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Author Topic: A few questions about religion and LDS
Hobbes
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I'll certainly look into watching this, but I have avague feeling telling me I've already comitted to something else on Saturday, I just can't rember what. [Frown] Hopefully not, it does sound like a great way to learn. [Big Grin]

Also, I didn't mean to offend anyone with the under-garments question, I've heard of this through about third-rate sem-gossip and wanted to know about it. If you don't feel like answering it I'm less then offended. [Big Grin]

Hobbes [Smile]

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Jacare Sorridente
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Hobbes-

the speakers in sacrament are merely folks from the congregation assigned to speak on a given topic. Imagine what would happen if someone gave all Hatrackers an assignment to talk on Faith, for example, and that will give you an idea of the range that these talks might take. You probably already knew that Mormons don't have paid preachers.

As to the undergarment thing- for some reason many folks (anti mormons) make a big deal out of it. Essentially it is like this: Mormons who have gone to the temple make certain covenants with God. In order to provide a physical reminder of these covenants there are certain symbolic markings in the undergarments that Mormons wear (only after they have gone through the temple do Mormons do this).

It is the same basic idea as CTR rings that many Mormons wear- CTR stands for "choose the right". Primary kids of a certain age are given rings with the letters CTR to provide a physical reminder of their commitment to choose the right.

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Hobbes
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OK, that sounds reasonable. Just out of curiosity, are these reminders required by the Church, or just a good way to be closer to your Faith? Ohh, and one thing that's always been bugging me: should I capitalize "the" in the Second Coming? [Smile]

Hobbes [Smile]

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Jacare Sorridente
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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that general conference talks are archived, so if you wanted to watch a portion of any of the last several conferences right now you could do so Here:
http://www.lds.org/conference/display/0,5234,23-1,00.html

If you choose to listen to one I suggest you start with any of the following speakers: Gordon Hinckley, Thomas Monson, Jeffrey Holland, Dallin Oaks, Henry Eyring

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Jacare Sorridente
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CTR rings are optional, church garments are mandatory for all who go through the temple
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Kayla
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quote:
Once a month the relief society holds meetings where they do chick stuff like make decorations [Roll Eyes] or quilts [Roll Eyes] or food or whatever else they decide they want to do. [Roll Eyes]
There are just so many things wrong with that sentence, I don't even know where to begin! [Big Grin]

[all smilies were added by yours truly and do not reflect the position of the original poster.]

[Wink]

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Hobbes
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Just so everyone remembers, in one of my previous posts I put out what hadn't been answered, look back on that because some of it still hasn't. Thank-you. [Wink] [Big Grin]

<--*Is less impatient than he sounds* [Wink]

Hobbes [Smile]

[ April 03, 2003, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]

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porcelain girl
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elder maxwell also gives really great talks.

and not all youth speakers stammer! heh.
in fact my little brother was quite the politician when it was his turn for talking in sacrament meeting.

all of the conference sessions are important, hobbes, but i think i am safe in saying the most widely viewed session is the first sunday session. so if you can catch any of them, i would catch that one.

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porcelain girl
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it's okay, kayla, sometimes the relief society gets together to do chick stuff like learn how to change flat tires, arm wrestle, and play touch-football.
HA.

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Kayla
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Porce, I was really teasing this time. Promise. There haven't been any good opportunities to make fun of anyone today. [Frown]

Poor Jacare. I really am enjoying this thread, and others about LDS recently. I've appreciated everyone who has patiently answered questions and put up with snarky comments. I really didn't mean to offend. I was just teasing. Honest! [Cool]

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hansenj
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I just want to say how pleased I am with this thread. I have pretty much stayed out of these LDS threads lately because I was scared to post, and other people were answering questions much better than I ever could. I am very impressed by the fact that this thread is simply someone wanting to get more information and not "lets attack the Mormons" like it could be.

Anyway, to answer one of your questions that has been missed:

quote:
The question about missionaries arose from Amka’s statement that believers continue to spread the Gospel after death. Would this continue after the Judgment?

As far as my understanding goes, there would not be a reason for missionary work to continue after the final Judgement because everyone will have had the chance to accept or reject the gospel. But, we really don't have a full understanding of what life after this will be like, so I could be wrong.

Oh, and just a side note, in all the wards I have ever been in the sacrament is passed before any of the speakers. [Smile]

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porcelain girl
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and as geoff noted earlier, (i may be mistaken, though) we do not know if there is eternal progression after the Judgement, and though there is speculation there is no doctrine stating there is, so we can only assume it's too much for us to handle right/would get in the way of the plan/people stay where they're put after the Big One.
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katharina
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*grin* Hobbes, I'm not offended. Natural reticence was fighting with desire to answer your question, and reticence won. *points* What jacare said.
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Zalmoxis
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quote:
The meeting starts with a prayer, then a hymn is sung. Any ward business is announced (ie upcoming potluck dinners, service projects etc). Then comes the youth speaker (some poor kid generally from 12-18 years old who stammers through a five minute talk). Then an adult speaker (there are many possibilities who this could be)then a hymn, the blessing and taking of sacrament (bread and water meant to remind us of the body and blood of Christ), another adult speaker, many a musical presentation thrown in then a hymn and a prayer.
Wait. Hold the boat here. The blessing and passing of the sacrament comes after two talks?

I have a vague memory of once attending a ward that did that, but from my experience the sacrament comes after the announcements and then all the speakers and musical numbers take place.

Not that there's anything wrong with either format, I'm just always interested in hearing about variations in the services. It'd be interesting to see a map of all the congregations in the US with color codings for how they hold their services.

Kayla: I found your comment pretty funny. Sadly, the truth is that, at least in the congregations I've been in, a lot of the relief society activities do cater to a very narrow range of interests. My wife would probably go more often if they had workshops on car maintanence or using power tools, etc. She has no interest in tole painting.

Of course, I'd probably be more likely to get involved in scouting if the activities focused less on sports and camping and more on cultural activities. Is there an art history merit badge?

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Hobbes
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Good katharina, I was afraid that in my ignorance I'd said something stupid and offensive (wouldn't be the first time). [Embarrassed] Anyways, glad to hear you weren't. [Smile]

I know hansenj, I was reticent to start this thread for that very reason. Often threads like this get started and are immediately (or after a while) turned into arguments over who is right instead of what people think. I'm quite happy with the results so far. [Big Grin]

So besides some of the questions that are still in the lineup (it's baseball season again! [Big Grin] ) what, exactly, is the sacrament (how is it done) and what does it symbolize?

One more time (though probably not the last), big huge thanks to everyone whose took the time to answer my questions, you guys are great! [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin] ((((everyone))))

Hobbes [Smile]

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Jon Boy
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In the sacrament, bread and water are blessed and passed to the congregation. If you want to read the text of the prayers, go here and here. The sacrament is a renewal of baptismal covenants. We remember Christ, we take His name upon us, and we promise to follow His commandments, so that we may have His spirit. The sacrament symbolizes Christ's sacrifice for us and gives us an opportunity to be washed clean from our sins.

Edited to point out that we now use water instead of wine, so there's just that one change in the prayer.

[ April 03, 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]

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Hobbes
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Well after looking at that site I have another question. Right after the part you highlighted Jon Boy, it says:

quote:
O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this awine• to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.
I thought Mormons didn't have alcohol. I guess that's not really a question but maybe you can answer it anyways. [Wink]

Hobbes [Smile]

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Jon Boy
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*points to note on above post*

The revelation forbidding alcohol hadn't come yet. It's in section 89, while the sacrament prayer is found in section 20. So the prayer has been amended.

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Hobbes
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Ahh OK. Actually, not having alcohol is one of things I like most about the Mormon religion. [Smile]

Hobbes [Smile]

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katharina
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It works with the sacrament prayer becuase of section 27 in the Doctrine and Covenenants.
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Jacare Sorridente
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quote:
quote:

Once a month the relief society holds meetings where they do chick stuff like make decorations or quilts or food or whatever else they decide they want to do.

There are just so many things wrong with that sentence, I don't even know where to begin!

[all smilies were added by yours truly and do not reflect the position of the original poster.]

Heh, I guess it is still a difficult thing to tell when I am joking and when I am not. My explanations were a bit clinical so I tried to interject a bit of kinda sarcastic humor that is nonetheless kinda true. See, the thing is this relief society get together I mentioned is planned by the Relief society sisters so they really do choose to do whatever they want. For example, in our ward there have recently been symposia about Islam given by some local islamic ladies trying to promote understanding of their religion as well as a number of similar things in the same vein. However, the fact is that many of the sisters like to do scrapbooking, decorations etc and so that is often what is done. My wife really loves that kind of thing.
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Hobbes
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Well, now that this thread has fallen to the second page I feel justified in bunping it up with some unanswered questions. [Smile]

quote:
How exactly does one commune with God? By this I mean both the mechanics of the question and the response one gets.

In the Proxy thread it was mentioned that Baptism is more than symbolic, so I’m curious, does it do anything besides

I'll probably come up with some new questions later, but for now I'll just bump these up.

Hobbes [Smile]

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Obi Jon Boy Kenobi
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I'm not entirely sure what your first question is about (are you just asking about prayer?), but I'll try to answer.

Prayer is very simple. It's just a talk with God. We believe that he's a real, physical being, and that he's listening. He is our father, and he loves us. Talk to him. Tell him how you feel, and ask him questions. Moroni 10:4-5 discusses prayer in a simple, concise manner. But if that's not quite what you were looking for, let me know.

Baptism is the physical display of the covenant you are entering into. You take Christ's name upon you and receive a remission of your sins. It is a spiritual rebirth, and it is the gate to the path that leads to heaven.

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Hegemon
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Again the Bible Dictionary has a good summay. One relevant quote:
quote:
Baptism in water has several purposes. It is for the remission of sins, for membership in the Church, and for entrance into the celestial kingdom; it is also the doorway to personal sanctification when followed by the reception of the Holy Ghost.

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Hobbes
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Mostly I was curious about batm because it was stated that it is more than symbolic, yet proxy batisms seem (to me) to be very symbolic. This is a contradiction I'd like to deal with, is a proxy batism not symbolic? If so, then why is it not symbolic when another body is being used?

Hobbes [Smile]

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Hobbes
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Jon Boy, basically my question was if it was necessary to do something before talking to God, like bowing your head or something. I don't really know.

Hobbes [Smile]

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Obi Jon Boy Kenobi
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Typically, when praying, you kneel, bow your head, and fold your hands or arms. It's just a sign of respect and reverence.

[ April 04, 2003, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Obi Jon Boy Kenobi ]

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ludosti
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quote:
This is a contradiction I'd like to deal with, is a proxy batism not symbolic? If so, then why is it not symbolic when another body is being used?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "contradiction". Baptism has the same symbolic meanings applied to the person for whom the baptism is being performed - entering into a covenant with God, being able to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, etc. For the physical person who is acting as the proxy, it serves as a reminder of their own baptism and the covenants made at that time. The sacrament (mentioned earlier in conjuction with church meetings) also serves as a reminder of the baptismal covenants and life long dedication we should have to Christ.

quote:
my question was if it was necessary to do something before talking to God, like bowing your head or something
Usually, when praying it is considered respectful to close your eyes, bow your head, and cross your arms (or clasp your hands). This is what you normally do when there is any sort of public prayer taking place. As far as personal prayer goes, often people will kneel, in addition to the other physical manifestations of reverence and respect for God. But, that doesn't mean that, in order to pray, you must do those things. There have been many times when I've prayed silently in my head while driving in the car, shopping, or at work. [Smile]
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Hobbes
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Okay, that's what I figured, I just wanted to know if it was required, or just repectful (OK, maybe not "just", but I think you get it [Wink] ).

Hobbes [Smile]

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Hobbes
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I thought it was a contradiction because someone mentioned that a proxy batism must be preformed since baptism is more than symbolic and requires a body. It just seems to me that if someone is doing it for you, that is symbolic. If that makes any sense.

Hobbes [Smile]

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katharina
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Hmmm.... I was the one who said that, and I don't think I was wrong.
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ludosti
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quote:
I thought it was a contradiction because someone mentioned that a proxy baptism must be preformed since baptism is more than symbolic and requires a body. It just seems to me that if someone is doing it for you, that is symbolic. If that makes any sense.
I kind of understand. Baptism is both a ritual (physical) act and also a symbolic act - it requires both aspects to be a valid baptism. Since it is a physical action it requires a physical body. As a symbolic act, it carries deeper meaning than "hey, this guy just dunked me under water".

Being baptised for someone else is a symbolic act, in that it is your body (not their's) that is being baptised. It is the presence of a body that is important, not whose body it is, as strange as that may sound. But we believe that God accepts (and evens commands) such a practice.

I'm not sure if I'm helping any....

[ April 04, 2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: ludosti ]

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Hobbes
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I'm getting the idea at least. [Smile]

I have a question about missions. As far as I can tell they aren't required by the Church, but are highly suggested for men. Is it the same for women (and was I correct about the first statment)? Also, I've read a little about OSC's mission (mostly from introductions and such) but I really don't know what a full blowen mission is like. (Not a question again but still answerable [Wink] ).

Hobbes [Smile]

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Hobbes
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Now I realize that I'm getting into the less spirtual/belief side of Mormonism, so I might pause on my question asking and go back over what I know before I start asking questions again. I'll certainly be interested to read whatever anyone posts though! [Smile] Also, if anyone wants to add their own little (or big, whatever [Wink] ) comment, I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Note: I don't think understanding the more down to Earth everyday part isn't important, it's just much much less important, and not really why I started this thread.

Hobbes [Smile]

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Amka
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It is a commandment to go on a mission for men. Obviously, not all men obey that commandment. It is not a commandment for women nor is it really even expected of them. It is an opportunity, should they happen to not be married. Men are 19 when they can go, women are 21.

I was married at 20, so I didn't go on a mission, and can't comment on daily life other than you get up early, study the scriptures and pray, then go out to do the work, whatever that may be, and you should be home by 9:00 pm. You have one "prep" day where you can do stuff like laundry and have a bit of recreation, like playing volleyball with the church youth.

[ April 04, 2003, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Amka ]

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porcelain girl
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i knew it was highly encouraged for young men to go on missions, but i was not aware that it was a commandment.
i am not saying you are wrong, i just hadn't heard that.
for example, i had a boy in my ward that was married in the temple at the age of 18, obviously having not gone on a mission.
if going on a mission was a commandment, would he have been able to get married in the temple?

honestly curious here.

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ludosti
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quote:
As far as I can tell they aren't required by the Church, but are highly suggested for men. Is it the same for women (and was I correct about the first statment)?
I'm not sure whether I'd classify it as a commandment or not, all I've ever really heard is that "all worthy young males should serve a mission". In my mind it is an expectation, perhaps bordering on commandment. [Smile] For women it is "encouraged", although that encouragement may or may not be made manifest in actuality. I decided when I was a teenager (15) that I wanted to serve a mission, so for me, it was a life goal (like getting a degree). I just always geared myself towards doing it. My family was very supportive (although some extended family members seemed baffled by it). Most of the other church members that I came into contact with were also, but they always seemed to think that I should get married instead. I saw no reason why I should get married instead of going on a mission. I had set marriage as a goal to be attained after a mission. [Smile] It was a little funny to me that my non-LDS friends thought that my serving a mission was a great thing, while many church members seemed to think it was a "well, if you don't have a husband, then I guess so...." kind of thing.

A mission is a difficult thing. It forces you (at least if you have the right attitude about it) to focus on other people instead of yourself. You are instantly shoved outside of your comfort zone (going strange places, maybe speaking a strange language, spending all your time with a strange person, doing strange things, etc.).

As for the mission experience: You usually spend time first in a Missionary Training Center (the U.S. one is in Provo, UT). You spend about 3 weeks there if you are going somewhere where you already know the language, and about 2 months if you are learning a new language. You take intensive language and gospel study courses. You usually study, live, etc. with people who are going to the same place that you are. You basically learn and sleep and eat. [Smile] Then, you are sent to the area where you will serve (the area that you received your call to, which is assigned, not chosen by yourself). Once there, you spend your time in community service and church service.

I went to Bulgaria. My time was spent running/helping to run the local church units, helping the local church members (spiritually and physically), teaching English classes, and looking for and teaching people who were interested in learning more about the Church. One day a week was our P-day (Preparation Day) where we had about half a day to do our laundry, correspond with our families and friends, do general shopping, see sights, and goof off. [Smile] Each missionary is assigned a "companion" with whom they are expected to be 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Your companion changes from time to time, as missionaries are moved around within the area and mission (geographical areas). You also may move around several times. My mission covered the entire country and there were a total of about 100 missionaries in about 13 different cities. I lived in one city for 8 months (and had 3 different companions), the second city for 5 months (and had 5 different companions) - one month of which I was travelling back and for to another city every few days, and the third city for 3 months (with 2 different companions). The time passed pretty quickly (men serve for a total of 2 years, women for 18 months). It was a fabulous experience that has forever shaped my personality and my life. At that time, it was hands-down the best thing I'd done in my life. It was very hard work, but very rewarding and wonderful. [Smile]

[ April 04, 2003, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: ludosti ]

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Hobbes
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I’ve been listening to the conference through the net (thanks for the link Jacare); I caught the end of Saturday and the whole thing today. I can’t say that I have a whole lot more questions now, I’m still digesting; but I do have a few more questions that just kind of came out of the ether.

I know I said I’d keep away from the less spiritual questions, but I have one that I wanted to know. The first is: how is money handled for the missions?

The spiritual question I have is really kind of a big one, in fact, I can’t believe I haven’t asked it yet, makes me feel ignorant (like that’s not a surprise [Wink] ). Anyways, are The Son, The Father and The Holy Ghost all separate? What role does each one play in The Faith? Anything else you want to add about that would be good too.

By the way, I've received the afore-mentioned Book of Mormon and am slowly making my way through it.

Hobbes [Smile]

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mackillian
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You know, when I see the missionaires out around here, I always smile.

I suppose 'cause I think of my good LDS friends. [Smile]

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porcelain girl
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young men and women are expected to work their hardest to earn money to pay for their missions.
their families are also encouraged to help within their means.
if an individual is still unable to pay the way, the church helps. this money comes from tithing.

in the lds faith, God the father, the son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three seperate beings.
Heavenly Father and Jesus are made of flesh and bone, while the Holy Ghost in a personage of spirit.
i'll let someone else get more into detail.

there is one more session of conference, and they archive all the general sessions, so you can always check out ones you missed.

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Hobbes
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bump.

Hobbes [Smile]

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Amka
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Lot of topics there, which one would you like to talk about?

Also, a little more clear on the missionaries and how they are funded. It used to be that missionaries paid their own expenses. But it was a bit unfair. A missionary called to a mission in South America, for instance, could expect to pay only about 50 dollars a month, while a missionary in Japan could expect to pay about 800 dollars a month. A few years ago they changed this so each missionary pays into the church missionary fund a set amount of I think around 400 dollars. This is then distributed accordingly. You don't have to have (or be) a missionary to donate to the missionary fund, and as mentioned before, if it is beyond your reach, others will help you. Often, members of a ward will donate to the missionary fund to take care of the missionary.

Sorry, I can't resist the temptation, but we have a cool program that just started. It is called the Perpetual Education Fund. Basically, this is to put those who otherwise could not afford it through school or some kind of training by which they can increase their self reliance. They then pay back the cost, and it is used for someone else. This pretty much for people in less developed countries. Anyone can donate into the PEF. It started about two years ago, and we are starting to see the results now. A program that started even before that was the micro business loan. No, its not like small businesses here, but they are things like buying someone a sewing machine so she can sew to make a living, or one family got the equipment to bake bread. As they can, they then repay it (no interest), but now they are able to sustain themselves AND they improve the economy where they are.

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Hobbes
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Well, I wanted some more elaboration on what porcelain girl has been talking about mostly.

Hobbes [Smile]

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Jacare Sorridente
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I'll elaborate- We believe that God and Christ both have resurrected bodies just like the one that anyone who obtains the highest degree of heaven will receive. You can probably see the implication this has as compared to the rest of the Christian world- for example, it means that God actually inhabits a certain place rather than being everywhere at the same time. It also means that when God created Adam in his own image he did so literally- ie God is anthropomorphic.

We believe that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost are one in the same sense that Christ desired his apostles to be one with him (John 17:21)that is one in purpose, desire, faith etc.

The Holy Ghost differs from God and Christ in that he does not have a body- he is a spirit person.

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Hobbes
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<--*Likes it* [Big Grin]

One question from that, if God and Jesus are like us, how does the Holy Ghost relate? Where did the Holy Ghost come from?

Hobbes [Smile]

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katharina
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[Smile] No idea. Lord not seen fit to reveal it.
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Jon Boy
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Katharina's right. We don't actually know where the Holy Ghost came from or anything like that. What we do know is that he is a being who doesn't have a body. He could be a spirit who volunteered to not receive a body yet so that he could help us all. But the important thing is that he is an actual person and not some mysterious force. (Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone.)
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katharina
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No, that's right, Jon Boy.

That exact question (Who IS the Holy Ghost?) was used as an example in the Ensign (church magazine) once as a question for which we don't have the answer.

*completely nonflippant answer following*
You can ask the Lord, though. There are many scriptures about learning the mysteries of God, and it involves repenting, studying, acting on principles already known, and asking in faith. The Lord might tell you, but he's the only one who knows at this point. [Smile]

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Jettboy
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Question: Are "Mormons" the only religion that sees the physical world (or at least physicality) as a good thing? I know that Christians in general believe that there is going to be a resurrection, but at best it is seen as a nuetral condition. Ironically, although many may speak positively of the resurrection of the body, they often consider God having a body as blasphemous.

Now I know that the Romans and especially the Greeks thought very highly of the human body. However, they still saw it as tremendously superior to the Spirit. The idea of the Christian Resurrection was seen, both in and out of the New Testament, as silly and proposterous.

[ April 08, 2003, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Jettboy ]

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dkw
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Jettboy, classical Christianity also sees the physical world as a good thing. One of the reasons the Gnostics and Marcionites were considered heretics is that they denied the goodness of the material world. They had a strict “spirit good/body bad" dualism.

Unfortunately, it’s a heresy that keeps popping up. It does so often enough that many people believe that the early church, (and by extension the modern church) supported this belief, when in fact it is still considered a heresy by most denominations. Physical world = created by God = good.

[ April 08, 2003, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]

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