quote:Of course, her husband also managed to get himself captured by an evil brain, her daughter wound up spawing children who got inevitably featured in terrible romantic novels, her twin boys kept reliving stories from the Bible, and her youngest son talked to microscopic unicorns. So maybe it's all for the best.
[nitpick]The unicorns weren't microscopic. The microscopic things and the unicorn were from two separate books. [/nitpick]
posted
First, Mrs. Murry’s lab was not in the kitchen, it was adjacent to the kitchen with a door between them. The twins didn’t like it when she cooked in the lab.
Second, I liked A House Like a Lotus. An Acceptable Time, on the other hand . . .
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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One of them is to cuddle Christy's baby right now. Logic does not play into this.
You see, Christy and Tom are going to be the best parents ever, and I am going to be the best Aunt. Who could wait for that?
[Ah, well, actually I do know why I'm getting impatient -- we had a little 2-yr old who went to have a brain tumor resected, and he's not going to survive, and we're just hoping he'll wake up enough to get off the ventilator and spend some more time with his parents. It's a down, down day, and I need to be around happy bouncing babies.
You see, if the stars align right, I just may have me very own littlun (technically not mine, but who cares about technicalities anyway) to play with most any night.
posted
Sorry but I don't buy the "cooking is chemistry argument." Steve tries it on me all the time, but then when I start to cook something he has to come in and "tweak" it to make it palatable for his own consumption. The artistic component in cooking is much higher than the scientific. I, as a chemical engineer, am absolutely lousy at cooking though I can run chemistry experiments just fine.
See here, I have no idea what you are talking about.
No, really, I just want a baby! I really, really want a baby. I think my ovaries are finally kicking in with a vengence, and the whole CT-let thing just isn't going to happen, so I've pinned my longings on my Hatrack family to provide.
Heyyyy ... hmmm ... so, Paul, are you dating anyone? You know, there are a lot of benefits to having children exactly at your age, whatever it is.
posted
We have a 13 month old that is as cute as pie visiting us if you would like to make a run down to Rolling Meadows, IL. I think mom and dad are taking him to the zoo today.
I think I'm ready to try making babies... but the raising them, I might need a couple years before I'm ready Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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STOP YOU FOOLS!!! YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GETTING INTO! GO BACK, GO BACK, BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE. TOO LATE....
Eh, um, what I mean is, what a wonderful idea.
Seriously, having a kid is harder than anything you've ever done before. Anything.
So line up all the help you can get right now. Auntie CT? You are one of the sweetest, most wonderful people on Hatrack. Christy, Tom, get a contract from her, in writing, that she'll come over at least once a week for the first six months after Junior is born.
Any relatives in the area? Line them up now. Move in a few if possible.
Children are absolutely overwhelming, which means you are right, Christy: there is never a good time to have them. So once your life is somewhat stable, you might as well suck it up and go for it. It will never get better enough to justify it later.
But be aware that it will completely change your life. Everything becomes that much harder. Even just going to the movies for an evening becomes a major planning event. (Do you have a babysitter? How about a back-up? Is there enough supplies in the house? Phone numbers to contact you. Emergency numbers in case the sitter can't contact you. Etc.) Multiply that for things like work, vacations, etc. You have to fight for everything that you do.
Will you be happier with children? Hard to say. Debbie and I often think that we'd be happier without Joshua.
There's just one problem. We wouldn't give him up for the world. And if we hadn't had him, he never would have been.
So good luck, guys. You're in for a hellava ride.
Posts: 2473 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Wow, my thread exploded! I had given it up for lost.
I have already reminded CT about the technicalities of baby making. Sheesh, she's the doctor and all!
Andrew, everything in my logical mind tells me that I really don't want to have children. That I enjoy my peaceful home and lots of sleep. I know you can never go back. But every time I see a little bundle of joy pass, something in me nags that reluctant part that it is all worth it. *grin*
Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Yeah, in the end, it is probably worth it. There is nothing like the welling of love you feel when you look at that little child you helped to create.
It's just that kids are so very demanding, it's hard to remember sometimes along the way.
(And don't forget the stress that comes along with it. If there are any little issues you and Tom have still to iron out, take care of them now. They're liable to become big issues after the baby comes!
(Oh, yes, and take that trip to Hawaii NOW! You'll never have it this easy again.)
Posts: 2473 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Andrew, everything in my logical mind tells me that I really don't want to have children. That I enjoy my peaceful home and lots of sleep. I know you can never go back. But every time I see a little bundle of joy pass, something in me nags that reluctant part that it is all worth it. *grin*
Am I the only one who finds such a thought terrifying? That hormones can exert such control over us that we ignore all rationality and logic? That at the bottom line, we are nothing but preprogammed machines of self replication?
Is that really all there is? How bleak.
Posts: 5383 | Registered: Dec 1999
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For people who want/don't want children that's not "all they are." It just happens to be PART of what they are. And that hormonal desire is most assuredly coupled with positive experiences with children so that this desire is nurtured instead of killed. Unlike your experiences, which were apparently all bad due to your younger siblings and your father's metamorphosis in reaction to having them.
posted
If you aren't thinking of 69 when you see it, I'd say something is more wrong then if you DO...
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
And sometimes, Ralphie, your popularity whoring blinds you to subtle points.
My post as written, is pointing out that Christy is saying, "Using logic, I see no reason to have a kid now, but my hormones are trumping that."
That is what I find scary. Hormone trumping logic. In the case of baby making for a nice couple, maybe it turns out to be a good thing. But hormone trumping is also what leads to 40 year old men going on an infidelity spree to prove their manhood.
Hormones over logic scares me, good or bad outcome.
So stop trying to be everybodies best bud, and ease off, chica.
Posts: 5383 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Slash, have you considered that hormones are not all that is at issue here? As far as I can tell, Christy may assume it's hormones, and you almost certainly have, but it wasn't actually stated, and it isn't necessarily true. Perhaps it's subconscious logic. She sees others who are happy. Her collection of societal memes have told her that personal freedoms are (or should be) more important than having a child, but there's no clear cut all-inclusive logic that would dictate that, without some unstated/arguable assumptions, is there?
Logic has its limitations, as do hormones. Anyone who relies on only one of them (or even believes that he does) may not have as complete an understanding of reality as he thinks.
posted
I understand, Slash, and I was making a general counterpoint, using your comment on Christy's sentence.
I don't even disagree that it's scary to think of hormones trumping logic. But I also think it's scary to think that logic trumps all, because (a) logic doesn't apply in all situations, and (b) it frequently, if not always, "assumes facts not in evidence."
I'm willing to either drop this or move it elsewhere, but I didn't think it had crossed lines yet.
quote:And sometimes, Ralphie, your popularity whoring blinds you to subtle points.
Sometimes you are very black and white. I don't think this is a slam, though sometimes I believe it clouds your thinking. Calling me a popularity whore can be nothing but a slam, whether or not you believe it's clouding my thinking. I don't really think I deserved that.
quote:My post as written, is pointing out that Christy is saying, "Using logic, I see no reason to have a kid now, but my hormones are trumping that."
That is what I find scary. Hormone trumping logic. In the case of baby making for a nice couple, maybe it turns out to be a good thing. But hormone trumping is also what leads to 40 year old men going on an infidelity spree to prove their manhood.
Hormones over logic scares me, good or bad outcome.
So stop trying to be everybodies best bud, and ease off, chica.
I can't argue that hormones trump logic, because I know they do for me all the time. But we've had the conversation where we came to the conclusion that the thing that makes us human is the ability to desire something that is inappropriate and then CHOOSE not to fulfill the desire, instead of simply going with instinct.
Because I've had this conversation with you, your sentence: "Is that really all there is? How bleak," seemed to me to be a statement that I suspect you don't really believe, but used as bait and a deliberately black-and-white bait, at that.
I can disagree with you without you slamming me. It doesn't mean that I all of a sudden don't love you or look up to you or that I'm trying to kick down the Kahuna in an effort to take his place. It just means I don't agree with you.
posted
Having children is never a logical choice! I mean really, you take all the freedom's you enjoy before kids, the money you have pre-kids and it doesn't make any logical sense to add a tornado to the orderly life you've led! I think the hormonal response is programmed into us so we keep our species going
Have children when you are young. The older you get the harder it gets to keep up with them Posts: 1132 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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Slash: Note that I retain my logic in the midst of emotion. Yes, I want a baby, and I want a baby badly, and I want a baby now ... but I want Christy's baby.
Ah, the lifelong pleasures of a training in philosophy ...
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
*laugh* There's logic if I ever saw any, CT.
I've been trying to think of a good response to Slash, and I wanted to say that I don't think he is out of place, or feel that he was criticizing my personal logic for wanting children. Yet, still I'd like to explain.
I think there's some logic to it, albeit some of it may be hormonal, but there is a definite logical desire on my part to bring a child into the world that will hopefully combine the best aspects of Tom and myself and continue on to see what the future brings when we are no longer able. In some ways, too, it is a desire to see the world the way a child does again, to live childhood through their eyes. In some ways it is a desire to be needed in a new way now that I am comfortable in the support and love of my husband. How does one compare these desires to financial stability, time for self, and the strong bond that I have already made with Tom that will undergo a change? I'm not sure, but I'd like to find out.
Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Every single one of us is the result of an unbroken line of fertility, stretching back to the dawn of life. That is kind of a powerful thing.
Even as a child, I was always good with the younger ones. I worked in my church nursery. I always ended up playing 'mom' to the younger kids on the playground. I was the most popular baby sitter in my church.
I never thought I wouldn't have kids, even if I didn't marry, I was going to work in an orphanage in Brazil. One way or another, kids were in the cards for me.
I took all the leave I could after my first one was born. There was less of it than I had hoped because I was put on bed rest at 30 weeks. After my paid leave was gone, I took the full 12 weeks unpaid leave. Then, I went back to work and petitioned for part time while my mother looked after him. Part time turned out to be 32 hours a week instead of 40. Not a big change.
My mom's health went south and I had to put him in a daycare/preschool. I was lucky, there. He had great caregivers who really loved him (and even came to see us when he wasn't going there anymore) and I really believed in the place. It was still hard. Ron was travelling (gone for 3 to 5 days and nights each week) and we both missed him.
I had no freedom at all. My whole life was work. During the day, mind-numbing, soul-stealing bureaucrasy, at nightcooking, feeding and bathing the baby, coaxing him to sleep so I could clean up. Sometimes he'd wake up before I even got to bed myself. I would sometimes take him to the daycare for an hour or two on my day off, so I could do the shopping without having to stop to change a diaper or clean up spit-up, etc. Once, I took him to day care for an hour so I could have lunch with my mother without worrying about him crying the whole time, wanting to be held so that we had to take turns eating, or again with the spit-up.
He grew older and it got easier in some ways and harder in others. Then we moved so Ron could have a job that lety him be home everynight, and I chose not to transfer my job. He would be making more money, and we'd be close to HIS family, so I thought I might have a little help. Then we started trying for number two.
So I was 7 months pregnant when we moved. Healthy pregnancy, healthy baby, healthy toddler. Life was full, and I was okay. When Liam was about a year old, I weaned him. That, for some reason, was when the depression hit. It was awful. It was HELL. Liam and Robert were both so active that taking them anywhere by myself was worse than a forced march. And I didn't have anyone to turn to, really. Ron sometimes took extra time off work.
I finally talked to my doctor, and we saw a pattern. I was really skinny and hyperactive before Robert. After I weaned Robert, I had a brief bout of depression that passed after a week or two. But then I was a LOT more relaxed, a lot less hyper, than I had EVER been. The first baby reset my 'normal' operating style.
The second baby did, too, but instead of just being calmer, I was depressed. So depressed that I felt the boys would be better off in daycare, or maby better off without me. I tried to think of ways to kill myself that would be least traumatic for those I loved (and not make too big a mess for anyone to clean up). I couldn't stand to look at myself.
I took the kids to the playground, and forced myself to play with them. We did some learning games and flashcards, we did workbooks together. But my heart wasn't in it. I knew I was supposed to feel something, I just didn't. I would cry after fun outings because I just didn't enjoy them and I didn't know why. I was afraid the boys would think I was mad at them. I wasn't.
I worked really hard at keeping their lives happy. Ron enrolled me in some art classes, then Tai Chi. It was fun, but sometimes I'd skip off and go to a movie by myself. Sometimes it was okay, and I'd tell myself it wasn't real, that I was being silly. And sometimes I felt very, very trapped.
I'm on medication now. Zoloft, a pretty low dose. I have lots to do. I have friends in the community. I work out, etc. I have myself back again, thanks to a combination of chemicals I may need for the rest of my life. I'm happy, the boys are happy.
I enjoy my family. Everything the boys do seems magical. Not a day goes by that they don't make me laugh until I nearly pop. Life is soo good.
But a couple of months ago, we had a pregnancy scare, and we were both terrified. What if the new baby reset my speed even lower? We were not sure we could face that. Turns out we didn't have to.
The thing is, pregnancy changes you. It changes your life, your responsibilities, even your body. But it can also change you in ways you don't expect. I'm not as psycho as some of the stories you hear, but I've been through a LOT in getting to the place where I'm happy with who I am.
If I had it to do over again, I would. I can't imagine a world without Robert and Liam. They are so bright and special to me.
I am, however, permanently different than I was (not so bad, as I was kind of hyper, impulsive and wee bit hard to control before having kids). Everything was pretty good after the first one. I was so much calmer, more stable and relaxed. I was sure I wanted a house full of 'em. I sort of still do, but it might not be as easy as changing my dose or something, if I have another. I value what I have to much to risk it, I think.
I know you and Tom will be wonderful parents, and I honestly don't mean to rain on your parade. I love my kids. My life is great! I have a wonderful guy who stood by me when times were bad. Two happy, smart, picturesque boys .
But when you have yours, pay close attention to your mood. Don't shrug it off, or tell yourself it's nothing if your hormones start to drag you down. I thought I could fight it by being 'rational' by getting exercise, by making myself do things that I should have liked doing. Even charity work and community involvement. I just ended up getting so run down that I caught viral meningitis. The only thing that gave me back my life was a little blue pill.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I was just looking at some of the earliest threads that hadn't been purged, came across this, and thought that it was an artifact that some of the old timers (Tom and Christy not least among them) might find interesting to read.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: AndrewR:
Slash: Note that I retain my logic in the midst of emotion. Yes, I want a baby, and I want a baby badly, and I want a baby now ... but I want Christy's baby.
Ah, the lifelong pleasures of a training in philosophy ...
This is especially funny to read when recalling the fact that CT wandered off with both Christy's and my children at the farmer's market during CarrieCon a couple years back. Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: AndrewR:
Slash: Note that I retain my logic in the midst of emotion. Yes, I want a baby, and I want a baby badly, and I want a baby now ... but I want Christy's baby.
Ah, the lifelong pleasures of a training in philosophy ...
This is especially funny to read when recalling the fact that CT wandered off with both Christy's and my children at the farmer's market during CarrieCon a couple years back.
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: I was just looking at some of the earliest threads that hadn't been purged, came across this, and thought that it was an artifact that some of the old timers (Tom and Christy not least among them) might find interesting to read.
Thanks, Noem. That was fun.
Too bad Tom can't make that particular brag any longer. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
As a young man in his twenties, kids seem to be like dogs who slowly learn to talk.... if your laughing you think thats a joke, if your afraid then you are also in your early twenties and consider contraceptives as Gods material will on the subject.
My cousin has the only two kids in the family this generation, and they rock. Shes a stay at home mom who babysits any kids who dont teach her own bad habits. Her husband will do just about any job as many hours as you'll give him, working class sucks with two little kids at home, but he can always bring home free chicken from KFC! I'll admit a bit of jealousy, that it must be nice to have that bond with a happy healthy child (especially when I fear that mine would attack me while I slept) and the rewards of being a stay at home mom seem to be more than enough for my cousin. Atleast until theyre both in school, I think what Ela did was very sensitive and considerate in the long run even if they had to do without somethings.
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posted
*laugh* You honor me. Thanks for resurrecting this, Noemon! It seems so long and yet not so very long ago.
Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
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By the way, Christy, when I was at Worldcon last week I kept seeing this woman who looked startlingly like you would if you had grey hair. It was kind of disconcerting, actually.
I asked her if she was related to you, but she didn't recognize the name.
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