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Author Topic: faux pas
MacBeth
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Sorry about that Tom...but one of the freedoms of the BBS is to be able to say who you are what you have done and what you believe...without fear of local reprecussions.Then again with the anti-Terror laws in effect maybe the SWAT team is on their way already. I truely don't mean to offend anyone here.
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Danzig
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18 is when I started. 17 if you count alcohol, but I only drank two or three times then. I sort of wish I had smoked pot earlier, but not really, and I do not regret at all waiting for anything else. And if you do not want to use, that is fine with me, as long as you let those who enjoy it do so.
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Erik Slaine
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Watch out Danzig! I don't like the looks of that Ralphie! She's a bust!
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TomDavidson
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I'm not one of those guys who believes that drug use is a victimless crime, Danzig. [Smile] I've known too many potheads and dated too many crack whores to buy that one.

You guys want to wallow in freakish denial, go ahead. But don't expect EVERYBODY to smile and nod. *grin*

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Danzig
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It has (or should have) one victim, and while it is a legal crime for some drugs, it is not a moral one. Crack whores are one thing, but what is it to you if someone would like to smoke pot and not "go somewhere". That is only talking about the pothead stereotype as well; pot especially is around a lot more than you might think. As for crack whores, maybe they would not have to be crack whores if it was cheap and legal.

Also, this speech is still protected, as long as we are not actually conspiring to break the law.

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Maethoriell
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I'm a teen and I dont really get where you can get those things. If I was never told about them and was warned not to do it, I would've never known. Odd.
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MacBeth
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[ROFL] A guy who dates "Crack Whores" knows they are crack whores and still continues to date them is preaching about drug use [ROFL] I love it!
Ahem with all due Respect Tom

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Danzig
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Once I actually understood the concept of drugs, the propaganda they fed us made me want to try most of them.
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MacBeth
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I was pretty content with shrooms acid and pot...although I'm not a fan of his I understand eminem has voiced similar preferences.
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Ralphie
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quote:
Watch out Danzig! I don't like the looks of that Ralphie! She's a bust!
[Razz]

Am I the only one dumbfounded by the "taking drugs should only ever have one victim" argument?

Has anyone EVER known of A SINGLE user that only affected himself with his drug abuse? That ONLY made himself into a victim with it?

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Danzig
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Oh please. Leaving out those who are victims solely because of the illegal nature of most enjoyable psychoactive drugs, that is still an invalid argument. It is not the obligation of the user to make everyone who cares for them happy. I am very saddened that pretty girls, who may even be my friends, do not immediately ask me to spend the night, but that hardly qualifies me as a "victim".

If you want to appeal to emotions, how about those poor souls currently being raped in prison because they dared to smoke a joint? Or how about an actual measurable effect, such as the collateral damage of Alberta Spruill? What of Pedro Oregon Navarro?

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Ryuko
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So you're saying that the family of people who are so completely gone on say... crack... aren't victims?

Sure, mishandling of the law is to blame in those instances, but does that give anyone the right to hurt their families just for personal enjoyment? Not even mentioning the impact on their bodies or health at all.

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Danzig
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As far as your health goes, that is your choice. (Hence the one victim.) Go for it, but do not come crying to the government (or anyone else) if you destroy your body.

Do you mean spouses and dependents, or all family members? I hate to make my mother sad, but she does not depend on me for anything and I feel little guilt if she thinks it is wrong for me to drink. I owe her a lot, but I do not owe her everything. My father drinks a couple of beers fairly often, and last holiday season he was a little bit tipsy. Do I have the right to call myself a victim?

I do realize that some people let drugs totally take over their lives, to the point of neglecting responsibilities. That is why I said there "should be" only one victim. But drinking a beer, smoking a joint, or even hitting the crack pipe for to relax after work does not give me any sympathy for a family member who just cannot stand to let someone live their own life.

But wait, maybe I am just a horrible no good addict who is completely wrong, and I do owe it to anyone who cares for me (why limit it to family) to do whatever they say! Do you honestly think that making drugs illegal is the best way to do this? They are still here. They will not go away. Even if I am a despicable, worthless human being - scratch that, an addict - because I dared to smoke a bowl a few times, why make me unwilling to get treatment? As someone who was well on the path (if not already at the end) to a psychological addiction, I can tell you that I did feel that the costs of treatment were not worth the benefits. And I was using a drug that was legal to possess, which I would imagine makes it an easier task to seek treatment. I cannot imagine even considering going for treatment if I had even a psychological addiction to an illegal drug, much less a physiological addiction. If people really cared about any victims, perceived or actual, they would legalize all drugs.

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TomDavidson
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"A guy who dates 'Crack Whores' knows they are crack whores and still continues to date them is preaching about drug use...."

Yes. Would you rather that a guy with no experience whatsoever with crack OR crack whores preach about drug use?

There are, of course, distinctions to be made between psychologically addictive drugs -- like pot and EverQuest -- and physiologically addictive ones, like cocaine or heroin. The danger, though, in EITHER case, lies in the addiction; that the drugs also happen to be generally illegal doesn't help, mind you, since the social effects of illegalization encourage a withdrawal from mainstream society and a disrespect for authority that only reinforce the addiction itself, but it's also the case that merely BEING addicted is itself harmful.

Danzig would argue that the harm here is only to the addict. In reality -- and leaving aside the thefts, deceits, and casual cruelties that are part and parcel of the drug user's experience -- that's like arguing that suicide only harms the person who dies.

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saxon75
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quote:
There are, of course, distinctions to be made between psychologically addictive drugs -- like pot and EverQuest -- and physiologically addictive ones, like cocaine or heroin. The danger, though, in EITHER case, lies in the addiction; that the drugs also happen to be generally illegal doesn't help, mind you, since the social effects of illegalization encourage a withdrawal from mainstream society and a disrespect for authority that only reinforce the addiction itself, but it's also the case that merely BEING addicted is itself harmful.
*cough*11,997*cough*

[ September 17, 2003, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: saxon75 ]

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Farmgirl
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MacBeth
You seem to be focusing on the "good" ways you felt when you did drugs, and are totally forgetting the "bad." Do you remember how it felt to come off the drug? Do you remember how others around you felt about it? Do you rememer why it was you quit to begin with?

Looking back is always so nostalgic -- and we tend to forget the bad and remember the good, and that sometimes makes us lose our perspective....

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TomDavidson
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In your face, space coyote. [Razz]
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Farmgirl
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TomD! What an uneventful post for your 12,000th!
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Danzig
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Okay, if you compare it to suicide you obviously are unwilling to change your mind on that, and I doubt I will be able to. Fine. For the sake of this argument, addiction can be harmful. Not everyone who tries a drug becomes an addict, however, and like it or not, not every "addict" (I doubt we will agree on the definition, so the word is in quotes) harms others. Are you arguing that those addicts who do are enough to make it worth being illegal? Making it illegal exacerbates the problem, and creates new problems.
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katharina
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quote:
I have never, not once in my life, ever been offered drugs of any kind.
The only I ever have been has been at seedy concerts that I attended out of sheer hero-worship for my gothicy, adorable best friend. Shocked the heck out of me.

Danzig, you're talking nonsense.

[ September 17, 2003, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]

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Danzig
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Nonsense in saying that they are around, or nonsense in saying they should be legalized? Or both?

The easy availability might be a regional thing.

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TomDavidson
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"Are you arguing that those addicts who do are enough to make it worth being illegal?"

Actually, you haven't seen me make any arguments about the legalization of drugs here, precisely because I think they SHOULD be legalized -- primarily for the reasons we've already touched lightly on. However, I also think decent human beings should shun, ostracize, mock, and belittle even casual drug users for fun and profit.

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Danzig
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Oh, sorry, I must admit that I jumped to a conclusion there. In my experience, most people who make your assertions are arguing for drugs to stay illegal. Still, that is not really an excuse.

I disagree with you, but as long as you think legalization is good you are free to mock me. Even if you do drink a brandy now and then.

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saxon75
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You know, I was going to just stick to fluffy posts in this thread and not get all huffy, but I don't seem to be able to avoid it.

If you think that drug use does not routinely harm people other than the users themselves, then I respectfully submit that you are blinding yourself to reality in order to support your agenda.

However, if you think that recreational drug use cannot occur without harming other people, I respectfully submit that you are just as blind as the people you are arguing against.

Yeah, I've done drugs. I don't anymore. As far as I've been able to determine, I've never victimized anyone by my drug use. I admit that my drug use may have affected people in ways that I can't see, but at the very least I don't think I've harmed anyone directly. I don't steal, I almost never lie, and I do everything I can to avoid being cruel to others. This was as true during the time that I used drugs as it is now. Furthermore, very few of the drug users I know are or were cruel, deceitful or thieves, though I would be lying if I said none were.

I don't think using drugs is a smart idea. I also don't think making sweeping and offensive general statements is a smart idea. But what do I know? I'm just a stupid, cruel, deceitful thief.

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TomDavidson
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"very few of the drug users I know are or were cruel, deceitful or thieves"

I'd like to say that it breaks my heart to know that there are exceptions to the rule, but it really doesn't. Glad you dodged that bullet.

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Danzig
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I know it harms people, especially the lower you go on the income spectrum. I just take issue with much of the same things you did. Yes, there were lots of potheads in my high school who were going no where fast. On the other hand, many of the smartest, most destined for success students used as well. It is easy to point at those who fail and say that can happen, but it is harder to not change that "can" into a "will". Honestly, I think crack will usually put you onto a path you do not want to be on. But not every person who uses drugs will use crack.

I know this will really draw out condescending, pseudo-pitying statements, but it must be said. I am a much nicer person when I am stoned. I really am. Oh, I can act nicely no matter if I am using or not, if it matters. But when I am stoned, it comes from the heart. Perhaps that makes me less of a person. Were pot legal, I would choose to be nice and lesser rather than greater and corrupt.

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Bob the Lawyer
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Sweet jebus, I don't know about people who do acid. I mean, better hope you don't lose any weight in the future, kids. Unless you're down with flashbacks and all.
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MacBeth
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One of the points that were made in this thread that not everyone who uses is addicted. I was never addicted to pot...I was never addicted to shrooms and I was never addicted to acid. The word recreational seems to fit. And to the Farmgirl...coming "down" off of pot? Uhhh you pretty much act normal coming"down" from shrooms? like slipping back INTO reality...same deal with acid. I never once did anything like crack and I feel the only reason it has been brought up in this thread is because of its NAKED danger both to addiction death and the ability to make TMI kids look like geniuses. I met my wife thanks to the excessive drug use going on at the bachelor pad I lived at. Not any of the crazy going to kill you drugs like Heroine Crack Cocaine Ketamine X-stacy or any such pill nonesense.
By and large we were Potheads. Sure there were the alcoholics among us. Like my buddy rich who would routinely get so drunk that he would ask people to just kill him. Never once have Iseen someone on pot or acid or shrooms show such intended personal disregard for themselves.
You talk about watching someone who needs help because they are hurting the people around them...look to the legal drug of alcohol and leave the grass smokers be.

There is no truth that can be told so as to be understood and not believed. -OSC

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TomDavidson
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"I met my wife thanks to the excessive drug use going on at the bachelor pad I lived at."

Well, I suppose that's ONE way to do it.

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MacBeth
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Much better then going to a CRACKHOUSE WHORE!
One thing to the un initiated of drug use to understand is that potheads are some of the most forgiving non-judgemental folks around. Its not "normal" to be into swordfighting its not "normal"
to be 175 lbs and grappling and beating guys twice your size. I was never a "normal" kind of guy and I hated mainstream goodie goodie "normal" people. She was and is right for me. We have both given up that lifestyle...but if I hadn't beem engaged in that kind of situation I would NOT have met her. Would NOT have had our daughter Jazmyn. Would NOT have another due in February. And in all likelihood I would not be HERE at ALL!
Laugh if you want but fate does have a skewed sense of humor...I suppose thats why a straight arrow like yourself kept finding yourself in the company of crackwhores huh?

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saxon75
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See, this is exactly the reason I was going to stay out of this argument. Why do so many pro-drug people feel the need to degenerate their arguments into ad hominem ridiculousness?
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Farmgirl
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MacBeth,
My post was in reponse to your ORIGINAL post, and in that post you didn't clarify that you were only talking about Pot. Otherwise I would not have made the comment about "coming down."

I plead guilty to using pot when I was much much younger for a short time. It is different than other harder drugs.

But my point remains the same -- since you are having "fond memories" of pot, you also need to ask yourself why you decided to no longer do drugs, and if those reasons still are true, then they will also be the reasons you decide to not return to drugs.

Farmgirl (who is not being judgemental at all -- I'm a been there, done that).

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TomDavidson
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"Much better then going to a CRACKHOUSE WHORE!"

I wholeheartedly agree. Which is why, when I married, I did not marry the crack whore. [Smile]

As a side note, the girl in question did not start out as a crack whore, somehow unworthy of love or respect. *rolls eyes* She was, when I first met her, merely a pothead and occasional LSD user; she was heavily into psychedelic drugs by the time we started dating, but it was my hope that this was just a "phase" she was going through as a way of avoiding a very nasty family situation.

However, like the vast majority of druggies I have known -- and contrary to my hopes -- she wound up spiralling rapidly downward, and her introduction to harder drugs basically sealed the deal. I'm glad you and your friends managed to avoid this, believe me, but you're not representative of my anecdotal experience.

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Danzig
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At the risk of sounding trite, the plural of anecdote is not data.
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Danzig
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That said, crack is notorious for quickly bringing down people who have been happily using other drugs for years- up to and including heroin.
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UofUlawguy
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In connection with this whole topic, I highly recommend Phillip K. Dick's A Scanner Darkly. It is very, very loosely autobiographical in that Dick was really into the 60's drug culture in Berkeley, Cal. The book is dedicated to all his dead or damaged friends.

If I hadn't already decided against ever trying drugs, this book would have decided me.

UofUlawguy

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MacBeth
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As an attorney (you not I) I understand that you would have a prediliction to upholding any law that happened to be passed...however upon quickly scanning your post my wife replied to me that she would kick you in the face if she ever met you in person. The idea that you have dedicated your life to sheltering yourself from the world...frankly makes my head spin. there is the old adage don't knock it till you try it. though I admit there are a number of things I haven't had to do to know that I do not want to do them.
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Danzig
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Uhh... I do not think that is exactly what he said MacBeth.
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UofUlawguy
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Mr. MacBeth,

1. I did not say anything to or about either you or your wife.

2. I said nothing about anybody's choice to use drugs except for my own.

3. I simply gave a recommendation of a book about drug users. The book itself isn't even judgmental. Dick makes clear that he doesn't think there is anything morally wrong with taking drugs. He definitely criticizes drug enforcement laws/agencies/programs. His only really vicious condemnation is of those that produce dangerous drugs or push drugs on others, knowing the damage they can do.

4. I don't think we've even met. So, I'll let your rather bewildering comment roll off me and say, "How do you do? Pleased to meet you."

UofUlawguy

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UofUlawguy
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As for the lawyer angle, I'll share an interesting happening from law school. (keep in mind I only graduated three years ago)

In my Criminal Law class, our ancient professor addressed the chapter on drug laws by having us divide up into pro- and anti-legalization camps, with the five undecideds as judges. The two sides had an entire class period to convince the judges of their position. Two surprising (or maybe not) results:

More people signed up for the pro-legalization side than the anti-.

Four of the five judges ruled in favor of the pro-legalization position.

I was the lone dissenting judge. Okay, I'm a square.

UofUlawguy

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Farmgirl
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MacBeth seems to be going a little paranoid or bi-polar on us here...... maybe he's already *using* as he writes. Touchy!

(preparing for his flame...)
Farmgirl

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pooka
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I know that pot is so non addictive that my first boyfriend decided to dump me rather than give it up. Which of us is the jerk? I don't know. Though the fact that he thinks he dumped me and not the other way around shows that we were in different realities. He was also into acid and shrooms. I never found out much about it, though I did try an alcohol drink once.

I think my favorite part was when he came back from his first year at college and confessed to me that he had been doing drugs all year when he had lied to me and said he was merely drinking. (emasculates mental voodoo poppet)

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Chade Fallstar
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I'm just guessing here, I haven't been on this board for that long of a time, but I think I probably have more perspective on the whole drug use issue and who it hurts than 99% of you. If you want me to explain my life story and where drugs have left me and my friends and family and the general neighborhood where I am living, then you can talk to me online, or ask Ralphie about it. I think she will confirm that I may know what I'm talking about.

That being said, drugs are incredibly destructive, and not just to the people who use them. They are destructive to entire neighborhoods, they change the way you think and feel, they destroy families and relationships, and most importantly they destroy the individuals who take them.

I understand your argument that it is not your responsibility to keep people happy and if others choose to not respect your choice to engage in an illegal activity that is their problem. I've been in that stage too. Most of the people I come into contact with are in that stage as we speak. It just isn't true though. Look at it this way, this will offend you but it's what I have to say, if you are using drugs you are most likely a fairly selfish and self-involved person as it is. So you probably don't have a full scope of who's problem it is anyway.

I'm knocking it and I've tried it. I've been to the bottom of the barrel. I've engaged in drug use at every level that is possible. I've watched people's lives destroyed and I've seen the pain it causes to those outside the user who you feel shouldn't be affected.

I'll tell you this, if you feel that a drug that is illegal shouldn't be illegal, then that is fine. Get out and work to make it legal. That's the way the system works. If you don't like the propaganda you have been shown, make you own propaganda to throw right back at it. There are plenty of organizations around that you can get involved with to change the laws. However, and this is a big however, until such time as your organization is succesful in changing those laws, it is illegal to do that drug. So when you are arrested for it, no matter how injust it may seem to you, it is still justice. You broke a law, you deal with the consequences.

Once a new law is passed to make it legal for you to smoke or shoot up or whatever it is that's you thing, then go right ahead and do it all you want. It will still have all the negative consequences it had before, but you won't be doing jail time for it if you get caught.

Until that time, lay off. I know you won't, I'm being entirely to preachy to actually get my point across to any of you. But I do know what I'm talking about. Drugs aren't the answer to anything. They've ruined uncounted lives just down the street from me, and thousands and thousands more across the country. Don't let you fool yourself, regardless of who you think you are hurting, you are affecting everyone around you. There are consequences to that and they are your fault, not someone else's for being intolerant of your illegal behavior. Take drugs if you wish, I can't stop you, but take responsibility for the consequences of that action too. Don't blame everyone else for your problem.

::steps off soap box and promises to never make a serious post again::

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MacBeth
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No flames Farmgilrl [Big Grin]
serious.
UofUlawguy: I simply passed on the message that my wife told me when she read the comment. Of course she does have a habit of saying the first thing that comes to her mind. I have heard stories of folks goin wacky from acid...part of the reason I was more into shrooms. I gave up drugs as part of being a liscenced RDA. There are certain images that one must uphold. However the fact that I am still not hired anywhere as an RDA made me rethink my stance a little. However I have other reasons for not using that have not been mentioned yet. Such as Cost. Availability...stay out of the game long enough and you lose contacts.
And the much more popular answer Responsibility to myself and my family.

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Danzig
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Why should I not complain about unfair laws? That is one way they get changed. An unjust law is an unjust law, and if I am prosecuted under that law I am the victim of an injustice. Drug users are where racial minorities were and homosexuals are just coming out of.
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MacBeth
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All things in moderation. One can drink Alcohol and not be a gutter lying drunk. One can smoke a joint every month or two and not bring his family to a screeching halt. One can enjoy the benefits of shroom use...lets say on the 4th of July without it having to become part of his daily routine. True some people do not know their limits. Or for that matter place limits at all. But there are those who do use things such as that in a responsible manner. I feel that most of the CON posters have a habit of posting as to the negativity of the EXTREME response. Which is not indicated in any of my previous postings.
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Chade Fallstar
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I never said not to complain, in fact I believe I encouraged you to go join a group to get the law changed.
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Chade Fallstar
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As to your post about only reflecting to extreme ends of things, I mentioned that I have been through or been close to someone who has been through every level of drug use that is possible. While using drugs only occassionaly does not cause as many or as extreme a problem as daily use, it still causes problems.
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MacBeth
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Only if you get caught! [Evil Laugh]
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Chade Fallstar
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Actually no, I wasn't referring to jail time either.
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