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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » OSC needs your help -- Ender's Game reconciliation (Page 2)

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Author Topic: OSC needs your help -- Ender's Game reconciliation
BrokeNDerty
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I'm not sure if it is an inconsistency but maybe someone else can elaborate, but in the first formic war series it is stated that the formic ship uses a ram scoop drive witch separates the hydrogen and turns it into gamma plasma for propulsion, yet in Ender's series the MD (little doctor) is said to have been derived from the same tech which powered the formic ship while the two seem completely separate in their tech being that also the MD more closely resembles Juke's Glazer. Please forgive my laziness in writing and citation.
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Szymon
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Does anyone have info on when the reconciled edition is going to come out?
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Jake
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Or when the stickied thread on the other side can be taken down? In it, it's stated that the Cards have a tight two week deadline. That was back in the middle of July, more than half a year ago.
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Szymon
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Seriously, it's gonna be a full year soon
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scifibum
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It would almost be a shame to stop short of a year, at this point.
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Dogbreath
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Well, we're past the 1 year mark now...
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ibid
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In EG (chapter 11):
quote:
Everyone had learned the wrong lesson from Bonzo's misuse of Ender Wiggin. They all dumped though the door immediately, so that there was no chance to do anything other than name the formation they would use.
But in reality it was Rose da Nose not Bonzo that had misused Ender that way. (Chapter 8):
quote:
Rose hooked a finger over the butt of Ender's gun and pulled him to the forcefield that his the battleroom from view.
In EG Battle school students eat as much as they want (Chapter 7):
quote:
“Can I finish eating?”
“You never finish eating.”
It was true. Ender’s tray always had food on it after a meal. Ender looked at the plate and decided he was through. “Let’s go then.”

While in Ender's Shadow (Chapter 6) they have to eat everything served to them:
quote:
your portions are
scientifically calibrated to meet your
dietary needs, and in the future you will
finish every bit of what you are served.”

In EG Chapter 11 guns may be let go of:
quote:
He selected the smallest boy, Bean, handed him Tom’s gun, and made Bean kneel on Tom’s frozen legs.
While in Ender's Game Alive (around 2:04) it is implied that guns can not be let go of:
quote:
We can't drop them, so we wont be getting smacked in the game by lost weapons.
In EG (Chapter 12) it is said that thawing time in practice is 5 minutes:
quote:
he thawed in about five minutes, the way it worked in practice.
While in Ender's Game Alive (2:05) it is said to be 30 seconds.
quote:
In training mode, the flash suits unfreeze after 30 seconds.
In EG (Chapter 12) it is said that Frozen soldiers can not talk:
quote:
One of the frozen Dragon soldiers tried to answer him through jaws that were clamped shut by the flash suit.
While in Ender's Game Alive (2:05) it is said otherwise:
quote:
"So a soldier shot is as good as a shot to the heart; it freezes you completely"
"But I can still talk, so even frozen soldiers can give warnings."



[ October 11, 2015, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: ibid ]

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MrSquicky
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I'm pretty sure, when you notice things like that, a wizard did it.
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ibid
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In Ender's Game (Chapter 6)
quote:
We don't wear socks anymore.
This pretty much contradicts the entire premise of War of the Gifts.
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Kelly1101
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
In Ender's Game, right after Ender is handed his graduation orders from Graff, there is a paragraph from Bean's POV:

quote:
He felt himself wanting to cry. He hadn't cried since the first few days of homesickness after he got here.
After looking through Ender's Shadow, I see no mention of Bean crying in the first few days of Battle School and I can't imagine it would've been because of homesickness. Maybe because of Poke's death, but that's not homesickness.

Also, in Ender's Game:

quote:
He bit down on his hand to stop the feeling, to replace it with pain. It didn't help. He would never see Ender again.
In Ender's Shadow:

quote:
He bit on his lip, trying to let the pain force the emotion away. It didn't help. Ender was gone.
Insignificant contradiction, but there it is.

Also, are we to include contradictions between the movie and the book? [Big Grin]

Bean did cry from homesickness in ES. Or at least, it's implied, with the "his pillow was dry long before morning" on the first night when he's thinking of Sister Carlotta.

I know I'm over a year late to the party, but there is huge discrepancy between the ES series and Shadows in Flight, namely the length of time the babies had before the spaceship. Shadows in Flight references several times that the babies were a year old before leaving, while in Shadow of the Giant, Petra stays in Moscow for a year and then comes home and the babies are JUST over a year old-- so, the spaceship left when the babies were only a few months old.

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scifibum
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We're gonna make it to 2 years with this thing stickied, aren't we?

Edit: We did. *warm fuzzies*

[ August 09, 2016, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: scifibum ]

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Samuel Lopes
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In Ender's Game, Mazer mentions that only a few people really believed the theory on the Hive Queen. However, in Earth Afire - The Swarm, the Hive Queen theory is widely acknowledged and accepted as predominate and supported by empirical evidence.

Also, this little thing has always bugged me. Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow record different accounts of the same events, such as Dragon Army's first battle. This does make sense if you think of the difference as variation between two different first-person character accounts, similar to how two people might remember something differently. However, when the Dragon Army officers are transferred to other armies, Ender's Game mentions that all toon leaders and seconds, as well as Bean replaced other commanders who had graduated. In Ender's Shadow, though, the number of commanders graduated was nine, which is inconsistent with Ender's Game because Dragon officers plus Bean is eleven, not nine.

Will add any more if they occur to me.

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Samuel Lopes
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In response to BrokeNDerty's post, in the First Formic War series, they hadn't yet been inside a Formic ship when they were discussing what potentially powered the Formics' flight capabilities. And I don't think Victor Delgado would have had time while on the scout ship to look at what type of engine they were using, and if he did, he probably wouldn't have been able to understand what he saw. Or, as an alternate theory, the scout ship used a different type of engine than the main ship did. However, this theory is flawed because the scout ship broke off from the mothership, so they would have used the same engine.
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Szymon
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Are we going to reach a three-year milestone?

I remember I had a completely different set of friends back then, when I excitedly told them:"I might get a signed copy from OSC! Yuppie!".

Obama was the President. Islamic state was born! Ah, old times.

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Dogbreath
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This thread has been open longer than I've been married.
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scifibum
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Not sure if this came up in this thread before, but it looks like the reconciled edition was pulled/postponed indefinitely:

http://www.endersansible.com/2014/12/03/revised-enders-game-edition-postponed/

I suppose it's possible that this thread remains stickied in order to collect data points until the revised edition is revived(?).

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millernumber1
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In Children of the Fleet's author's note at the end, he mentions the project was going on while he was writing this book, and since the book was written in the year before May 2017 (the date of the author's note), that indicates it's still alive.

It's related to something OSC mentioned on the podcast he does with Rusty Humphries - that the "n-word" version of Ender's Game had somehow gotten re-released. I think that's put some kind of problems with the reconciliation version.

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Szymon
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There's one big thing that bothers me.

**THE SWARM SPOILERS***

I'm reading "The Swarm". There are multiple situations, when characters, who aren't necessarily military, for example Wila, page 190:

THE SWARM:
quote:
If the Hive Queen knows how to communicate instantaneously across vast distances from her mind to the mind of one of her own, why couldn't she do so with other creatures as well?
Remember the conversation Mazer had with Ender when they were on their way to Eros?

EG:
quote:
Graff: "The oddest thing of all was that they also don't have any communication devices on their ships. No radios, nothing that could transmit or receive any kind of signal.

"They communicate ship to ship. I've seen the videos, they talk to each other"

"True. But body to body, mind to mind. It's the most important thing we learned from them. Their communication (..) is instantaneous. (...)

[there's more, you remember, probably]

"So they knew about their defeat the moment it happened," said ender. "I always figured - everybody awlays said that they probably only found out they lost the battle twenty-five years ago."

"It keeps people from panicking," said Graff. "I'm telling you things you can't know, by the way, if you're ever going to leave I.F. Command. Before the war's over".

Ender was angry. "If you know me at all, you know I can keep a secret"

Years, or months even, befor the Second Invasion two people on a spacecraft, with no security clearance, speak freely on how Formic communications are instantaneous. More so, they consider the possibility that they are not varesle (the word is not uttered, but we already know what the idea is) and that humans could communicate with formics. But Ender, a military mastermind and the only hope of humanity, learns about it only weeks prior to the final battle? It's top secret? While it was common knowledge a century before?

To be honest, for me it is a really big... mood-killer. The whole idea in "Ender's Game", the title, even, is that he thought it was a game. Granted, he already knew of ansible before playing the simulator (and let's face it, pretty dumb for a genius not to know it was real). But it couldn't have possibly be a secret in EG if it was common knowledge a hundred years back, with Wila writing a dissertation on it, and having hundreds of people read it, and it being on the forums, and everyone in "The Swarm" talking about it. And it's highly doubtful that such information could be contained after the second invasion was over.

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Szymon
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Sorry for the lenghty quote, but it's crucial to my point.

quote:

"The video is a very tightly kept secret, Ender."

"I know. I've pieced it together, partly. You, with your tiny reserve force, and their armada, those great big heavy-bellied starships launching their swarms of fighters. You dart in at one ship, fire at it, an explosion. That's where they always stop the clips. After that, it's just soldiers going into bugger ships and already finding them dead inside."

Mazer grinned. "So much for tightly kept secrets. Come on, let's watch the video."

They were alone in the video room, and Ender palmed the door locked. "All right, let's watch."

The video showed exactly what Ender had pieced together. Mazer's suicidal plunge into the heart of the enemy formation, the single explosion, and then--

Nothing. Mazer's ship went on, dodged the shock wave, and wove his way among the other bugger ships. They did not fire on him. They did not change course. Two of them crashed into each other and exploded a needless collision that either pilot could have avoided. Neither made the slightest movement.

Mazer sped up the action. Skipped ahead. "We waited for three hours," he said. "Nobody could believe it." Then the I.F. ships began approaching the bugger starships. Marines began their cutting and boarding operations. The videos showed the buggers already dead at their posts.

"So you see," said Mazer, "you already knew all there was to see."

"Why did it happen?"

"Nobody knows. I have my personal opinions. But there are plenty of scientists who tell me I'm less than qualified to have opinions."

"You're the one who won the battle."

"I thought that qualified me to comment, too, but you know how it is. Xenobiologists and xenopsychologists can't accept the idea that a starpilot scooped them by sheer guesswork. I think they all hate me because, after they saw these videos, they had to live out the rest of their natural lives here on Eros. Security, you know. They weren't happy."

"Tell me."

"The buggers don't talk. They think to each other, and it's instantaneous like the philotic effect. Like the ansible. But most people always thought that meant a controlled communication like language -- I think you a thought and then you answer me. I never believed that. It's too immediate , the way they respond together to things. You've seen the videos. They aren't conversing and deciding among possible courses of action. Every ship acts like part of a single organism. It responds the way your body responds during combat, different parts automatically, thoughtlessly doing everything they're supposed to do. They aren't having a mental conversation between people with different thought processes. All their thoughts are present, together, at once."

"A single person, and each bugger is like a hand or a foot?"

"Yes. I wasn't the first person to suggest it, but I was the first person to believe it. And something else. Something so childish and stupid that the xenobiologists laughed me to silence when I said it after the battle. The buggers are bugs . They're like ants and bees. A queen, the workers. That was maybe a hundred million years ago, but that's how they started, that kind of pattern. It's a sure thing none of the buggers we saw had any way of making more little buggers. So when they evolved this ability to think together, wouldn't they still keep the queen? Wouldn't the queen still be the center of the group? Why would that ever change?"

"So it's the queen who controls the whole group."

"I had evidence, too. Not evidence that any of them could see. it wasn't there in the First Invasion, because that was exploratory. But the Second Invasion was a colony. To set up a new hive, or whatever."

"And so they brought a queen."

"The videos of the Second Invasion, when they were destroying our fleets out in the comet shell." He began to call them up and display the buggers' patterns. "Show me the queen's ship."

It was subtle. Ender couldn't see it for a long time. The bugger ships kept moving, all of them. There was no obvious flagship, no apparent nerve center. But gradually, as Mazer played the videos over and over again, Ender began to see the way that all the movements focused on, radiated from a center point. The center point shifted, but it was obvious, after he looked long enough, that the eyes of the fleet, the I of the fleet, the perspective from which all decisions were being made, was one particular ship. He pointed it out.

"You see it. I see it. That makes two people out of all of those who have seen this video. But it's true, isn't it."

If contradiction was to be prevented, conversation above would have to be deleted in its entirety.

This conversation is one of the most important parts of EG, where Ender gradually begins to learn about Formics, the Queen, the Ansible. Now that I finished The Swarm, I can with all confidence say: IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate these contradictions, and major ones they are.

***SWARM SPOILER***

Bingwen sees the birth of a Hive Queen. He, hours after boarding the asteroid-slash-factory, and multiple IF officers, discuss how there are Hive Queens and Adolescent Hive Queens. How ansible-mental control they have over formics varies, depending on distance, when it's full control, when just loose commands.

It is not doable to make these contradictions go away. I look at EG like it's the canon of all canons. Sure, some minor things can be changed. But now it would be full chapters that would need complete rewrites.

This is beyond contradiction, this renders both prequel trylogies non-canon. This is the only way one can enjoy them.

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Craig Childs
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Agree 100%. I made this point after Formic War: Burning Earth actually. Those comics and later the First Formic War books require a virtually complete rewrite of the EG backstory

[ November 09, 2017, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Craig Childs ]

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