posted
Sometimes I'm leery of professing myself as a Christian because I'm afraid to be labeled as someone who would come up with this. This sort of thing really pisses me off. I suppose that maybe I view commercialization as possibly more evil than it is -- but then again, maybe not.
If someone is stupid enough to buy this tripe, then they have more money than grey matter in their shrunken cranial cavity.
I too am mad, Godric. That publication is a sad demonstration of how traditional values and Faith are belittled by "being as comfortable with God as you are with cleaning your own pores."
Well that's a relief. I wonder if I should say a few rosaries while I trim my toenails?
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posted
In this version, just to make sure that they rule the market, they added an 11th commandment: "Though shalt have no other magazines before thee"
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Thou shalt not comb thy wet hair out with a brush. Use a wide-toothed comb! A comb for God's sake! He will truly appreciate it! Truly!
"Try my product?!" -The Video Professor
(I have this bad vision of that annoying "CEO" of the company that makes the "Video Professor" CD-ROMs that teach you how to use software for your computer also promoting this magazine.)
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posted
I can't think of anything less Christian than trying to make a buck by hanging on JCs coattails.
I have yet to meet anyone who spent much time talking about how they were "Christians" who actually acted like one.
My policy is never adveritise to be Christian except through my actions. If people can't tell that I'm a follower of Christ by how I behave, then I'm not actually following Christ very well.
quote: by their fruits ye shall know them Matt 7:20.
quote:By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. John 13:35
posted
I dunno. It doesn't bug me. Doesn't appeal to me, but a girlfriend of mine has three daughters, two of them teens, and I could see it appealing to at least one of them. And as a parent, anything that reinforces a love of God and interest in reading the Bible can't be too bad. Yeah it's a little silly, but lots of young girls are a little silly, and were it me, I'd rather have my daughter reading Revolve than Seventeen.
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quote:One entry in an advice column called Blab says, "God made guys to be the leaders. That means they lead in relationships. They tell you they like you" first, not vice versa.
That's not advice I would want any independent teenage girl to believe.
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posted
Actually, I think it's better if girls wait for the guy to say something. This doesn't infringe on her ability to be independant. It addresses a general difference between men and women. Women tend to think stuff to death, where a guy may only be thinking what he wants for lunch. That old internet joke about the guy who is thinking about everything *but* his date while his date is thinking he's angry at her, disappointed in her, etc is funny because it has a grain of truth. I remember as a teen thinking a guy liked me, put myself forward, and it turned out it simply hadn't occurred to him yet. While it might be seem like a great idea on the outset, tell him how you feel, so forth, it is a lot safer for the heart if you wait, give it time, give HIM time. Wouldn't you prefer your daughter go into her marriage without a gazillion scars on her heart from putting herself forward too quickly?
So while it sounds archaic, I don't disagree entirely with the sentiment. My daughter can still be very independant...I will encourage her to go after whatever profession she's interested in. Even if what lights her fire is diesel mechanics.
edit: I'm not sure I'm 100% on board with the God made guys to be leaders thing, but I think it's important to let guys *think* that God made them to be leaders. It makes them feel better when it turns out they're not as smart as we are.
Godric is the only one who has identified themself as a Christian. I have not professed my Faith as being holier than thou in any sense whatsoever.
I believe the tone of this thread is to critisize the publishers of this version of The Bible as belittling It of the respect it deserves. I am all for prayer at any time a person wants or needs to pray. I simply did not like the tone of the passages where being close to God is almost important as clean pores. Almost.
I personally think that as Ralphie has eluded to, to suggest prayer in the manner this magazine does is silly at best and disrespectful at worst. Sometimes, there are good ideas that are just implemented badly. This is one of them.
posted
you have a good point jeniwren, but the point of the magazine saying this was to encourage the idea that women should be submissive to men.
I think it's weird that some christian groups attack Mormonism for "adding to the bible" while the same christian groups make stuff like this magazine.
posted
Alucard, I'm very sorry if what I said offended you. It was not intended as a slight to you or anyone else in this forum. My comment was in response to Godric's opening statement
quote:Sometimes I'm leery of professing myself as a Christian because I'm afraid to be labeled as someone who would come up with this.
[ August 30, 2003, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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posted
Frankly Alucard, I'm a woman, and while I am sometimes frank, I've never answered to that name.
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posted
Ron Lambert - Spokesperson for classing the joint up.
While I understand why someone would think it was perfectly reasonable to make the Bible appealing to different demographics, it seems to me this particular magazine is couching the importance of the scriptures within beauty tips and boy advice.
When I was a teenager, I studied a chapter of the Bible every day, and I had a subscription to Seventeen magazine I eagerly awaited each month. They both served their purposes - I developed a relationship with my god from the scriptures, and I learned how to apply eyeshadow from Seventeen. While I still do both daily, I'm able to understand their relative positions of importance, due largely to their source.
I hate to think where my spirituality would be if I equated the two in importance, which is actually very easy to do. Vanity often trumps spirituality.
posted
Dearest Rabbit, I am not offended and the reference to Frank was to the film, Donnie Darko , which I consider to be a brilliant film. Please check it out, as it will give new meaning to your screenname.
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posted
I hate, I mean really hate, dating silent women who won't friggin' hold up their end of the conversation log. If it becomes apparent that I have to hold some woman's hand and take the initiative at every turn, thanks, but no thanks.
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quote:Among its declarations: "Revolve girls don't call guys," and "Revolve girls are not argumentative."
One entry in an advice column called Blab says, "God made guys to be the leaders. That means they lead in relationships. They tell you they like you" first, not vice versa.
Apparently, Revolve girls are expected to be Stepford girls. Maybe it's just me, but if I were a teenage girl and read this, I would run, not walk, as far away from Christianity as I possibly could. And I probably wouldn't ever look back.
"Revolve girls are not argumentative"? That's as huge a set-up I can think of for promoting female passivity, which just is asking for them to take any abuse males care to serve up. Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
That sounds like my last date, but then again, she was mute...
Ralphie,
That last post was very well said. I agree wholeheartedly, and I mean that, and I am not sucking up, really.
Posts: 1870 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: I remember as a teen thinking a guy liked me, put myself forward, and it turned out it simply hadn't occurred to him yet. While it might be seem like a great idea on the outset, tell him how you feel, so forth, it is a lot safer for the heart if you wait, give it time, give HIM time. Wouldn't you prefer your daughter go into her marriage without a gazillion scars on her heart from putting herself forward too quickly?
If I had a daughter, I'd want her to do whatever she wants as far as calling guys is concerned. If she wants to wait untill a guy calls her, fine. If she doesn't, that's fine too. I'm not going to discourage her from being who she is. As far as emotional scarring is concerned; Yeah, it would hurt to give your heart to someone and find out his feelings didn't reciprocate, but eventually those scars become far less noticable, and before you know it you can laugh about your silly schoolgirl crushes. At least I did.
Besides, it's just as hard for a guy to call a girl.
quote: I'm not sure I'm 100% on board with the God made guys to be leaders thing, but I think it's important to let guys *think* that God made them to be leaders. It makes them feel better when it turns out they're not as smart as we are.
Ummmm...are you serious, or does the evil smilie mean you're joking? I've always been against the notion that "The man is the head of the household, but the woman is the neck," and men need to think they're right all the time. It undermines their authority and position as an equal partner in the marriage, because the husband is being manipulated.
posted
I'm with sarcasticmuppet, here. I read jeniwrens post and got sorta (Read: very) pissed off. I've put my heart on the line, so many times, because its not "fashionable" For women to step forward, and I have to take a step, when the ball is obviously in her court... and yet, because of exactly what Jeniwren says, even though the ball is in her court, I'm still expected to make the play.
Screw that. If men and women are truly equal, then its gotta be ok for teenage girls to get their heart broken by asking out guys when they aren't sure the guy likes them back. Otherwise, men really ARE superior to women, and you can just throw feminism out the window, becasue not only are we WILLING to take emotional risks, we are required to, because women are too scared.
And you know what? " Women tend to think stuff to death, where a guy may only be thinking what he wants for lunch."
*Insert strong profanity here* that. Its TOTALLY FALSE! WRONG! INCORRECT! DEAD OFF! STUPID! ENFORCES STEROTYPES OF MEN AS BLUNDERING BABOONS! If you think this is true, why even bother talking to men? You'd do much better off in a convent somewhere.
" I remember as a teen thinking a guy liked me, put myself forward, and it turned out it simply hadn't occurred to him yet."
Gee, this hasn't happened to me at least a half dozen times. Of course not.
*Stalks off in a huff*
[ August 30, 2003, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Paul Goldner ]
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On the men as head of the household thing; I really want my husband to be the head of our household. I'm not advocating it for anyone else, but I hate it when the idea is universally put down; because I've thought about it alot, and come to the conclusion that it's really what I want, it isn't always a bad thing.
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posted
Paul, I'm sorry what I wrote made you angry. You have your perspective, I have mine.
It sorta torques me that people can actually get *angry* at the fact that this sort of product might be useful to someone. It borders on intellectual snobbery. It's not my thing, but if my daughter wanted it, I'd be relieved she was reading it instead of today's version of Seventeen. (Ralphie, the Seventeen of today isn't what it was when I was that age.)
And yes, sarcasticmuppet, I was joking about that part, hence the smilie.
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And its the most *f bomb* sexist thing I've ever read.
Just so you are aware.
Basically, you are saying that women are more emotionally sensitive then men, and that, not only is this ok, but we should encourage it, and if in so doing, men DO get emotionally hurt, well, they can't because they aren't emotionally sensitive anyways.
Pardon me while I go vomit. "I have my perspective." Screw that. I haven't been so angry since one of my friends made a joke about the holocaust not happening. Since the other people in the room thought I was going to rip the guy's head off... well... I hope taht gives you an idea of how little I think of your perspective.
Goddamn. Thats the attitude from women that helped along my 2 year suicidal trip.
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posted
Back to "christians" exploiting Christ for profit...
In our town we have a real estate agency, and a used car dealership whose company name, logo, and advertising refer directly to the Lord, and a minister who endorses and advertises only businesses owned by his church members on his noon gospel radio show.
There was another company called *J.T.C., a temp service that lasted about a year. Terri and Cathy, the two women who started the company ran it so poorly and caused so much contention that they got their minister fired and several of their congregation stopped attending at all. They also filed suit against several of their congregation. I happened to ask one of them about their company name...it was obvious that the T and C stood for Terri and Cathy, but who was J? a silent partner? No, that was Jesus, who definitely wasn't silent, as he had told them in a revelation to do all this.
I am not ashamed to be a Christian, but some of our brothers and sisters sure make it hard for us.
*The names have been changed to protect the wicked.
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I like Ralphie's well-rounded approach for the religious teens. Seventeen AND the bible. Not shelter from one or the other.
As for women being submissive and/or waiting for the guy, that's crap. There are differences between men and women, both physical and psychological, advantages and disadvantages, but when it comes to...well, when it comes to independence, it's about your personality. It's about who you are. If you're fiercly independent and told that it isn't the "right" way to be, that's going to make life hard in a place where it shouldn't be. There's enough rocky places in life already without making it harder.
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posted
I said nothing about male sensitivity. I simply acknowledged that men and women are generally different. Equal does not mean identical.
As for the way men think, well, obviously I can't comment from direct experience, except to say that generally my husband is not thinking about his feelings when he's banging around the kitchen. He's usually thinking about a deal at work that isn't going well or about how the Mariners' really tanked that last game. I, on the other hand, start to wonder if he's mad at me, blah blah blah. That doesn't make him a baboon any more than it makes me a weakminded doormat. It makes us human. And that's just the way we two are.
I'm sorry that you were hurt by women who were insensitive and unkind to you. I mean that genuinely. Nowhere does it say that women should blast a guy down to his shoes for saying that he likes her, when the feeling is unrequited. That is terrible! Obviously, I don't think that women are more sensitive than anyone else. It has nothing to do with balls in anyone's court. I am not trying to intimate that it's some obsure game that single girls should play to catch a husband. Geez.
To be real honest, I think that teens should leave off dating one-to-one entirely until they know themselves fairly well. Group dates are okay. But I think they shouldn't date until they've lived on their own for a while and started their careers. This is especially important for girls. Yeah, that means age 20 or more. My kids are going to hate me when they find out.
And I have absolutely no problem with being called sexist. It's incorrect, but then some people think that feminism is about being identical to men. I think it's about being uniquely female while not being denied the same opportunities enjoyed by men.
I'm sure that my outlook on things, my perspective, is identical to thinking Hitler was right. Go out and cool down, Paul. I didn't say anything that should be raising this kind of ire in you or anyone else.
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posted
I pretty much agree with jeniwren on the dating age thing. For most of my high school career, I was not mature enough for a serious relationship, and for the relatively short time that I was, most of the girls who I would otherwise have been attracted to were not. Although I do not think you should force your children to wait that long, jeni. If they really want to, they will do it behind your back, and depending on their level of maturity at fourteen or fifteen, they may do it just to rebel. IMHO, of course. Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
First, I'm not Christian, so you can ignore me if you want.
I think that it's terrible that maintaining a relationship with god and understanding the Christian faith is placed on the same level as doing one's nails or putting on suntan oil.
What I'd like to see--and something I'd actually read--is a serial magazine that discusses parts of the bible and how they relate to modern life. Possibly from a variety of viewpoints.
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posted
Wheatpuppet- I (a Christian) too think that is an excellent idea. How feasible it is, I am not sure. Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Godric is the only one who has identified themself as a Christian.
I'm not at all ashamed to call myself a follower of Christ -- but I very much do not want to be associated with many "Christians." My one friend and I have this conversation a lot. He grew up as a Christian but is now an agnostic and sometimes he can't fathom how upset I get about things like this. Although he no longer claims to be a member of the faith he would probably paint a better picture of mainstream Christianity than I.
jeniwren:
quote:It sorta torques me that people can actually get *angry* at the fact that this sort of product might be useful to someone. It borders on intellectual snobbery. It's not my thing, but if my daughter wanted it, I'd be relieved she was reading it instead of today's version of Seventeen.
I don't think my anger about this is intellectual snobbery -- however, I certainly have been guilty of that. What angers me about this, much like most mainstream Christian music, is that it comes across as a lame attempt to say, "being a Chriatian is cool," or "being a Christian makes you popular." It all seems so shallow, watered-down, direspectful to the original text and frankly, counterproductive. Can you imagine similar versions of the Torah or the Koran?
Just look at the cover. Sex sells -- the Bible...
And then there's the whole issue of money. I don't know about Thomas Nelson, but I know that at least a few other Christian publishers are owned by secular parent companies who call the shots. Now, I don't necessarily have any problem with that except --
Well, let's look at the Christian music industry. Every major mainstream Christian label is owned by a parent secular label. Most of the Christian labels started out with clear objectives. To make quality music that is both a ministry to believers and a "witness" to non-believers. Most of the labels fell more heavily on the ministry side, but there was a fairly clear emphasis on artistry. When they were bought out, however, a new objective quickly became the primary objective -- to make money.
Now, I don't think that there's anything particularly wrong with making money, but when you mix spiritual goals with money making goals and put the money making goals first -- well, you've got yourself a conflict of interests there. Now you've got Christian artists and bands who do nothing much other than imitate whatever happens to be the hot sound in the mainstream markets. You've got bands who aren't even Christians playing Christian music just so they can get their foot in the door because it's "easier" to break in as a Christian group. You've got lyrics that seem to say, "love Jesus and life will be a dreamy vacation." I don't exactly get that picture when I read the Psalms.
I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Christian group dcTalk. They are one of the most successful Christian groups in the last decade, and while I personally find them a bit trite, I couldn't believe what I heard from one of my old youth pastors about them. They have a song entitled "What if I Stumble?" -- pretty straightforward song about making mistakes but picking yourself back up and moving on -- that he refused to play and encouraged us not to listen to. "Christians shouldn't stumble," was what he said. I'm sorry, but if I'm being an intellectual snob by saying that's bullshit, I'll gladly be a snob.
Dead Horse:
quote:Back to "christians" exploiting Christ for profit...
Heh... I'm reminded of a song by Steve Taylor.
So you need a new car? let your fingers take a walk through the business guide for the "born again" flock you'll be keeping all your money in the kingdom now and you'll only drink milk from a Christian cow don't you go casting your bread to keep the heathen well-fed line Christian pockets instead--avoid temptation
guilty by association
...
mackillian:
quote:I like Ralphie's well-rounded approach for the religious teens. Seventeen AND the bible. Not shelter from one or the other.
WheatPuppet:
quote:I think that it's terrible that maintaining a relationship with god and understanding the Christian faith is placed on the same level as doing one's nails or putting on suntan oil.
What I'd like to see--and something I'd actually read--is a serial magazine that discusses parts of the bible and how they relate to modern life. Possibly from a variety of viewpoints.
posted
Danzig, I'm not really into the "force your kids to submit" style of parenting. I like to give choices and discuss consequences, then deal out those consequences if it becomes necessary in as loving and sympathetic way possible. I don't know how I'll be with my son when he gets to be that age...he's only 10 right now. I like to think that I'd be calm and advisory rather than hysterical and overprotective, but until I get there, it's too hard to tell.
Godric, I don't object because I think it could appeal to a segment of young girls in Christian homes, and because it contains actual scripture rather than watered down interpretation. At least, that's the way I read that article. I'm looking forward to seeing the actual product, because I can think of one girl I think would really like it. But not having seen it, I can't guess if it really is all that good. Ultimately, parents need to review the material and make sure it's in line with what they want their kids to read.
I can't remember what other books I have from Thomas Nelson Press, but I have a general sense of respect for them, where I don't for some other "Christian" publishers. I'll have a look at my bookshelf a little later and see if I can find some titles.
My view on Christian products is that if it helps a person grow stronger in their relationship with God, or if it encourages them to delve into the scripture and learn, and if the product is not directly contradictory to scripture, then I don't have an objection. I detest the WWJD bracelets, but if it helps a kid remember to be gentle where he would have bullied, then it was worth the $1.50 some secular merchandiser gained in profit.
As for that youth leader who didn't think that Christians should stumble...I think he needs to go back to scripture. We will stumble, we are stumbling, otherwise there is no need for Jesus.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Thomas Nelson is firmly a Southern Baptist publisher. I happen to work in one of the SBC's bookstores ("LifeWay Christian Stores"), and am often ashamed of some of the merchandise that comes in there. But aside from the crap, there's also some great stuff - us employees have a lot of fun hiding stupid merchandise (like that shipment of lip gloss that had printed "His Praise will Always be on my lips" on the container just to justify it being sold in Christian Stores). And don't even get me started on BibleMan... but hey. We do get to watch all the new VeggieTales as they come in, so it does have its perks
Jeni: I have seen the product (first day it appeared on the shelves I looked at it to see what the heck it was) and the inside layout looks a LOT like your standard magazine - sidebars and popups everywhere - but where the text of the article would be is the text of the New Century Version translation of the New Testament. If it hadn't been sitting in our 'other translations' section in the shop, I would have never have picked it up and known it was a NT.
My thoughts are twofold:
A) If it gets someone to read it who wouldn't have otherwise, then good for it.
B) If the idea is for girls to read the Bible in public without being ashamed, then, well, why promote being ashamed of carrying a recognizable copy of God's Word?
-Dave
(Who is a Christian, but isn't Southern Baptist, BTW)
quote:"Revolve girls are not argumentative"? That's as huge a set-up I can think of for promoting female passivity, which just is asking for them to take any abuse males care to serve up.
Depends on how practical you think arguing is, I guess. Being 'argumentative,' IMO, is not a trait I want ANY child to be encouraged to have, girl or boy.
The magazine seems to me to be a little hokey, a little fluffy. . . but other than the 'Boys are the Leaders' bit, I see no real harm in it.
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I completely agree with Ralphie. The death of religion will NOT be by making it different from everything else - it will be by making it exactly like everything else. If you get the same thing at church as you get in Vogue or the Bravo channel, it is irrevelavent. The whole idea of this magazine is pathetic, but so many things are.
I don't like most church books anyway... the only way to get familiar with the scriptures is to READ THE SCRIPTURES! This is like Cliff Notes for Shakespeare - doesn't anyone actually think Cliff Notes can make someone a Shakespeare scholar?
As for girl magazines....
Seventeen bites now - I'm embarassed to even read it. If you are looking for a nice girl magazine for daughter (or young self inside), try YM. I love it - human-sized models, good boy advice, addresses questions, lots of makeup. From reading it, the editors are people I would be willing to hang out with in real life, except they know more about fashion than I do. I really like it.
Example: There was a story last month about "Why Doesn't The Boy I Like Like Me?" They went through reasons - he's not mature enough yet, he's thinking about other things (school, sports, video games), he doesn't know you like him, he likes someone else, he's extremely shy and is waiting for you to indicate someothing. And if none of the above apply - he's just stupid and don't worry about it. It was great.
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I can't think of anything less Christian than trying to make a buck by hanging on JCs coattails. ![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
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Hobbes.
