote:
I'm not very athletic myself, and I have to say that Card hit the hammer on the head when he said:

" They got mad when I flubbed -- but how was I supposed to get better except by trying? The lesson I kept learning from softball was, if you don't already have the skills when you get here, then you'll be treated with contempt and derision by your "team.""

I never played sports but I certainly understand those feelings. I took choir for eight years growing up and stuck with it only because I had friends in the program. But our director was condescending and played favorites. Many of my classmates cried through lunch and one ended up being taken out of school for an eating disorder because she didn't feel she was thin enough to compete. Shy students and others like me who lacked natural talent would often just mouth along to the music rather than risk losing the choir points at competition.

I think alot of the negativity attached to sports isn't exclusive to sports. I stuck with "music and the arts" all through school and was miserable for it. My brothers did sports and they are both more confident and self-motivated than me. Only one ever had a problem with a coach who turned him down for the basketball team because he wasn't the tallest kid, despite being more than qualified in skill, teamwork, and discipline.

I mostly had a problem with the idea that sports were irrelevant because any gain could be made in other fields. Like, why learn teamwork by playing football when you could do it in the band? It just seemed so obvious to me that some kids like throwing a football more than they like picking up a trombone. Just because one can replace the other, doesn't make either superior. When I was in high school, I heard about the special "lessons" other students gained from being in the band. I'd rather my kids be out playing baseball than attending a band party.

As for funding, in the professional spectrum, I think athletes get paid way too much. But I have the same feelings for the salaries of popular actors and musicians. I hear the same "committment" nonsense from the divorced actors and the rehabbing musicians. Just because Lindsay Lohan is an idiot doens't mean I won't let my kids go out for the school play. The same goes for sports and its "role models."

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scifibum
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Card has more of a problem with mean kids than with sports, maybe. Or with the way schools fund and promote sports events to a much greater degree than the arts. Not with people who enjoyed and excelled at sports.
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Earendil18
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The whole thing just reminds me of the story with the animals.

"Animal School"
"Once upon a time, the animals decided they must do something heroic to meet
the problems of a 'new world' . So they organised a school. They adopted
an activity led curriculum consisting of running, climbing, swimming and
flying. To make it easier to administer the curriculum, all the animals took
all of the subjects.

The duck was excellent in swimming, in fact better than his instructor, but
he made only passing grades in flying and was very poor in running. Since he
was slow in running, he had to stay after school and also drop swimming in
order to practice running. This was kept up until his webbed feet were badly
worn, and he was only average in swimming, but only passes in everything
was acceptable in school, so nobody worried about that.
When he left, he went to an egg-laying factory, earning little, but his feet
gradually recovered. One day, on a factory outing to the sea-side, he saw
someone almost drowning and flew and swam to the rescue. He became a local
hero, then winner of local and then national swimming competitions. He was
invited to speak at a Prize-giving at his old school, where his headmaster
commented that they had always known he had great potential in swimming!

The squirrel was quite good at running, but kept running across the
race-course instead of round it as it was obviously a quicker route, so
although he always came first, he was always marked down. He was brilliant
at climbing, but became very unhappy and frustrated because his teacher
insisted he always start from the ground up instead of from the tree-top
down. He became miserable, sulky, refused to spend all his evenings
struggling with flying homework and gave up on swimming. Soon he started
truanting and then got involved with some burglars who really appreciated
his climbing skills, However, he ended up in prison, where, to his
surprise, he was put on an abseiling course and then a mountaineering course
which he really enjoyed. When he came out, he started a successful career
training paratroopers.

The eagle was a problem child - in the climbing class he beat all the others
to the top of the tree, but insisted on using his own way to get there.
Because he was poor at running and no good at swimming, in those lessons he
distracted everyone by zooming into the air doing aerial acrobatics, so
although skilful and popular, he kept getting detentions and suspensions.
hen he left, he became a famous stunt flier, starring in many blockbuster
films.
The rabbit started at the class in running, but became very anxious at his
failures in flying and his difficulties with climbing and swimming. He
hated the extra work in special classes as he lost all his friends. He
became school phobic and left.

At the end of the year, an abnormal eel that could swim exceedingly well and
also run, climb and fly a little, had the highest average and came top of
the class, sinning the year prize. He got a steady, well-paying job in
insurance, became a school governor and later a local councillor. He
encouraged more good schools like his old one. Occasionally he fantasised
about being a cross-channel swimmer, but prided himself on being realistic
and never seriously considered doing anything so out-of-the-ordinary.

The foxes stayed out of school and fought the system because the
administrators would not add digging and burrowing to the curriculum. They
welcomed the rabbit who soon perked up and they joined forces with the
ferrets and otters to start a very successful self-development scheme,
producing burrowers of international repute.

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stihl1
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAskIndiana:
stihl1, does the author's own website look like the place to come and call some of his books crap and notify the world how much the man pisses you off?

Yes.
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camus
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quote:
" They got mad when I flubbed -- but how was I supposed to get better except by trying? The lesson I kept learning from softball was, if you don't already have the skills when you get here, then you'll be treated with contempt and derision by your "team.""
Well, many people practice certain elements of the sport outside of the team games. I imagine it's not much different than band members that practice their instruments on their own time. I think there is some expectation that people will spend some of their own time to improve, at least to the point of being close to the average level of everyone else on the team or band or orchestra or choir.

I don't particularly enjoy playing group sports with people that have never played before, but I don't hate it either. If those people happen to be friends of mine, then I try to make some effort to help them get more acquainted with the game before the next game, such as by playing catch or taking them to the batting cages. If they have absolutely no desire to actually try to learn how to play, then I don't see any reason why they should be playing at all with people that actually do want to play.

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Puffy Treat
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Speaking as someone who was made to feel like a freak and a loser growing up because I wasn't very good at sports (in fact, I sucked), I find it very easy to understand Card's attitude.

Guys, someone saying he dislikes playing sports is -not- the same thing as saying "Sports are EVIL!".

It just means the person doesn't like sports.

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CRash
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quote:
Well, many people practice certain elements of the sport outside of the team games. I imagine it's not much different than band members that practice their instruments on their own time. I think there is some expectation that people will spend some of their own time to improve, at least to the point of being close to the average level of everyone else on the team or band or orchestra or choir.
That isn't necessarily the way it is, at least not in my high school. I enjoy playing volleyball, and was on the freshman team because no one could get cut from it. But sophomore year I went out again and was cut along with about half of the other girls. The ones that remained were the ones that were "volleyball-fanatics", that is, they played the sport all summer and were on club teams, travelling to different states to tournaments, paying membership fees.

The rest of us weren't horrible, but we just couldn't dedicate the same time or money the top players could. The sad thing was that our school wouldn't fund any other teams, so we had no way to organize and play for a low cost and improve our skills, the way we could frosh year. The average players were left behind. Sure, we would get together and play for fun sometimes, but we missed out on truly competitive play and the chance to support our school. I think that a public school like mine should at least help organize this kind of activity for those who want to play it.

I understand where OSC is coming from in his article, although I wouldn't have until I started playing high school sports. I've begun to withdraw from them and lean toward things I am actually very good at, like the math club and debate team. It hurt to fall behind in sports, and now I only play them when I know I can really have fun. I guess they're just not my, and apparently OSC's, thing.

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grammargoddess
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OSC was definitely not vilifying sports, he was just saying that sports and sport players are given an inordinate amount of attention compared to other activities that promote the same values. And that's definitely true. Sports heroes are treated like gods; Debate champions, not so much. [Big Grin]
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GaalDornick
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He's pretty much correct on everything in that. Except the lessons. There are things that you learn and develop in sports better than anywhere else. Maybe it's not teamwork, but playing a sport at a high level teaches you how to push yourself mentally and to keep working even if you're tired or don't feel like playing. It makes you mentally stronger, IMO, because you have to force yourself to keep playing even if you're exhausted or losing and just want to give up. Mind over matter, basically. I don't think there is any other activity that teaches you that better than athletics.

But about sports players being given way too much credit and star athletes thinking they're better than everyone else, in my experience he's 100% right on that.

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Earendil18
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
...but playing a sport at a high level teaches you how to push yourself mentally and to keep working even if you're tired or don't feel like playing. It makes you mentally stronger, IMO, because you have to force yourself to keep playing even if you're exhausted or losing and just want to give up. Mind over matter, basically. I don't think there is any other activity that teaches you that better than athletics.

But about sports players being given way too much credit and star athletes thinking they're better than everyone else, in my experience he's 100% right on that.

I suppose, but if you've ever had the experience of writing, directing, and producing a film, I'd say that'd come close. Sleep is secondary.
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LargeTuna
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i play soccer and i love the team aspects. it's a sport u need skill to play, but ive found it to be more rewarding than chorus, math league, or TSA. plus, it feels great to improve my mile time, or be able to compete with kids older than me. (i wasnt always as athletic as i am now) sports are a major posotive in my life!
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DancerRonin
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The big problem with sports is the complete dominance they have in our schools.

If you don't care about sports you are ostracised.

If you don't excel at sports you are ridiculed.

My academic bowl team in high school had it's funding taken away so the football team could have new jerseys. We had to raise money to pay for our own bus to competitions.

The drama department had a shoestring budget and a theatre with a balcony no one could sit in because it was condemned......but they built a new football stadium.

Thats the problem with sports, we bow down and worship them above all other things.

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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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Yes, sometimes Orson Scott Card's essays do appear to be describable as a "rant," though they all make very good points; they are written in a tone that suggests the author is annoyed by a certain idea, and is saying that outright. Frankly, on the issue of sports being worshipped, I can't blame him.

The main point of sports is, no denying it, competition. That's the real point of it all, and that's what turns a sports season into an endless rave of comparing statistics, reciting the names of the "best" players, and gambling. That's why city loyalties don't mean anything to spectators; everyone's a Yankee fan.

Sports are a way to prove outright that someone is better than someone else. Whether it is an individual's sole skill that matters, or the combined skill of a team, the point is always to overwhelm the opponent. Child athletes are disgusted by poor performers because they take it personally. They take it as an assault against their ambition to prove themselves, and they detest shame for something they are not responsible for.

A sport is a high-stakes determiner of fame and shame. Since everyone lusts for fame, hates shame, and seeks the adrenaline from risk and tension, people are drawn to sports like iron filings to magnets. People want to see who they must praise and who they may tease. Since sports are a way to say someone is better than another, and any advantage is a justification, in a person's mind, for elevated social status, which everybody seeks, it is an impossible to make something more intriguing, especially in an ambitious male's mind, than sports.

Of course, there are those wise enough to either avoid the vain struggles in such competitions and seek to develop skills elsewhere, or even simply treat the sport as a hobby, not a job, that is just fun and allows a decent physical and mental workout. That, of course, isn't easy to do, especially when anyone else on the team thinks and acts otherwise.

Other school activities, like musical performance, are not so adored. This is because the chorus isn't taking any visible risk. They're doing what they know how to do. There is not the pressure of the prospect of failure, at least none visible to the audience, and there is no excitement of triumph. While there is, if the director/teacher does his job well and the students know how to sing, a powerful melody that captures the audience in a way they like, these effects are not so memorable and intense as they are to those with alpha-male genes.

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