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Author Topic: This guy is one of the reasons I get panic attacks when I try to go to church
Olivet
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I couldn't believe it when I saw in the paper today. Then I realized, what goes around really does come around. Nobody can keep up a facade forever.

And it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

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WheatPuppet
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I have no idea how the guy remained a pastor for that long! Talk about a desparity between actions and beliefs.
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jeniwren
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I'm wondering about church officials who would sign a document promising $9,000 a month severence for *2 YEARS*. What were they thinking?
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dan_parrot
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Arrgh, my dear sweet mum-in-law has dropped anchor in that there Port of Gwinnette. Why she works next to that courtroom where the scurvy dog be held.
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Olivet
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I knew this guy. He spoke at a Christian summer camp I went to, a couple years running. I was a counsellor there during summers in college, but they stopped inviting him back.

He was pastor of a really wealthy church one town over from where I grew up. I went there sometimes with friends when I was in high school. The pastor of the church I went to back then took over the church he left when he moved to Georgia. Word was that the church he had been asked to [astor there was really prosperous. I figured he went for the money, because by then I had my own reasons for not trusting the guy. Call it a gut feeling.

He was slimy, and everyone seemed to love him. At camp he was treated like some sort of rock star. *shudder*

It's a profoundly disturbing experience to see someone you used to have water gun fights with on the front page of the metro section, wearing an eye patch. [Eek!]

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Erik Blackheart
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quote:
Marty Tingelhoff, who wore an eye patch due to a recent scuffle with police, sued the church he once pastored in Gwinnett for more than $166,000. He was asked to resign after allegations that he was drinking, gambling and possibly addicted to sex, court documents show.


Sounds like an excellent pastor to have on "Talk like a Pirate Day", lass!
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MaydayDesiax
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::laughs:: My first though exactally, Erik.
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Foust
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Wow, this guy sounds like he had a great time at that church.
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Olivet
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You guys don't understand me. This hits very close to home for me.

Marty had a huge church very near me. His church had the first contemporary Christian radio station in the area, after years of seminars and stuff on Rock, soul and Country music (He was really equall opportunity that way).

I didn't listen to secular music for a big chunk of my teenage years, largely because of this man's ministry. He was really close with the pastor at my church (where I also attended Christian school-- actually, I attended the school first, then started going to church there).

I can't tell you how many concerts I went to at that church. How kind and loving and accepting the youth group was. I even went to their New Year's Eve celebration one year. This was a church that not only believed dancing and stuff wasn't a sin, they had a dance group. And an orchestra. Even an Art Ministry. I felt that it was okay to be me, to be artistic or whatever, and still be a Christian.

At Sunday services there, some people dressed up, and some people came in t-shirts and shorts. And they all treated each other with respect.

It was really special. There were things I learned from this man's seminars that, despite me feeling that maybe he wasn't sincere at the time, I still believe to be basic truths.

When he left Abundant Living (that's the name of the church in TN) and our church's pastor took it over, it came to light that it was in debt over a million dollars. They limped along for a while before it all had to be sold.

The pastor of my church who had taken over went back into Optometry.

I should find it satisfying that my guts were right about this guy from the start, but I don't. Part of me still wants to believe that SOME of that was real... the love the people had for each other... the acceptance. It was so cool to be artsy and not be considered a sinner just because of your hairstyle or whatever.

I know Marty was crushed when they couldn't keep the radio station afloat. I suppose it served his ego as much as it did a higher purpose.

But , Damn it, I WANTED to believe. I DID believe. This is just another pin of experience through the butterfly that once was my faith. There it is, up on the corkboard, mocking me. Saying, "Fool, Fool."

How could I ever have been so innocent that I could believe in any structure that depends on people?

If there is a God, I just don't see how any form of organized religion can have anything to do with it. Or vice versa.

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Wendybird
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Forgive me Olivet if I step on your toes. Faith in God should never be dependent on human beings. Now I'm not saying organized religion is bad. It does serve a purpose of being able to worship with like minded individuals. However if your relationship with God goes no further than those you associate with things like this can rattle and destroy faith. I'm sure God is grieved that one of his sons has sinned and caused many people to perhaps fall astray. Mourn your loss but remember that God gave us free agency. He mourns for sin as well but has to let us make our choices or he would cease to be God. The love and spirit you felt was real. The messenger may have screwed up but the message is still real.

Love Wendy

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Olivet
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No.

Whatever I believed about God, I still believe on some level, I guess.

But those churches he built were built around a cult of personality. It was doomed from the beginning.

On some level, I knew this. Even before the first churchy bastard grabbed my ass, I knew.

What I WANTED to be true, and wasn't, was the community. It wasn't real. Everyone was just trying to suck up to this guy. He sold a lot of tapes, was paid a lot for seminars, and the older, wiser members of the congregation wanted a piece of the pie.

I'm actually GLAD I will never participate in a record-burning again, or dish out food at a fundraiser for some outreach that will only crumble at best, or end up as a rolex on some bastard's wrist.

I'm relieved that I won't waste any more of my life as some faithful sheep.

Part of misses it though, like a druggie misses smack. The freedom from thought and responsibility! It is a heady thing... and though I eventually sickened of it, the warmth and security is like a memory of the womb.

It's a hard choice, to think for yourself. I miss the not having to think, just a bit. I miss the belief that I was right and good because I did what people told me to do.

Religion is a ship of fools. Religious individuals are mostly okay, but stick 'em together, and I get hives.

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Portia
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I was a member of the late River of Life Family church. I would go almost every time the door was open with my Bible open along with my notebook. The same man that we saw with the disgrace of his life all over the news is the same man who taught me to be as a Berian of old. Challenge what I have learned. Seek multiple sources. Don't believe it just because someone said so, but seek the truth for myself. It is from his teachings that I read as much as I do now. It is from his teachings that my faith in God has grown.

We were all extremely shocked and hurt when "his" truth came to light. There are those so hurt that "the church" will never be the same to them. We need to be able to put our trust in one another but human nature continues to bite us in the behind.

It almost seems that the harder a person takes a stand on something...doesn't matter what, there are elements that will cause them to fall. It's like the color purple. I love the color. It goes with everything. But try to find it in a shirt...ha! And now I hear from my children that this is a "gay" color. How the heck did this happen. Who starts this kind of stuff in the first place.

So MTingelhoff goes and takes a stand against gambling and drinking and rock and roll music. He teaches his church members to steer clear. He teaches us to learn to learn. My gosh look what happened to him. He lost his faith, his family and his community. But for the grace of God.....

There I go continuing on the path that he set before me. I to seek out the truth. I learn that I have so much to learn. I still have a hole in my heart but I pray that he finds his way home.

So when you read about someone like MTingelhoff wonder how he got there. Wonder how is going to get back

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babager
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I was once a member of a church that was built on man (but then most churches are). When the pastor that founded the church left the church could not stand. I joined shortly after the original pastor left. When I joined the church there was a sense of urgency because attendence was getting down near the 1000 person mark. When I finally left the church with the last split (there were 5 total) the church split into 2 groups of about 15. I left the group that split off when I realized that they were as kooky as the other group. I still have issues with events of those few years and havn't joined a church since (the last split occurred about 7 yrs ago).

One of my favorite "church songs" from that period has a line that goes:

'I have leaned on the wisdom of men, oh Lord forgive me
and I have responded to them, instead of your grace and your Mercy
but now oh Lord I see my wrong
heal my heart and show yourself stong
be magnified- oh Lord be magnified'

I am wiser because of my experience, but at what cost? [Frown]

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TMedina
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I was wondering what this story had to do with a panic attack in church, but I think I understand now.

The message was good, even if the messenger wasn't.

I can relate to being disillusioned - how what should be a near-perfect experience turns into something...base and mundane and so very human.

I'm not Catholic and have even been accused of being rabidly anti-Catholic, but when I went to the Vatican last year, I expected...something.

What I got was the jaded indifference of employees working at Walt Disney and not could arguably be the singular focus of Christianity in Europe and Catholicism in the world. I kept waiting for some poor bastard to pop around the corner, sweating in a giant rat outfit.

I don't know if my understanding actually helps, but don't fault the inherent goodness of the message for the inherent failings of the messenger.

-Trevor

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raventh1
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Olivet: I personally have had some problems with 'religion' as a whole. You can always find some good in people, If I could talk to you in person about this, I'd be able to explain what I mean much better than here.

PS: I can't get to the link, it wants me to sign in.

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TMedina
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Posted without permission:
quote:

Prodigal pastor loses flock, case

By BETH WARREN
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution


• Gwinnett community page


The case of the wayward pastor with an eye patch became so bizarre before it ended Thursday that it drew spectators and extra security.

Marty Tingelhoff, who wore an eye patch due to a recent scuffle with police, sued the church he once pastored in Gwinnett for more than $166,000. He was asked to resign after allegations that he was drinking, gambling and possibly addicted to sex, court documents show.

Tingelhoff agreed to leave the 300-member River of Life Church in December 2001 after a decade there. He wanted a hefty severance package, but the church stopped payments -- prompting his civil lawsuit.

The allegations and Tingelhoff's behavior in and out of the courtroom were so unusual that some court officials who had nothing to do with the case came to watch the drama unfold. Deputies, who weren't sure what might happen next, sent for reinforcements.

Tingelhoff, who had been a pastor in Tennessee, came to River of Life in 1991. He was charismatic, and the church seemed to flourish -- until 2000, when a church member said she had found him passed out drunk at the church, according to court testimony.

Congregants were full of forgiveness and wanted to help their fallen pastor until they realized a year later that the problems ran much deeper, said the church's Gainesville attorney, Tom Cole. Those problems, they believed, may have included addiction to sex, gambling, alcohol and drugs, according to court documents.

Church officials finally asked Tingelhoff to leave and signed an agreement to pay him $9,000 a month for two years, along with up to $7,350 for his rehabilitation, according to testimony.

But members didn't know he had left the church with about $4 million in debt, the current pastor, Phillip Carter, said. The church accuses Tingelhoff of charging personal goods and services to the church and "causing the church to lose valued members" due to his "grossly obnoxious conduct."

The interdenominational congregation had opened a second church in Buford, hoping to save more souls. But it had to sell one church, the original property in Lilburn, to avoid losing both to creditors, Carter said.

The church halted payments to Tingelhoff a month after he left, so the former pastor filed suit last year alleging breach of contract.

He claimed he upheld his end of the bargain -- leaving the church and going to rehab.

The church alleged he didn't follow through with all of the treatment and fell back into substance abuse.

Tingelhoff was arrested on DUI charges two weeks ago in Cobb County, where he now lives. Marietta Officer Mark Bishop testified Thursday that Tingelhoff claimed to be a Navy Seal and faked a heart attack before threatening him and emergency medical technicians who were trying to check on him. That netted him felony charges of making terroristic threats, which are still pending in Cobb County, according to the police officer.

Tingelhoff's behavior was erratic throughout the weeklong trial. At times he would disappear from the courtroom, argue with his attorney, and pepper sheriff's deputies with questions -- including how to take out a warrant against the officer who testified against him.

Tingelhoff opted to testify but was scolded by the judge when he refused to stop rambling to the jury about the unrelated pending criminal charges in Marietta.

"Be quiet," acting Gwinnett State Court Judge Valeria Head sternly told him, but he continued. "That is enough," the judge said. "You may come down" from the witness stand.

At another point, Tingelhoff plopped down in his chair at the defense table and rebuffed his Atlanta attorney, Alan Manheim.

"Don't misrepresent what I said," Tingelhoff scoffed to his retained attorney. "Tell the truth."

His attorney conceded to the jury that Tingelhoff was "sick" but said the contract should stand.

The jury deliberated for about an hour and a half. Five of the 12 initially sided with the former pastor, believing "that a contract is a contract," jury forewoman Cathy Blankenship said.

"But there was deceit" by Tingelhoff in failing to tell church officials about the church's debt, she said. "We just don't think it was upfront and honest."

So the pastor lost his flock and his case.

-Trevor
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Icarus
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quote:
What I got was the jaded indifference of employees working at Walt Disney . . .
Um, have you ever been to Disney World??

-o-

raventh1, try this:

User Name: ajc
e-mail addy: ajcsucks@ajc.com
password: ajcsucks

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Icarus
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Never mind.
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TMedina
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Actually, yes - I have.

Hence my using the comparison.

-Trevor

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raventh1
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Well, Not knowing the man personally I'm not going to say anything really about him, but generally speaking people aren't perfect, and they make mistakes. People making mistakes however doesn't remove all the things they did that were good from before, or after they make mistakes.

My advice to you is to look at everything you question, and see how you feel about it, not anyone else, but you. Take things from there.

This is hard advice to follow, I still have a hard time following this advice.

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Icarus
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Trevor, very strange. Jaded indifference is the last thing most people would think of to describe their employees. That certainly is not my experience there. (I would tend to think, rather, that you were projecting either what you were expecting to see, or what you would feel in a similar job.)
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TMedina
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Entirely possible, but that was my experience.

I am sure that Walt Disney Inc. like most companies would hate to hear their employees so described.

Compare them to career burger flippers at McDonald's if that analogy holds more weight for you.

-Trevor

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B warren
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Found many other things about Dr. Marty Tingelhoff that u might interesting. He left the Kingsport Tn church in great financial shape n new pastor willie Malone, Olivet's old pastor took it over. Willie Malone had sexual relations w numerous women in the church n he n grant rockley misused the money n destroyed the church not Marty. The article reprinted here has many factual errors n conclusions not shared. After river of life published these accusations in " court documents", Marty sued the church for slander n these accusations were dropped the next day. The policeman quoted in the article , mark bishop, was investigated n disciplined for beating dr. Tingelhoff af his arrest, which was because of a new brain medication reaction not drunk driving. Mary Clark, Jim Charon, Bruce ternary, n Bryan lash n Roy leffew, took over river of life n both of the thriving churches died within 6 months
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B warren
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Dr Marty Tingelhoff has 4 children (2 adopted), 17 foster kids, n 5 grandkids,. He has been diagnosed w CTE n cognitive desonance, both brain conditions that he has continued to address in his life from years of football n stress from trying to help so many people worldwide in ministry. He has done many exemplary things in his life n this short dark period does not his whole life make. He helps people today in many ways., One being,helping them overcome the fear n superstitions that his years of preaching the bible has caused. Olivet, if u had panic attacks, u should not have gone back for sure . Thought u posters would want to know more of the whole story, boy just the very slanted n inaccurate one that u chose to respond to. His personal battles in life, we're just that, personal, not directed at anyone. He fought these conditions for 20 years before they affected him to the point that he could not continue n resigned. The people fore mentioned watched n participated in the destruction of great people n great churches. Just thought u might wanna know a bigger n fuller perspective. Dr Marty Tingelhoff is on Twitter also should u want to express ur feelings to him directly. He is n has not hidden n welcomes ur replies to this post or anything u would like to ask him
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TomDavidson
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B warren, I think I can honestly say that, over a decade since the original post, no one -- probably not even Olivet, and possibly not even Tingelhoff -- cares in the slightest.
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Rakeesh
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God, that is weird, that someone would after all this time take up that pastor's defense. An ongoing reader of Hatrack, I wonder, or someone who simply did a search on that pastor and came here? Hatrack was in the top five response, btw, so it's very possible.

Normally it's pleasing to me when someone adopts a more wary, skeptical attitude towards organized religion. And in this case it still is. Makes me sad for the old Hatrack, though (he said as if he were an old man). Makes me sad, too, the disillusionment and unhappiness it wrought, this sort of scandal, even if the net result was good.

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MrSquicky
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I'm pretty sure that Tingelhoff cares, as I'm pretty sure he's B warren. I did a quick search and found the twitter account and it has very similar writing as these posts.

Marty,
You won't listen, but whatever. You need to own the terrible things you did. From your twitter, it seems like you are still pretty troubled, but your approach of avoiding responsibility for these problems and the damage you have caused will not serve you in getting better. If you actually want to get better, seek out some professional help that won't put up with your nonsense.

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TomDavidson
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Me, I'm curious what kind of quack gives someone a diagnosis of cognitive dissonance.
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Orincoro
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Well Tom, with just s little link-hopping on Wikipedia, I've been diagnosed with at least 7 distinct emotional and thought disorders, and I suffer from celiac disease, seasonal allergies, and scurvy.

A psychiatrist has diagnosed me with information bias.

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Orincoro
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Well Tom, with just s little link-hopping on Wikipedia, I've been diagnosed with at least 7 distinct emotional and thought disorders, and I suffer from celiac disease, seasonal allergies, and scurvy.

A psychiatrist has diagnosed me with information bias.

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Samprimary
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I kind of enjoy the nuts and bolts of this particular inanity.

It's deep.

Apparently what we have here is that an old, deeply bigoted nutbag once had a good racket going, being a charismatic church leader, getting a hefty paycheck to command the gospel to the masses or whatever, and spending his spoils on alcohol, drugs, sex, and gambling! But this ended when his being a deeply troubled addict and abuser finally elevated to a level of profound, crippling dysfunction, and his indiscretions could not be kept under wraps.

He's shut out in a scandal and fades from view.

In 2015 he googles himself and finds a forum where he's being talked about. He must respond! He will pretend to be someone else and speak valiantly on his own behalf.

He doesn't really understand forum timestamps or sequencing at all so he maybe has no clue he is necroing a thread that has lain dormant for many many years.

He doesn't really understand the forum's post creation or edit functionality at all so instead of just writing and then revising and editing one post he's accidentally posted five posts in a row in a sort of accidentally exploded diagram of his edit history.

He doesn't really understand that his fumbling command of written language and very poor writing skill ensures that his alternate persona has the exact same glaring and pattern deficiencies as his public twitter account and the two individuals are obviously one and the same.

And he doesn't really understand why it's a concern that we can go look at his public twitter account, because five minutes of trawling through his hot islamophobic garbage will cure most people of any sympathy for the idea that he's basically just a good guy and we all just got the wrong idea about him.

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Samprimary
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ANYWAY hi 2004, how the hell are ya! Greetings from 2015, man you would not BELIEVE what we've done with the place. We're all living in a glorious, prosperous, enlightened future where post-scarcity has made the true frontier of Man an age where self-betterment is the only goal.
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Samprimary
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[a long, slow, squeaky farting sound proceeds for 22 seconds]
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TomDavidson
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Also, iPods come with phones inside, now.
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Samprimary
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Also sort of a critical update: this year I was in a bar and was listening, and said 'is it just me or does all this new music suck and sound the same as last year's music'

then this immediately happened welp bye

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
ANYWAY hi 2004, how the hell are ya! Greetings from 2015, man you would not BELIEVE what we've done with the place. We're all living in a glorious, prosperous, enlightened future where post-scarcity has made the true frontier of Man an age where self-betterment is the only goal.

The President is black, the DVD is dead, Facebook is the king of the internet (don't worry about it, it's this thing), we never use cell phones to call people anymore, and there is something called artisanal toast.
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theamazeeaz
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I'm pretty sure I had a Facebook in November 2004...
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Orincoro
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You were in the minority then. I certainly did by the summer of 2004, but I was easily in the first half million.
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FlyingCow
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In November 2004 it was still thefacebook.com. It didn't reach it's millionth user until Dec 30 2004 (limited to college email addresses at the time), and it wasn't open to the public until Sept 2006.
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theamazeeaz
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Well, yes. I only say "I think" because Facebook took off its join date from your timeline, so I tried to look it up, but it wasn't there (apparently you have to download your profile??). While 2004 is on my wall, there's nothing there until 2005. People didn't really know what to do with walls, and even the whole news feed concept (still not introduced for quite a while) creeped people out. I was in my first year of college, probably joined in the fall, and my older sister was super jealous because *her* college wasn't invited yet. She made me suggest it to Facebook multiple times. Those were the days. Thefacebook sounds super weird now.
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B warren
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I did not grant Dr. Tingelhoff an interview at his court hearing years ago n therefore did not have his perspective in my article. I had been contacted by many of his church members n interviewed them n researched more on my own. How u feel is your business. Dr. Tingelhoff has given u a way to communicate with home directly. If you feel so inclined, feel free to utilize that avenue.
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MrSquicky
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Marty,
Beth Warren is a real, actual, easily contactable person. She's an award winning journalist working for The Courier-Journal in Louisville, KY.

She doesn't write like a coked out Christian bigot like you do. By pretending to be her to cast aspersions on her, you are likely committing a felony. You can come clean or I can contact her and see if she wants to pursue legal action against you.

---

edit: I figured I should capture where Marty pretended to be the B Warren who wrote the original piece:
quote:
Originally posted by B warren:
I did not grant Dr. Tingelhoff an interview at his court hearing years ago n therefore did not have his perspective in my article. I had been contacted by many of his church members n interviewed them n researched more on my own. How u feel is your business. Dr. Tingelhoff has given u a way to communicate with home directly. If you feel so inclined, feel free to utilize that avenue.


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MrSquicky
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Actually, screw it. You're a scum bag and don't get another chance. If you're doing that here, you are likely doing it in many other places. I let her know you are impersonating her and libeling her.

Your posts are already backed up and available if she chooses to do anything with them, but for convenience sake, I'll capture your other two.

quote:
Originally posted by B warren:
Found many other things about Dr. Marty Tingelhoff that u might interesting. He left the Kingsport Tn church in great financial shape n new pastor willie Malone, Olivet's old pastor took it over. Willie Malone had sexual relations w numerous women in the church n he n grant rockley misused the money n destroyed the church not Marty. The article reprinted here has many factual errors n conclusions not shared. After river of life published these accusations in " court documents", Marty sued the church for slander n these accusations were dropped the next day. The policeman quoted in the article , mark bishop, was investigated n disciplined for beating dr. Tingelhoff af his arrest, which was because of a new brain medication reaction not drunk driving. Mary Clark, Jim Charon, Bruce ternary, n Bryan lash n Roy leffew, took over river of life n both of the thriving churches died within 6 months

quote:
Originally posted by B warren:
Dr Marty Tingelhoff has 4 children (2 adopted), 17 foster kids, n 5 grandkids,. He has been diagnosed w CTE n cognitive desonance, both brain conditions that he has continued to address in his life from years of football n stress from trying to help so many people worldwide in ministry. He has done many exemplary things in his life n this short dark period does not his whole life make. He helps people today in many ways., One being,helping them overcome the fear n superstitions that his years of preaching the bible has caused. Olivet, if u had panic attacks, u should not have gone back for sure . Thought u posters would want to know more of the whole story, boy just the very slanted n inaccurate one that u chose to respond to. His personal battles in life, we're just that, personal, not directed at anyone. He fought these conditions for 20 years before they affected him to the point that he could not continue n resigned. The people fore mentioned watched n participated in the destruction of great people n great churches. Just thought u might wanna know a bigger n fuller perspective. Dr Marty Tingelhoff is on Twitter also should u want to express ur feelings to him directly. He is n has not hidden n welcomes ur replies to this post or anything u would like to ask him


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Samprimary
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Oh so this gets better

who is he trying to pretend he is and why?

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MrSquicky
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He's trying to pretend he is the writer of the original article - posted in this thread here.

It was really easy to look up the real Beth Warren, who as a professional journalist, doesn't actually write like someone in desperate need of medication, and send her a message, so I did.

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steven
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I can't believe he doubled down. Will he do it again?


Stay tuned

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by FlyingCow:
In November 2004 it was still thefacebook.com. It didn't reach it's millionth user until Dec 30 2004 (limited to college email addresses at the time), and it wasn't open to the public until Sept 2006.

Yep, I was in one of the first few dozen schools, after the Ivies and Stanford.

It then not only limited to college email addresses, but to specific colleges. They even had specific domains for each college at that point- something they quickly did away with.

quote:
While 2004 is on my wall, there's nothing there until 2005. People didn't really know what to do with walls, and even the whole news feed concept (still not introduced for quite a while) creeped people out.
The very first version of the wall was a weird conception. It was actually a wiki, that anyone could edit. And it had a series of bizarre control systems- all of which got changed pretty quickly until they came up with the real wall concept after a year or so.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
He's trying to pretend he is the writer of the original article - posted in this thread here.

It was really easy to look up the real Beth Warren, who as a professional journalist, doesn't actually write like someone in desperate need of medication, and send her a message, so I did.

I feel how Wolf Blitzer must have felt when he gazed upwards at the Ron Paul blimp

Amazing, amazing, he repeated, as if in a trance

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SBRad
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Dude, you are not cool. Sounds like you are ALL broken by Marty's indiscressions. I have read through the entire thread and you are blatantly rude, threatening, trashy at best, and entirely pathetic. I actually went to River of Life as a teenager. Yes he could be super pervy in his sermons, but if he was wrestling (or losing the match) to these sorts of issues, of course it would come out!

Whoever you are writing these stupid things about Marty, you are wrong. You come off as arrogant, like you are the Great judge. If people are all messed up with God over Tingelhoffs mess than that is on them. Tingelhoff never said he was god, so people should learn that if they are going to insist on the Christianity business, they have to lean in to the god part and understand that humanity is different than God. But in the same way we want Christianity to tie our crappy lives up with a pretty little bow, we want our pastors to do that for us, too.

Pastors are human! "The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it?" I am not a Christian at all, but it's not because of Marty Tingelhoff, and at least after he was caught he kept it real and became a human again.

I'm not Christian because I can't fit my beliefs into what Christianity requires beliefs be fit into. I'm just not so narrow minded. Anyway, I do suggest you get a hobby other than tearing people apart from behind a computer screen. And while Marty did some stupid crap, he did do A LOT of good. I imagine he still does. He is just a dude, like all of us, his failing were super public...that's the price he has to pay for being god-famous.

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SBRad
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Also, no one knows who Beth warren is but you - and no one cares.
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