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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » OSC I'm Sorry (Page 0)

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Author Topic: OSC I'm Sorry
El JT de Spang
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I agree, which is why I speak out against it even when it's Mr. Card bashing me or friends of mine. I would a hypocrite not to call out OSC when he bashes people.

Of course, one man's hypocrisy is another man's politeness.

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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Rodger Brown:
another side is vital so is positive discussions I just think bashing is rude.

I try not to bash him, but sometimes he stabs me in the heart when he writes stuff like that.
It hurts my heart, man. [Frown]

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Rodger Brown:
another side is vital so is positive discussions I just think bashing is rude.

You will have fatal difficulties in defining the difference between bashing and argumentation. This is a difficulty which OSC himself has both on and off this forum. I would have orders of magnitude more respect for his personal feelings if he didn't habitually discard any semblance of courtesy in his public writing. If what he says, on this very website, sets the tone for this forum, then what should that tell us?
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Rodger Brown
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I don't think OSC would write anything that he wouldn't say to anyones face How many people on this forum can say the same.
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Synesthesia
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Dang. Then he'll really make someone mad...

Really, some of the stuff he writes in this article is totally impolite. It's his right to say it, and my right to disagree politely.

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Rodger Brown
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I agree
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Rodger Brown:
I don't think OSC would write anything that he wouldn't say to anyones face How many people on this forum can say the same.

More than you seem to think. You might know that if you had been here longer than your post count shows....providing you weren't a lurker for the past 9 years, of course.


I disagree with most of what he says, and I hear you about being rude, but politeness should go both ways.


I am OK with the idea that I like his writing and enjoyed meeting him in person, but that I disagree with his views on most things. But I often have trouble with HOW he chooses to express his views more than anything.


That being said, I disagree just as strongly with some of the tings that have been said in thread like this in the past...and with the manner in which they were said as well. [Wink]


The search function does work, you know. [Big Grin]


Welcome to Hatrack!

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I don't think OSC would write anything that he wouldn't say to anyones face.
I disagree. Quite strongly, actually.
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Rodger Brown
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Yes Im a noob here and Im not looking to make enemies. I should spend more time posting thorough posts but usually I just have a thought and spew it out without thinking. So there its. I Do stand by my earlier posts and would be interested to find out more of your opinion Tom.
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TomDavidson
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I think OSC, like most people, is civil to people with whom he disagrees when speaking to them in person, even when discussing the topic about which there is disagreement.
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Xann.
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
I don't think OSC would write anything that he wouldn't say to anyones face.
I disagree. Quite strongly, actually.
Why don't you say that to my face?

haha sorry i felt i needed to.

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Kwea
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Rodger, I don't think you are making any enemies here, at least not yet. [Wink]

But this is a touchy topic at times. There has always been a bit of a debate on what level of criticism should be applied to OSC here on his own website, and that is only fueled by this political comments where he seems to take a no-holds barred attitude at times.


Then again, I am of the opinion that he does it on purpose to spur conversation on these topics...not that he doesn't believe it, but I don't believe someone who is as good with the spoken work as OSC could possibly be unaware of the effects of the type of language he uses in his political commentaries.


Which is why I refuse to read them most of the time.

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aragorn64
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
quote:
Originally posted by Rodger Brown:
another side is vital so is positive discussions I just think bashing is rude.

I try not to bash him, but sometimes he stabs me in the heart when he writes stuff like that.
It hurts my heart, man. [Frown]

Why does it hurt? He strongly voices his opinions, and in a manner that isn't exactly the epitome of the "politeness" that people seem to expect. But why is it any different from the countless numbers of opinions on the internet, with a great deal presented in an even coarser manner than OSC's?

This is the problem I have. I don't mind people disagreeing with OSC and voicing their opinions on it, naturally. But it bothers the heck out of me when people think that his own site is the best place to do it. If people are going to criticize OSC quite vehemently, why do some of them choose to do so on his own site that he pays for? It's kind of like going into somebodies house, using their restroom, and insulting their taste in furniture on the way out. (Yes, I know that's not a great analogy, but you get my point.)

Now, I think discussion based on his comments is good, even the critical ones. I'm not too fond of the outrage that some people seem to express at him. "How dare he!"

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Synesthesia
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Why though? Where else are they supposed to express their disagreement?
If he can write all sorts of impolite things about liberals, gays, ect, I have the right to voice my polite disagreement. It's not like I'd eat dinner at his house and say, I really dislike this chair, it's an ugly colour, but if he says something that I think is illogical, I'm supposed to let him get away with it and not call him on it?
He's already talking mainly to an audience that already agrees with his point of view, and likes that sort of thing.
I'm not going to insult him, his beliefs, ridicule his hopes and dreams, but I will politely say, no, I don't think things are like that. I think things are different and that there's middle ground to consider.
Other folks might be a bit harsher, because, well, he's being harsh first. One can't let folks get away with that. They have to be free to express their opinion, and have it disagreed with, otherwise there's no point.

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Chris Bridges
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So by this reasoning, if I'm ever fortunate enough to be in OSC's actual living room and he's talking to me, I shall simply absorb everything he says and smile and nod politely if he says anything I disagree with, because clearly he doesn't want any opposing opinions.

Only... I really don't think he would mind, provided I remained polite and backed up my opposition with reason and logic. I really, really don't see him as someone who would welcome yes-men around himself.

Thing is, can you argue the point while respecting the person? Can you refrain from personal attacks, even if that person seems to be hurling some attacks himself?

When I write here, I assume that anything I type can and might be read by him or his family, and I try to behave myself accordingly. But if I think he's made a mistake, I'll call him on it. I think that OSC values discourse, and if he reads our postings at all I truly think that he considers at least some of what we have to say, whether it ultimately changes his mind or not.

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Rodger Brown
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I think that open and frank discussion is great. A lot of the replies suggest that dialogue is bad. It is not, however I feel that some of the things I've read are little more than the adult version of your a poopoo head and you stink.
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Sterling
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It's unfortunate that it should ever come to that level, of course.

I think Card is a terrific writer; I think his book on science fiction writing may well be the best work that's been written on the subject.

But I clearly disagree with him on many subjects, especially in the realm of the political. At best, that makes me want to say "...But... Can't you see... Haven't you considered..." And at worst that makes me want to say "You're including me and those I care about in your words, and you (clearly) don't know a thing about any of us. How dare you?"

That Card's fiction is so good means that he has an audience for... Well... The rest of it. And it does seem only appropriate that if that audience gets to respond, then... The audience gets to respond.

Politely, hopefully.

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aragorn64
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I'm not arguing that discourse and discussion stemming from his writings is bad. I thought I was pretty clear about the fact that what bothers me is the outrage some people (and I'm not naming anybody in this thread!) seem to express at some of OSC's opinions.

If you're on this forum, you've obviously had something written by OSC affect you deeply. Because his work has touched a lot of us, I think we put up this mental image of what we want him to be. But he has very unpopular opinions that he voices often and strongly. (And not always politely, either, but I don't see people on the other side of the issues being a shining example of that either -- why do we expect him to be?) We put up this mental image of him that we expect him to abide by, so when he doesn't (because he's, you know, an individual and a human separate from our perceptions of him) it hits us more personally than if it was just some Joe Schmo.

Once again, I am not against discussion about the issues he brings up! I just dislike the occasional outrage at his opinions, and the discourse often steers from the topic at hand to "how dare he?". Just... we need to stop putting the man on an ideal pedestal. Can't we accept the fact that the man who wrote Ender's Game -- or whatever of his books that hit you hard -- can have opinions that you consider wrong? It doesn't remove the experience you gained from that book.

ONCE AGAIN, I am not accusing anybody! I'm sure we've all felt strong disagreement with him, to the point of disappointment I know I have. But, regardless, I think a greater deal of respect is due to the man on his own site. There are indeed other places that we can disagree with him somewhere that is not essentially his personal property.

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steven
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"I think OSC, like most people, is civil to people with whom he disagrees when speaking to them in person, even when discussing the topic about which there is disagreement."

Based on how he handled a heckler trying to argue with him about WMDs in Iraq at a signing in Greensboro a couple of years ago, I'd definitely agree. Based on some things I've heard from others, he also can come across, quite unintentionally, as a bit insulting. Most of us can, though, at some point, be unintentionally insulting. We all have our blind spots.

I find it more and more entertaining over time how one person, me, him, or anyone, can hold so many contradictory prejudices/opinions/beliefs. Truly, is it not entertaining?

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sylvrdragon
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I disagree with probably most of what OSC writes outside of his literature. However, I don't have any problem with the WAY he writes things. He's straight forward and to the point. He doesn't dance around the topic, and I think that intimidates people who are used to fuzzy, soft, politically correct conversation.

I don't expect a person to apologize for their opinions-- especially when it is sought out deliberately. If it was an academic work, then I might expect it to be riddled with "In my opinion" or "My sources say" or "According to this", but it isn't an academic work; It's a blog-- a blog that need only be read by the people who actually want to know what OSC thinks about something.

The less time he takes buffering up an article with pleasantries, the more time he can take putting his stance into context. Just the way I like it.

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steven
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"I disagree with probably most of what OSC writes outside of his literature."

OK, who are you, and what have you done with the real sylvrdragon?

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Chris Bridges
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I don't expect pleasantries. But what occasionally galvanizes Hatrackers into less-than-polite responses is the way OSC can infuse his arguments with open scorn. If he made his case, we'd have no problem: we simply disagree. But on some topics OSC's side is so self-evident to him that he can't seem to help ridiculing the other side -- especially when writing for an audience for whom his side is equally self-evident.

It's still possibly to respond politely, of course. You just have to avoid responding right away. but I can understand why some attack back.

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sylvrdragon
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
"I disagree with probably most of what OSC writes outside of his literature."

OK, who are you, and what have you done with the real sylvrdragon?

Playing devil's advocate is my hobby. Besides, I said MOST, not ALL.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Rodger Brown:
I don't think OSC would write anything that he wouldn't say to anyones face How many people on this forum can say the same.

I don't know of an instance in which I would be uncomfortable saying anything I have written here to OSC's face. If he was comfortable enough with me, or if I was friendly enough in aying it, I doubt much offense would be taken with my opinions.

On the other hand, OSC has said things here that would cause me to ask him to leave my house, or would cause me to cease speaking to him or listening to him in a social context. I think he has the right and privilege of expressing his opinions here, but he cannot reasonably claim to be an innocent victim of bullying. These things tend to be fed from both sides.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Bridges:
So by this reasoning, if I'm ever fortunate enough to be in OSC's actual living room and he's talking to me, I shall simply absorb everything he says and smile and nod politely if he says anything I disagree with, because clearly he doesn't want any opposing opinions.

And the idea that there is some huge contingent of haters on this sight is beyond the pale. The people that argue the most are just as interested in what OSC has to say as anyone- and many are as polite or more polite than the people in OSC's particular camp on a given subject- most especially OSC himself.

And people, as for the idea of OSC "paying for this site," I understand that he hosts the site, but I really don't believe it costs him anything out of pocket (ever notice the huge google ads and the links to amazon dot com and IGMS, which are all money making features?). Further, I doubt he spends any time dealing with the site, except perhaps for the, again money making, portions. Even then, I doubt if he spends any energy on it at all. I can't know that, but I suspect so.

As for you older members, just think of how much advertising you have responded to on this site, and how much money you've spent. In three years I've probably bought 10 books because of this site, and access to multiple issues of IGMS, so in all fairness, you could say that the members are paying for this site, and you'd be right in a significant sense.

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Scott R
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quote:
I really don't believe it costs him anything out of pocket (ever notice the huge google ads and the links to amazon dot com and IGMS, which are all money making features?
OSC (and kacard) have stated elsewhere that this site is run out of their own pocketbook. I'm inclined to take them at their word.

How much do revenue do you think IGMS and Google/Amazon ads generate, Orincoro?

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T:man
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omg im newwer than him yet he has only 50 posts :awe:
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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by T:man:
omg im newwer than him yet he has only 50 posts :awe:

This is poetic.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:
I really don't believe it costs him anything out of pocket (ever notice the huge google ads and the links to amazon dot com and IGMS, which are all money making features?
OSC (and kacard) have stated elsewhere that this site is run out of their own pocketbook. I'm inclined to take them at their word.

How much do revenue do you think IGMS and Google/Amazon ads generate, Orincoro?

Well, I don't think either generate very much. Of course I take them at their word as well. I believe that they write a check, or post a payment themselves for the site each month, or whatever. But I'd be surprised if this site isn't a money maker in the long term. I know that google ads generate *something,* or else why would they be there? I also know that the front page of the site is usually featuring several things for sale, and occasionally those things are very pricey. As I said before, I have bought things because of this site, although I probably won't again, and I'd be surprised if that wasn't true of many posters. Endgame, I seriously doubt this site generates less income than the cost of bandwidth.

That said, I understand the point being made. It is still owned and operated by OSC and company, and that's not something to set aside- I just think the money part of it is the less important part. Kind of like the cops in my town papering windshields with parking tickets to "generate income." Ok that's a terrible analogy, but I just think people are weird about money sometimes.

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Scott R
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Surprise.
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scottneb
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quote:
Originally posted by T:man:
omg im newwer than him yet he has only 50 posts :awe:

I smiled inside when I saw this. T:man doesn't know about hyper-literalness and ultra-correct grammar and perfect spelling.

Somehow it just makes me happy.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Surprise.

What is?
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Orson Scott Card
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Wow. I sure wish this were a self-sustaining site. But no, the income generated by the ads and the links to Amazon and B&N and Booksense is, while much appreciated, only a tiny fraction of the cost of maintaining this site - and the others that I support. Ditto with the things we sell directly from this site, or at Cafe Press and Zazzle. We keep trying to figure out a way to exploit you and make money from you, but basically it all comes down to whether you buy my books or not <grin>.

The real benefit I get from Hatrack is (1) knowing something about who my readers are and (2) having people to call on who know my books better than I do, so I can avoid contradictions and make sure to deal with issues I left hanging in continuing series.

I can't know who my readers are if I forbid them to post their disagreements with me. The only posts we remove are the ones that go too far into the realm of personal attacks (on me or anyone else) or general offensiveness, because such posts are the enemy of rational discussion.

In the world of civilized discussion, people can disagree with others - even with people they admire. I have close friends with whom I disagree strongly on many, many issues. We can even DISCUSS those issues, and that's part of how I learn what is believed by the smartest of the people who disagree with me. Oh, yes, and I also change my mind sometimes, because they persuade me that my previous view was partially or wholly incorrect.

What I've never understood is why some people who admire (or once admired) my books immediately leap to hatred and rage when they find that I disagree with them on something. I would have hoped that the kind of people who respond to my books would be capable of examining, rationally, what I actually say and seeing why I reach a conclusion they dislike or disbelieve. I would have hoped that they would try to treat me as, say, Raman, and not assume that I'm Varelse and then act to exterminate my career <grin>.

But the hate responses are useful as a sample of the kind of thinking that leads to religious wars and hate crimes. Meanwhile, on Hatrack people are, or at least try to be, rational and civilized in handling disagreements.

Often newcomers will be poisonous in their response to disagreements they have with me, but then the ensuing thread calms things down as experienced Hatrackers gently nudge the newcomer toward the kind of civilized conversation that makes this community worth supporting. That's why we don't just eliminate posts that start out with silly attacks on me. We figure that one of the things Hatrack does - that YOU do here - is to help people grow out of that puritanical I-disagree-so-that-must-be-evil attitude that is far, far too prevalent in American society today.

And if I ever get to feeling down about how few people even TRY to comprehend my carefully reasoned and well-founded arguments, I have only to look at the kind of mindless, groundless, unfair, and borderline insane attacks that have been directed at George W. Bush for the past eight years - and that INSTANTLY were directed at Sarah Palin. It seems that once "borking" became acceptable in American political life, it became the default stance of the puritanical Left. Compared to the garbage that Bork and Clarence Thomas and President Bush and Sarah Palin have endured and continue to endure, the attacks on me are really quite smalltime.

Though maybe a few front-page assaults on me from the New York Times would spur the sales of my books so I really COULD afford to pay for my website hobby <grin>.

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Synesthesia
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I think arguing about politics is wearing me out.

I'd rather just sit around with folks and eat hamburgers, sushi, or meatball subs and talk about something else.

Music instead.

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Trent Destian
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The problem perhaps is perspective.

In your view you may be saying the things you say in a calm and controlled manner. Gentle hand gestures, a friendly smile, tapping the tabletop as you conclude your reasoned argument.

However when I read some of your words I see you pacing, your face in a scowl, shouting at the crowd. Jabbing your finger accusingly at an image of your subject. Laughing when you think you made a spectacular point, a cute aside, giving a knowinging smile as you mock opponents views like it's a joke we're all in on.

"Reasoned" and "civilized" are abstract at best. Just because you beleive your logic is reasoned and articulate, doesn't mean others do or should. And it doesn't mean your words are better than a fanatic screaming on a stage, just prettier and likely to fool more people.

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katharina
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quote:
Often newcomers will be poisonous in their response to disagreements they have with me, but then the ensuing thread calms things down as experienced Hatrackers gently nudge the newcomer toward the kind of civilized conversation that makes this community worth supporting. That's why we don't just eliminate posts that start out with silly attacks on me. We figure that one of the things Hatrack does - that YOU do here - is to help people grow out of that puritanical I-disagree-so-that-must-be-evil attitude that is far, far too prevalent in American society today.
Aww. Totally worth it. [Smile]

Not that I'm one of the rational civilizers you mentioned. But I like them.

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Rakeesh
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quote:

However when I read some of your words I see you pacing, your face in a scowl, shouting at the crowd. Jabbing your finger accusingly at an image of your subject. Laughing when you think you made a spectacular point, a cute aside, giving a knowinging smile as you mock opponents views like it's a joke we're all in on.

"Reasoned" and "civilized" are abstract at best. Just because you beleive your logic is reasoned and articulate, doesn't mean others do or should. And it doesn't mean your words are better than a fanatic screaming on a stage, just prettier and likely to fool more people.

I've got a wild idea here, Trent Destian: perhaps perspective is something you bring to a situation, as much as the one you're perceiving.

-----------

Also, Orincoro, something to consider: how often do you really see much less click on a google ad? I can't speak for you, but speaking for myself I can't remember the last time I really looked at one (unless it was especially funny and thus remarked upon in the forum somewhere), much less actually clicked on one. Furthermore, to my knowledge no one I know does their shopping via google ad.

Even without that anecdotal experience to make me doubt OSC is sitting in a grove of money trees, he has said repeatedly that this website doesn't generate much money. And yet people continue to bring it up again.

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Trent Destian
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We all perceive Rakeesh, in any situation. There are facts in the world to be sure, but the ideas and feelings we develop are formed by how we perceive these facts.
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Rakeesh
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Yeah, so?

The point is that you should reconsider your own perceptions critically, not just glance at them again and revel in your confirmation. But that's not as much fun, and much less flattering to the ego.

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Trent Destian
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My claim wasn't that my perceptions were correct. All that I asked was that he consider that his might not be either, that others do exist outside his own. That shouting that you are the rational one is equal and no better than someone whispering it.
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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by Orson Scott Card:
And if I ever get to feeling down about how few people even TRY to comprehend my carefully reasoned and well-founded arguments, I have only to look at the kind of mindless, groundless, unfair, and borderline insane attacks that have been directed at George W. Bush for the past eight years - and that INSTANTLY were directed at Sarah Palin. It seems that once "borking" became acceptable in American political life, it became the default stance of the puritanical Left.

Mindless, groundless, unfair, and borderline insane attacks are not exclusive to the Left, IME.

To your larger point, though, I know I'm not alone when I say that I really appreciate you providing us with a place to communicate with intelligent people about a wide variety of topics. You put up with a lot of crap, and even when I think it's deserved I realize that you certainly don't have to put up with it. [Smile]

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neo-dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by Orson Scott Card:
We keep trying to figure out a way to exploit you and make money from you...

You published an Ender Christmas book... I'd say you've done enough. [No No] [Razz]
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Rakeesh
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quote:
My claim wasn't that my perceptions were correct. All that I asked was that he consider that his might not be either, that others do exist outside his own. That shouting that you are the rational one is equal and no better than someone whispering it.
No, in fact that's not all you did. Are you even fooling yourself with that?
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
I know I'm not alone when I say that I really appreciate you providing us with a place to communicate with intelligent people about a wide variety of topics.

AMEN! [Smile]
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Trent Destian
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*sigh, alright Rakeesh.
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Clumpy
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Kudos again for not moderating your critics out into the aether of the internet, OSC. I've spent a fortune on the complete trade paperback set of your novels, but I'll buy a T-shirt one of these days. I think I'll draw the line at the Christmas (sorry, Sinterklaas Day) book, though, stemming more from my bad memories of holiday specials than anything...
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Reshpeckobiggle
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I like how everyone suddenly is on their best behavior when the big man walks in (after 2 years, no less.) Is it cowardice, a lack of conviction in ones previously incendiary statements, or simple shame over the previous behavior?
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Scott R
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There's a certain, unsettling...vibration, or shimmering, or something in the corners of my eyes when you post, Reshpeckobiggle.

I'm weaving a tiny basket out of ethernet cables, and it appears to be fading...

Why do you think that is?

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Reshpeckobiggle
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I think its because you've read the Alvin Maker series too many times.

It might also be because you take yourself way to seriously. And when I say "you," I mean everyone who find themselves on the verge of losing control of their bodily functions whenever they are faced with something disagreeable. This is common among liberals and conservatives who are cocooned in a shell of liberalism and conservatism, respectively. When you are a conservative that exists in a liberal society (and vice versa) you learn to maintain your composure in a variety of adverse situations.

I'm saying you should step outside your comfort zone sometime. It builds character.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle:
I like how everyone suddenly is on their best behavior when the big man walks in (after 2 years, no less.) Is it cowardice, a lack of conviction in ones previously incendiary statements, or simple shame over the previous behavior?

First off, I suggest that you go out and stick your head in a bucket of ice water.

Second. OSC posted a fairly lengthy reply to a thread everyone here had pretty much stopped posting in. There's nothing there to respond to.

Lastly, I personally don't care what you think, and I want you to know that.

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