posted
You know not until lately have I truly questioned the seriousness of Americans. More and more I've found that I really am one of the few persons who actually studies and researches what goes on in the world to any great extent, at least amongst the general populace. It apalls me how little most people know about , well other people.
People will always clammer for peace etc., bring the soldiers home. That is such an insult to us, believe me. We'd love to go home, probably more than one of us doesn't care if Iraq does well or not, its just one of those things. The thing is from what I can tell the rest of the world would see the Iraqis suffer, the American army with them, simply because they don't won't to give any ground to the evil Americans and their gestapo leader Bush. I'm so tired of my commander in chief being bad mouthed, but you know keep saying what you will it only makes me groan and become embarassed.
As a whole I've become disenchanted with my patriotism, that people in my family gave up so much for what America is today. |::shakes head:: My father is a disabled vet and my surviving uncle is still rather scarred from Vietnam. MY great uncle who died just recently lost his leg in WWII after serving in Africa, Italy,and then at the end Germany. No one in my family has been a general, or even an officer. I think the highest rank attained was my great great great grandfather who was a first sergeant of a infantry company in the civil war,he took a bullet through the hip which he later died from fun fun huh.
Basically I'm tired of all the siliness in America, yes it should be allowed, freedom and what not I believe everyone should go about their business and do what they please, but that doesn't make the pain go away at all. I suppose what hurts in a way is that very few people actually love soldiers, its just one of those things. Soldiers are honored during conflict and forgotten in peace. A sad rule to have. Plus no one remembers the man without medals. Funny that a person like PFC.Lynch could get so much media attention for being rescued. ::grumbles a bit:: I suppose I harbor more than a bit ill will against the American public and media, not to mention my other home Germany and Europe.But what am I to do then lol, move to Brazil, actually lol I did think of moving there when I was younger but yeah.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Glad to know you are alive and ok Black Fox.
Actually what I feel at the moment is that your commander and chief sent you over there inadequately prepared to do half of the job he wanted done. Soldiers are trained for war, not for attempting to wage peace, and he didn't plan adequately for the second half, leaving you guys over there somewhat stranded.
I support the troops completely. I know they have vowed to follow their commander-in-chief. This does not mean that civillians can't question whether that commander is actually headed in the right direction.
In the Charge of the Light Brigade, yes the commander obeyed his orders. But, we as civilians, don't want people blindly riding into the Valley of Death for what ultimately turns out to be a heroic, but misdirected fuitile effort.
That said, now, in Iraq, we -must- suceed. Failure isn't an option, but there may be differing opinions on how to get to that sucess. I would like to see our President, give a thoughtful, logical broad plan to the American public on his plan of approach to creating a sucessful representative government in Iraq. It doesn't have to be nitty-gritty specific, and I think we are quite forgiving if extenuating circumstances arise, but we want to know what our troops are in for, because we care about their lives.
AJ
Note: I'm not sure exactly what I think from all of the clamor going on from the reservists families right now about the extended deployment. Emotionally I know that I would want my family member back with me and out of harm's way, but logically I'm thinking well they knew this might happened when they joined the reserves.
Do you have any opinonions from a first hand view BlackFox?
posted
Don't be disheartened! The anti-American loudmouths are the minority!
Sure, there are a lot of people wandering through their sheltered lives believing that the evil can't touch them. But you know why the evil can't touch them? You.
And not just in America. What your doing is protecting those who would tear us down. And it's tempting to throw up your hands and let them suffer without our protection. But we don't do that because it would just make the job harder when we had Francistan actively take up arms against us instead of just engaging us in a political propaganda war.
You're protecting the free world. The left can only say what they say because you are there. If it weren't for you we would be under the same Convert Or Die threat that spred Islam across Africa and from the Pyrenees to the Indies.
So look at the lives of the Iraqis and imagine they had American faces. That's what you're preventing. And there are a lot of us who know it and Appriciate it!
posted
First off from what I know there are no reserve infantry units here,which means basically they are all doing support jobs, which is rather sham compared to what we do. That is they aren't combat arms. Second we aren't waging war neither is this peacekeeping. Its more akin to occupation force, plus hey I still get shot at, the last couple of weeks we've had an ambush or attack every day wihtin 3 klicks of my companies compound. That and we weren't inadequately prepared, I've spent my entire time in the military either A. Training for this, or B. Doing it! I've heard stories from guys in other companies and more than once a platoon 38-45 ( none of us have full strength platoons) holding back good company plus sized elements on their own without taking casualites, or only taking one kia or a WIA. That and the real problem is these guys love to shoot and scoot, they just fire off a couple of rounds and run, they never stay to finish the job, for this reason they will lose what they are doing, they have no real victories, only the chance for defeat. Plus we bust them all the time, believe me I've been in on a raid or two. The real problem is when will the UN back us, when will we get some more money from all you kind folks back here to fix their nation to make it clean so that fringe elements stop getting recruits.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Believe me.. I'd love to gohome, I miss Morgan so much and its something terrible to be away. The thing is its my duty to be here and do this. You'd probably think a little differently if you saw what I see every day. Yeah bring the soldiers home, thats showing how you love the person, that doesn't show any respect for the proffesion or the job. Plus we've really taken such low casualites, I don't want to see any of my friends die believe me, but come on we are barely being fazed, it could be a dozen times worse if they had any tactical sense or aim.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
The fact is that I am becoming an Anti American, its always been hard for me to say look at me I'm an American, now its simply worse. The people of my nation don't even really back whats going, might I add saying you support the troops but hate everything else is a very very hollow statement. You should hear what the guys over here think of all that. I can't even say I love my nation anymore!
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
** Salutes Black Fox ** ** Salutes Black Fox's Family **
Thanks.
Right now the politicians are jumping one of two ways, either attacking President Bush by attacking our efforts in Iraq, or attacking those who are attacking president Bush.
Nobody has stopped to truly thank the people who are dying to stop those who believe thuggery and terror are the keys to power.
I am sorry.
Remember, it has always been the common soldier who has made the US great, not the politicians who have made its mistakes.
Please tell all the soldiers you meet that we do appreciate your sacrifices, and I don't mean just those who die or are wounded. I am in awe of all of you who suffer and jump from overwhelming boredom to crisis reactions in such a professional manner.
Remember, people around the world will complain about you only because you are the best trained, best cared for and best acting soldiers that this planet has ever put together. The training, honor, and dignity demanded from the lowest private is more than was asked from a General in the Civil War. The fact that you do it amazes us.
I can not guarantee that you will not be overlooked, or your needs placed on the political back burners five years from now.
I can guarantee that I will not place you their. You all have my respect and my deepest appreciation.
posted
In that case my impressions of the inadequate preparedness of the troops for guerila attacks are due to media skewing. (Which doesn't entirely surprise me.)
quote: The real problem is when will the UN back us, when will we get some more money from all you kind folks back here to fix their nation to make it clean so that fringe elements stop getting recruits.
Part of the inadequate preparedness though (which is a broad term and I should have been more specific)is the fact that you guys don't have enough money, because your commander and chief wasn't exactly up-front about all the costs.
And I have a hard time seeing that the UN will ever back us. Plain and simple, they don't like us, because we are the richest freest nation on earth. Why should they back us when in their perception (not saying it is correct) the US just gave the finger to everyone on the UN to go into Iraq.
I think overthrowing the Saddam regime was a good thing to do, and even the right thing to do. But, our causus beli should have been exactly that, and we should have left the WMD issue as a minor point not the major one.
posted
As far as your mission in Iraq, most people I've spoken too realize that it is mandatory.
You are not there for oil or for some business.
You are there to rebuild a country that an idiot drove into the ground. You are there to keep as much of the peace as possible until the Iraqi's are capable of doing it themselves. You are there to capture/kill the worlds true bad guys.
There are idiot with no thought outside their own petty desires who are demanding we do the stupid, easy, or cheap thing. They scare me.
That doesn't mean I appreciate how we got where we are, or whether we should have gotten there when and how we did.
Those debates mean nothing to our troops on the ground.
They mean nothing to the Iraqi people without jobs, food, homes, medicine.
It only matters to those souless fools trying to arm them against us, and the idiot politicians trying to gather votes.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:The people of my nation don't even really back whats going, might I add saying you support the troops but hate everything else is a very very hollow statement. You should hear what the guys over here think of all that. I can't even say I love my nation anymore!
Would you rather everybody simply change their beliefs regarding the ethics of this war to support the military?
I mean, there's three things you can do if you feel your nation is doing the wrong things with its military. Firstly, you could say so, but still respect the troops for risking their lives anyway. Or, secondly you could say and also hate all members of the military for carrying out their orders. Or, thirdly, you could suppress what you truly think is right and pretend like you agree with everything we're doing, so members of the military feel you support them.
Which of these options would you consider the most honorable thing to do?
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I'm sorry Black Fox, I don't think I'm saying what I mean as well as I should.
I echo Dan_Raven's statment
quote:Remember, it has always been the common soldier who has made the US great, not the politicians who have made its mistakes.
Please tell all the soldiers you meet that we do appreciate your sacrifices, and I don't mean just those who die or are wounded. I am in awe of all of you who suffer and jump from overwhelming boredom to crisis reactions in such a professional manner.
My concerns are a result of not wanting to take you, the individual soldier and your life or death lightly. I have put considerable thought into the issue, and I was for the invasion of Iraq. I have since been disillusioned by the duplicity of the politicians involved and am most upset that it feels like they are talking out of one side of their mouths to support you yet at the same time hamstringing much of your effectiveness by not continuing to send enough of the money and supplies you need.
posted
first off don't lie just say what you want to say, just don't tack on that little PC comment of , but we support the soldiers and wish them the most luck. Yeah lots of luck so we can continue on with our barbaric killing and what not. Don't support me, honestly to a point I really don't give a flip its just annoying and embarassing. The thing is I honestly no longer want to be an American because of what all those people do , say, how they are educated. How many of my own partners work. Just tired of it all, why there can't be a good nation, and how any change I might wrought is basically wasted on America. Believe me I'm full of it! I'm tired of the first world! Give me a floor and some food and I'll work myself to death for any nation out there as long as I might make it something good,where the people are not ignorant, and where a hard days work is rewarded.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
"for this reason they will lose what they are doing, they have no real victories, only the chance for defeat."
Unless you consider that they aren't attacking you to achieve military victory; they don't expect that, and don't even want it.
They're attacking you to discourage you, and to discourage the people at home.
Frankly, you sound a little discouraged.
------
For my part, I have to admit that I don't think you should have been sent to Iraq at all; the country was invaded for what I basically consider to be no good reason, and I think it's a shame Bush got you involved. Now that we're there, though, we have to commit to finishing the task -- and believe me when I say that most Americans ARE supportive of that effort, even if they disagree with the political posturing of our leaders as you go about it.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I don't know whether it's your intent to do so or not, but you are not helping. He is not complaining about where he is or what he has been asked to do, he is complaining about the lack of will, resolve, and support from the American people. He has specifically complained about attacks on President Bush and saying it's all Bush's fault isn't going to help his morale any.
He is complaining about the fact that he fights for a group of people who, he feels, do not appreciate him. His disillusionment is not with his mission nearly so much as it is with the way it is being painted by, as Dan points out, people who are using his mission as a chess piece in their power plays.
Black Fox, please don't let me put words in your mouth, that's just what I read from your posts. Take heart... the whining, finger pointing and flat out misinformation of those who do not understand is not the whole story back here and it doesn't take away from the great things you and your people have accomplished over there... not the least of which is a *very* bloodless and amazingly fast overthrow of a regime.
Saudi Arabia? Syria? Countries who use the US as an target so their own people won't rebel?
Have you been listening to Taliban propaganda?
Or have I been missing this?
Nobody I've heard anywhere has said anything bad about the job US troops are doing accept the occasional problems with communications that result in some bad feelings, and until we find enough translators, that is going to happen.
Money: The government just asked for $85 Billion. The only thing holding up that money, which almost everyone agrees is needed, is some politicians grabbing air time to point out the Bush guessed wrong on the costs involved. Its on its way.
Other Countries: France is leading the Europeans and other industrialized countries into Bush Bashing by not offering to help out. Our President has realized this, and refuses to beg. Yet all their vindictiveness is pointed at Bush. None of it has been pointed at the soldiers doing more than their job.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Actually what I feel at the moment is that your commander and chief sent you over there inadequately prepared to do half of the job he wanted done. Soldiers are trained for war, not for attempting to wage peace, and he didn't plan adequately for the second half, leaving you guys over there somewhat stranded.
BannaOj:
Blackfox, you are not trained for nation building because democracy doesn't happen with a cudgel, it happens with a school. Depending on who you talk to, you aren't even trained for police-work. I'd be more than will to send an massive army full of Anne Kates out there to build a nation, but I'm not of those peole who get whiny with tax dollars.
quote: And I have a hard time seeing that the UN will ever back us. Plain and simple, they don't like us, because we are the richest freest nation on earth. Why should they back us when in their perception (not saying it is correct) the US just gave the finger to everyone on the UN to go into Iraq.
I don't know if it's okay to say that the world doesn't like us because we are rich and free. The part of me that doesn't like us has nothing to do with the fact that we are rich and free and has everything to do with that fact that we flouted the closest thing we have to an international democracy-- you know, one of the ideals we are supposed to embrace-- and alienated too many are friends to do it, all because we were so cock sure about WMDs. And as it turns out, our evidence wasn't so chaste or accurate, and now we are too proud to say that we may have fumbled a bit.
BlackFox, it's good that you are out there, but the situation that puts you there is disgusting from many levels and perspectives, from Saddam to Bush. The US needs to get off its horse, show some humility, and send in a second wave of builders and thinkers, either our own or the UNs. BlackFox, you want to talk about seriousness. I'm not going to kiss your ass for being an infantry man. I don't care if everyone in your family was an infantry man, it actually makes me wonder if you lack the imagination to find another position. Hopefully, we are going to make the infantry man position, as currently understood, nearly obsolete by the time you have kids, so your son is going to have pick fights to continue your legacy. You are the wrong man for this job using the wrong tools, and the best you can do is support the builders when they come. It's time for second shift in a hockey game. Let's bring you home so you can enroll in school, and keep only enough soldiers out there to keep stray bullets from hitting the engineers and the teachers.
posted
lol, you could say its from certain parties that I personally know. Kind of hard on me to say the least.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Honestly I don't know how much good they will do, I've talked to a lot of the Iraqi engineers around where I work and to be honest they like us and all and believe we have intelligent women and men coming over, but all they really want are the supplies and equipment to let themselves do the job. Of course the fact is that we do insult a lot of their intelligence and send a thousand Anne Kates over here to do their job. Our problem isn't with the educated Iraqi man, it is with the poor man in the street listening to who knows what. Its to the thieves that were already there. That and as far as police work, we do fine as leg work etc., patrols and raids. Mostly its our intel that really blows, I can't reach out and touch someone if I don't know who to touch. That and our ROE is so soft now more than once I've taken rounds, but I can't do a thing because you know.. I can't just spray in the general direction of a muzzle flash when there are two innocent dudes just chilling outside that window. Heck we can't even shoot people that have weapons, we have to peacefully approach them and confiscate the weapons. Believe me it can be a bit hairy if you don't know what said parties reaction is going to be. Now as far as the mech guys in Baghdad, I think they need to get on the ball. I've seen them work, especially urban stuff, and they realy are quite bad. I remember watching 3rd ID train in Kuwait, and I'm surprised they didn't take more casualites, thank god for armor plating huh.
[ September 26, 2003, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Black Fox ]
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
IRami I agree about sending a second wave of thinkers and builders, and we would if the terrorists, extremists, and stupid folks would stop killing anyone they disagree with at the moment.
Black Fox gets the unfun job of trying to stop them, or standing around being a target for them until they kill themselves off.
HOwever, I would add we all want that second wave NOT to be loaded with Bush Cronies and kickback dealing companies looking for a quick buck.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Guys, what you have to remember is that combat has a way of focusing the mind terribly. All the mish mash of grey goes away and there are only two kinds of people: those who are on your side, and those who aren't. Notice his comments about those "supporting the troops" but not the mission. Most soldiers feel that is nonsense, because if you don't support the mission you want them to fail and failure, to them, ultimately means death.
Sitting back here safe and sound, we can reason through all of that. Living in a foreign land where people are trying to kill you, all the reasoning and carefull placement of words goes away. You have only the mission, those who want it done, and those who don't.
Try, please, try, to understand what this all looks like from where he sits...
Posts: 2112 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
And someone once said, No one dreads war more than a soldier and no one truly understands peace and wants it more than a veteran.
Black Fox, I appreciate what you and your brothers and sisters are doing. I appreciate that you lay your lives on the line each day in hopes of making the world a better and safer place.
I'm not going to say I support our troops. I am going to say I believe in them and their abilities to accomplish the mission they have been tasked with and trained for.
Our government, however, had seriously underestimated, publicly, the amount of blood, sweat, tears and money it would take to reverse the damage Saddam had done to his own country. They pointed to how quickly we advanced instead of pointing to how Saddam had ravaged the areas and lives that we were passing through.
They talked about terrorists who used suicide bombs instead of guerrillas who shoot and scoot. Calling them guerrillas is a slap to guerilla fighters, these are cowardly souls with guns who fire off quick shots to prove their bravado and run. These are just cowards who harass.
They also didn't talk about how prevalent military style weaponry is over there in the civilian populace. Everyone has an AK and any one of you can have one pointed at you at any time.
I don't envy you a bit Black Fox, except for your courage and dedication.
Let the soldiers make the peace and it will last. Let the whole world make the peace and it will end before the ink is dry.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:HOwever, I would add we all want that second wave NOT to be loaded with Bush Cronies and kickback dealing companies looking for a quick buck.
Dan,
I'm sorry to say that that simply isn't going to be the case...
war is always a breeding ground for opportunists. I can promise you, Bush cronies or no, whoever goes in there will be looking to make big bucks and retire early...
Posts: 2112 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Yes, I realize I didn't say things as well as I should. However, Black Fox's inital complaint was the lack of "seriousness" in America.
To me the opposite of seriousness is levity. I don't think anyone here at Hatrack takes what the troops are doing over there lightly and I was attempting to demonstrate that. There is also a giant difference between what is actually happening on the ground there, and what we hear from the media, from either conservative or liberal sources.
Unfortunately, as is one of my biggest faults, I posted a logical post when what Black Fox actually needed was an emotional post because he's feeling down.
For me, knowing Black Fox, even over the internet makes me far more personally invested in the war than I would be otherwise. Unfortunately that inserts emotion back into the equation. I often wonder while driving to work, and listening to the news of the latest attacks, if this is the day that there is going to be a post saying we've lost him.
What that translates to me, in practical terms, is that I want to see our leaders make the wisest decisions possible. And I worry if it seems like they aren't. Because I want Black Fox back home with Pixiest on US soil both with his mission accomplished and still alive.
AJ (This was in response to TAK's post that is a bit up the page now)
posted
one interesting thing is we are giving the Iraqis 2nd amendment rights ::laughs:: We allow every household to have one AK-47 and/or handgun, with a maximum of 2 AK47 magazines fully loaded in the house as far as ammo goes. It can be a bit disheartning when you know every house in a neigborhood has an assault rifle in it, because you have gone through them all and found them there!
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Thank you for your words, but mostly I don't want words of calming, about the only person I know who can give me good advice on that already has, that is my father. Mostly I suppose I wish I could see more action in the USA, not just about Iraq, but numerous things. I suppose I want to be part of a great nation, not great in wealth and military power, but a nation great in culture and interest of humanity as a whole.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
"Because I want Black Fox back home with Pixiest on US soil both with his mission accomplished and still alive."
Um....I don't mean to bring this up, since it's probably an uncomfortable subject, but did I miss some happy news?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
They got engaged a while back. Not married yet so I guess technically his "home" isn't with Pixiest yet, but close enough.
AJ
(now I'm second guessing myself and trying to find the thread. Maybe it is Pixie and not The Pixiest but the screename of the female half of the relationsihp is something similar to that)
posted
Then I geuss the fault is with us, those who support our president in his choice, not being more vocal in our beliefs. You are probably right. Normally I am content that I believe, and just roll my eyes when people start on their anti-Bush and Anti-war tirades. Like I said before I usually stay out of political threads.
Maybe I should be more vocal. Something to think about.
Posts: 1244 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Irami, for someone with education, you haven't learned that much, especially about respecting other people for who they are.
Did you actually harp on Black Fox for being an enlisted infantryman? If I remember Black Fox is withthe 101st, an air assault/air cav division. That's infantry, in a way, but an elite infantry unit.
Also, the backbone of any military force is the infantryman. Air power can bomb, screen and do reconnaisance. Sea power can interdict shipping, protect logistics and do limited deep strikes. Armor can attack but cannot hold. Infantrymen, in this day and age, are the only ones who can take and hold ground and are the only ones capable of fighting warfare like we are seeing now.
The modern US infantryman is a specialist and has been highly trained to do the tasks they are given. Many are cross-trained in numerous other skill areas. And without enlisted men and women, you have no armed forces.
Once again, Irami, you've come across as an elitist snob who has little concern for the feelings of those he considers beneath himself.
Sending in an army of engineers and "thinkers" is a splendid idea in lala world, but it won't work in Iraq for some time.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:I suppose I want to be part of a great nation, not great in wealth and military power, but a nation great in culture and interest of humanity as a whole.
There is a quote from Thomas Huxley about America:
"I cannot say that I am in the slightest degree impressed by your bigness, or your material resources, as such. Size is not grandeur, and territory does not make a nation. The great issue, about which hangs true sublimity, and the terror of overhanging fate, is what are you going to do with all these things?" _______________________________________
Black Fox' job is to kill bad people at the risk his own life. A lot of people think it's a noble profession. I think it's so so, slightly primitive, and while necessary, and it's certainly not one that in which I think the government should be spending so much energy and daring.
This is the best:
quote:If I remember Black Fox is withthe 101st, an air assault/air cav division. That's infantry, in a way, but an elite infantry unit.
Also, the backbone of any military force is the infantryman. Air power can bomb, screen and do reconnaisance. Sea power can interdict shipping, protect logistics and do limited deep strikes. Armor can attack but cannot hold. Infantrymen, in this day and age, are the only ones who can take and hold ground and are the only ones capable of fighting warfare like we are seeing now.
The modern US infantryman is a specialist and has been highly trained to do the tasks they are given. Many are cross-trained in numerous other skill areas. And without enlisted men and women, you have no armed forces.
It's like you are energetically explaining football to me, and I just don't think our emphasis should be on sports, but go ahead, hold Fox' hand. I won't glorify the soldier.
posted
I think the time when oppressive governments could be allowed to exist is over. I think the fact that the Taliban is gone, and Saddam Hussein's regime is gone is a wonderful thing for the world and for all her people. Even if the fear of WMD was a complete pretext (and I don't think it was... not from the things we found out during the first gulf war about what was going on there, not after he gassed the Kurds, etc.) then it was STILL a good thing. Did you guys read about Uday and Qusay? About what sort of people they were and how they acted? Picking young girls at random off the street to rape? Torturing and murdering for sport? How can anyone go about their daily lives and think it's perfectly okay for us to leave such twisted brutal tyrants in power over millions of people?
We can't fix everything but we must fix what we can in our own time. What would Gandalf say to you guys? I feel as though my heart has been kindled within me by the flame of Narya! I guess because of Paul being over there it's just very real and personal to me this time. If there's anything we must change about America, it's that we have to quit finding it so easy to ignore people in other parts of the world. Honestly, the horrors those people have been living through for all these decades! We just had to help them! I feel just as badly for the people living under other oppressive regimes around the world. But we must do what we can. Sometimes by encouraging reform and sometimes by force of arms, when that's required. How could we turn a blind eye?
The world is a lot smaller place now than it used to be. We all HAVE to do now what we only OUGHT to have done all along which is to feel the suffering of our fellow human beings as though it were our own, and do everything we possibly can to make it right.
I'm no fan of Bush or of Republican politics, but never was a better kinder thing done than destroying those two regimes. And we MUST see it through and hold the course. We have to do everything possible to foster peace, stability, democracy, and prosperity, in those two countries. We can do it and we will do it. Have some faith! Love and Building always always win over Hatred and Destruction in the end, no matter how dark it may sometimes seem. Don't choose the losing side. Choose the Crystal City. Choose to be Makers.
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Okay, AKA...then...let's see...Libya, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China, a good deal of South America...Malaysia...if the time for tolerating tyrannical and opressive governments is over, we have a lot of fighting to do.
Posts: 3658 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote: It's like you are energetically explaining football to me, and I just don't think our emphasis should be on sports, but go ahead, hold Fox' hand. I won't glorify the soldier.
Actually, it's not football, it's called reality. You don't have to glorify the soldier, he doesn't ask you to do that. You just have to get off his back and go do your studies while he does something important.
Just remember that it was him and others like him who went down to the recruiter's office and said, "I'll put my life on the line in defense of this country for low pay, poor benefits and no appreciation because I believe that we have something worth fighting and dying on behalf of the United States and all of its people."
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
"You just have to get off his back and go do your studies while he does something important."
See, this may be the problem. Irami does not believe -- and, frankly, I don't believe -- that being a soldier is universally more important than being, say, a diplomat or college professor. Asking us to glorify the profession is a little unreasonable, especially since we have an all-volunteer army nowadays -- and there are plenty of people signing up for other important, life-threatening jobs.
In fact, the only reason I respect Black Fox for joining the army is not because he joined the army -- I don't respect someone by default for doing that -- but because he did so for particularly intriguing reasons.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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How has that building and maintaining peace in this world taken a lesser moral value than fighting the bad guys.
The price of peace is higher in dollars and still higher in determination and applied democracy than shooting all of the bad guys. If both options were available, I'd like to think that we would take the negotiating table over the gun.
I think the kindest action was done by the cooler heads who never gave up on negotiation, and the decisive power that language performs in politics. The people who were committed to democracy not only because it was expedient, but because civil people don't take when there is a chance that it could be freely given.
I was disgusted by the our treatment of the UN, and I'm appalled that we haven't found any WMDs. If we went in for a humanitarian mission, then that is the basis on which we should pick our targets, and we should have convinced the UN with that argument instead of WMDs.
posted
In the real world, sadly, it takes both thinkers and soldiers. Why? Because there are evil thugs out there who are waiting for the chance.
I've always believed the best set up would be benign anarchy. Sadly, though, everyone is equal until the first person decides they want to be in charge.
Negotiations are fine and noble. But how do you negotiate with folks like Saddam Hussein or Kim-Il from North Korea. Can you negotiate them into stepping down and allowing a more peaceable, human rights intensive government to take over? It hasn't worked yet.
Didn't work with the Taliban either. They were content to be blockaded in so they could go about imposing their will on others and destroying the culture and history of their country.
And yes, Tom, I will give a soldier respect just BECAUSE we have an all volunteer army. I'll respect our professional soldiers as a whole for the sacrifice they are willing to make, just like I will respect police officers, fire fighters, paramedics, rescue personnel and others who have for their jobs situations that will put the lives of others before theirs. It would be disingenuous to do otherwise.
Someone who is a scientist, a philosopher, a musician, an artist, insurance salesman, burger flipper... let me know who you are and what you have done and then you get my respect.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I know you are frustrated, and likely were I in your shoes I would be, too. It is easy to become jaded, hard to retain wonder, even for someone who has not been through what you have. I can't speak to your experience; I haven't been there. But when I start to become bitter, I stop and take a look around. And while there are plenty of bad people around, there are also a lot of good people doing good things. I look around and I see parents struggling to do the right things for their families, I see ethical people standing up for what they believe, I see people supporting friends in time of need. As much as I have seen anywhere else I see people creating beauty, whether it be through craft or art, or furthering our understanding of the universe. I have seen love.
I know you are frustrated, and you have every right to be so. But I hope that when your work is done that you can come home and see us for the good as well as the bad.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I am sorry Black, I went about this all wrong.
You are giving your time and your energy, perhaps some of your sanity, and possibly your life, all for your country.
Besides being polite and showing our appreciation with cheap and easy words, what would you like us to do?
I am serious. That is not a cynical question or a desparate gasp.
What can I, a civilian with AC and cable and all the food I want, do for you and you fellow soldiers.
I don't want to hear what the Army wants, or what some politico-in-uniform thinks you want. I don't want to presume to know what you want.
I want you and the others there to know we stand behind you, your mission, and your sacrifices.
How can we show you that? Name it and I will do my best to get it done?
Need a TV? Need Cash? Need a visit by the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders? Need bibles? Need houses covered in yellow ribbons? Green ribbons? Red/White/Blue ribbons? Need beer?
What can we do? What can we say? What can we get for you?
Talk it over with your buds and let us know.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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thanks for responding to something so hopelessly lost back in the thread... I hope I didn't come off too harshly.
HDD,
You said:
quote:Then I geuss the fault is with us, those who support our president in his choice, not being more vocal in our beliefs. You are probably right. Normally I am content that I believe, and just roll my eyes when people start on their anti-Bush and Anti-war tirades. Like I said before I usually stay out of political threads.
Maybe I should be more vocal. Something to think about.
I have been thinking the same thing since reading Black Fox's post... unfortunately I am not well-enough equipped to go toe to toe with some of the people on this forum in terms of both mind and research. Having reason to doubt their arguments is one thing... actually being able to counter them in public debate is entirely another...
Like General Sam Houston in the War for Texas Independence, I've not wanted to commit my forces without being assured of victory... and unlike him, perhaps I have not so much to risk and should be a little less cautious..
[ September 26, 2003, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: T. Analog Kid ]
Posts: 2112 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Fox...I've been thinking about something. Can you respect and support someone for defending their beliefs, or their country...even if you don't necessarily agree with their beliefs, or their country?
Is saying 'we support the troops', but then saying 'but we dont' like the administration that put them in Iraq' really that shallow?
Posts: 3658 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Guys, what you have to remember is that combat has a way of focusing the mind terribly. All the mish mash of grey goes away and there are only two kinds of people: those who are on your side, and those who aren't. Notice his comments about those "supporting the troops" but not the mission. Most soldiers feel that is nonsense, because if you don't support the mission you want them to fail and failure, to them, ultimately means death.
Sitting back here safe and sound, we can reason through all of that. Living in a foreign land where people are trying to kill you, all the reasoning and carefull placement of words goes away. You have only the mission, those who want it done, and those who don't.
Try, please, try, to understand what this all looks like from where he sits...
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