posted
A couple evenings ago I took my three daughters (14, 18, 20) out to supper. My eldest's boyfriend was along, too. At a busy taqueria, I stood post at the checkout while the gang made their orders and watched the burritos being wrapped, etc.
As each order in turn was tossed up the counter to the checkout, I asked the child what he/she wanted to drink. These then were added to the tab. There was a moment of confusion as boyfriend Dave and daughter Alexis realized belatedly that there was indeed a self-service soda pop machine in the restaurant proper. The result of this was that Alexis declined a drink altogether, while Dave asked for a Coke.
As we sat to eat, Alexis said, "you just don't get it, Dad... you never order more than one soda when there's self service" ... {snicker, nudge, wink} ... And it did take me a moment to realize what she meant.
I was abruptly reminded of a conversation I'd had with a friend several months ago, a friend with whom I was just getting acquainted; we'd been sharing, you know, our life histories and telling about our outlook and values and so forth, and she had said: "I'm scrupulously honest - for example..." and wouldn't you know the example that had come first to her mind - "I would just never be able to bring myself to go back for a refill on a self-service soda fountain without paying." (Obviously, unless it were advertised as free.)
Now, my daughter is 'poor' and in college, and speaks from a somewhat different level of need than my friend, who is affluent. But should affluence be a distinguishing mark in one's ethics?
Is "theft" more acceptable if it's only for $1.49?
Is "theft" ok if it is part of an acculturated way of living (e.g., college kid bumming around with holes in her pockets)?
What are you willing to do, or not willing to do, in comparable circumstances (no chance of getting caught, a sense of need, peer pressure, etc.)?
A related scenario, also starring the felonious Alexis, is from last summer. She worked in retail, and became intimately familiar with all the other retail establishments in the immediate neighborhood, and the other college kids working behind the other counters - and her mother and I gradually learned that this was a kind of thieve's underground, where any one of them could go into the shop where another worked, and get, say, a free ice cream, or a free sandwich, or slice of pizza. Sometimes these were extra orders or day-olds which would have been thrown out, but sometimes not. They observed an approximate quid-pro-quo, but all at the expense of their respective employers. I thought it was despicable, but Alexis (and all her buddies) thought that was hopelessly square of me - this didn't hurt anyone, it had a kind of internal logic, it had a bit of the thrill of 'beating the system' - it wasn't really stealing.....
Posts: 431 | Registered: Oct 2003
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If a place has self serve drinks, I ask if there are free refills. Usually the answer is yes. If there are free refills I order the smallest, cheapest size. I might refill several times, but I figure that they do have free refills. I would never order just one drink for the whole group. Each person pays for a drink.
Then again, the restaurant (in the soda case) laughs at its customers because the price of the soda and the cup is like $0.15. *shrug*
As for the restaurant case, speaking from experience I can tell you that employers actually factor in those sorts of things when they pay wages. This is one of the ways they can pay minimum wage, after all.
None of this is to say that thievery is OK or acceptable, just to put a broader view on it, and there is a broader view. So when life is looked at under a microscope, yeah, I'm a thief too. Perhaps I should feel bad about this, but I don't. Now, do I steal from people who aren't laughing at me behind my back at how much of a sucker I am? Nope.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Trying to think of some clever way you can steal from Alexis as a faceless institution. For instance, has she left anything behind at your home as a college student? Oh well. I guess if she doesn't know better by now... I don't mean to judge her, I'm just saying that I wouldn't hire her or even let her babysit my kids. I guess that's the question: If you could hire someone just like yourself, would you? Young people have trouble having empathy for faceless corporations, but you may want to dig up some of the research about how their prefrontal lobes aren't done developing yet to share with her.
I have to say I would be tempted to lie about how many people I have in a hotel room with me. But then, I have nothing against sleeping in a Wal Mart Parking lot. Also, I recently heard a sermon in which a man had done this and then a couple months later his son lied about his age to get a discount on a movie. Ouch! I'm sure I'm still doing this.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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My wife and I usually share a drink, regardless of whether there are free refills or not. We generally don't need to refill the drink, but if we do, and there's a charge, it wouldn't even occur to me not to pay it.
I've gotten more honest as I've gotten older though. I can remember, in Jr. High, my friends and I didn't hesitate to share a plate, if we could get away with it, when we went to a place where they had a buffet.
In high school and college I worked at a fast food place, and while we were officially supposed to pay for food if we had any, no one ever did unless the owner happened to be in the building. We also traded food with other restaurants frequently, and thought nothing of it. Furthermore, I routinely gave customers large orders of fries when they ordered small, simply because I could open the large fry box and dump the fries into it one-handed, while doing something else with my other hand, but had to use both hands to put the fries into the small fry sack.
I think that the food seemed like an infinite and valueless thing to those of us that worked with it (on a subconscious level, that it; of course we were aware that it was purchased, and that it was finite). It felt to us like the food was ours, so we didn't have a problem trading it for food we wanted.
I wouldn't have that attitude if I were in the same environment now, but at the time it seemed natural.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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msquared, have you encountered any places with the self-serve fountains that don't allow free refills?
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Where rivka? I've never been in a fast food place where the self-serve drinks weren't free refills.
I would consider sharing a cup in that case to be stealing, but I've done my share. I worked at Babbages in college. We were encouraged to take the software home for a few days and try it out so we could sound reasonable intelligent if someone had a question. Of course, we were supposed to delete if when we were done. A few of my friends had a steady supply of games while I worked there. Looking back on it now, it's not something I'm proud of.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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No I don't know of any, but I would guess that there are some out there. That is why I never super size the order. They are going to charge me 20 cents more or something just for a bigger cup? I don't think so.
posted
A couple of the kosher pizza shops in my area have self-serve soda fountains that say "No refills." Now, they're near the the counter, so if you did refill, you'd have to have the nerve to do it right under their nose. But when it's busy, I'm sure that one could do so without being noticed.
Oh, and in at least one of these places, you take your own cans or bottles of soda, juice, etc. from a cooler.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I fail to see how it is stealing to only order one drink if they have free refills, although it is certainly inconvenient. You pay for the cup, not the beverage, although if the store did not have free refills then yes it is.
My grandfather sometimes orders water and gets Sprite. That too is stealing.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Subway used to charge for refills, but they've gotten away from that in recent years. I've seen a few other places that charge for refills, but they're not common.
Posts: 609 | Registered: Apr 2003
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In Lawrence, Kansas there is a pizza place called Papa Keno's that charges 25 cents for refills from their self serve fountain drink machine. Another place in the same town, Yello Sub, allows one free refill, and then charges 35 cents for any refills after the first. Again, it's a self serve fountain.
posted
I don't think that I am a thief. When I see self-service soda fountains, I have refills, and I don't ask if they are free. I just assume. I would say, though, that free refills are the norm in this situation, and so if a restaurant doesn't want you to refill without paying, it is their responsibilty to post a sign or something. I think it is stealing for two people to get one cup in this situation. I think one should, at the very least, ask if that is acceptable (since, after all, it wouldn't be stealing at a restaurant that did not give free refills).
The quid pro quo might not be stealing. Many restaurants have an official policy of cutting breaks to each others' employees, because these people will often turn around and send business to your establishment. This is common in restaurants, bars, and clubs, and it is endorsed and approved by the ownership in many cases.
When I worked in a pizzeria, we were not expected to pay for our own food if we prepared it ourselves during work time (and, I suppose, if it was not a gargantuan quantity). I would frequently make myself a small pizza ten minutes or so before I got off and take it home. I also frequently ate buffet leftovers out of sight of the customers. If I came in on my night off, I was expected to pay, but I did receive a disount.
It is typical for employees to get perks when they shop with their own companies.
I too have found myself becoming more scrupulous as I get older. I was much more likely to steal in this way when I was twenty. I like to think I am being more scrupulous and that I am more mature now, but who's to say that it's not simply a function of the fact that I have more money now, and so don't feel the need to take stuff?
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Dec 2002
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I remember friends in college who would take a plastic baggie in to an all-you-can-eat buffet. When they were done, they would take some with them.
If that had been a regular meal, it would just be taking a doggy bag. But since they always seemed to purposely get more than they planned to eat, I thought it was dishonest.
Posts: 7 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Is there actually a sign or something saying that you're not allowed to share cups? What are you buying when you pay for the drink, and where is it stated?
Posts: 2443 | Registered: Apr 2002
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msquared, the way I see it free refills means you can have as much as you want. I have never seen a fast food place specifically state that customers may not share cups, so I have no moral qualms. However, as I cannot abide ice in any drink, I usually have to get my own anyway. Also I make enough money to not need to pinch pennies quite that much. Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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It really irks me when I work somewhere and my friends come in to "see me" and want something free or a discount. And it really irks them when I won't give it to them Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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An interesting point is that if you go to an all-you-can-eat buffet, there are usually signs up specifically saying that you can't share a plate. Does that imply that fast food places need to specify that?
To my mind, it's one of those things that doesn't need to be stated.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Of course they need to say that! If not, it may be a bit distasteful to some, but it isn't stealing: it's taking legitimate and legal advantage of the establishment's lack of prudence.
For the record, I don't do that, but only because I dislike sharing drinks with most people.
Posts: 2443 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Christy and I almost ALWAYS share a single small drink with free refills. Frankly, speaking as a former fast food manager of a place that had free refills, the profit margin on drinks is so high that it's highly unlikely any one family, refilling as often as they want, could possibly result in a net loss; restaurants swallow this cost because the majority of their demographic does NOT share drinks. (Of course, if this trend ever reversed, they'd probably go back to the old way -- but as it is, even people who really abuse the free refill system wind up helping the restaurant profit most of the time.)
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Self-serve soda fountains are really just buffet style drinking.
Those who pay can have as much as they want.
(unless otherwise stated at the restaurant)
OTOH, I can certainly understand not feeling guilty about sharing a drink with someone.
I mean, it's a matter of degree, too. If my date and I decide to split a drink and we only refill once, then I don't see how we've stolen anything. If we refilled five or six times (or more, if I dated groups ) then I think it's safe to say that we've abused the buffet style drinking system.
Of course, none of this matters to me because I only drink water in restaurants anyway. Not only do I not drink caffeine of any kind, I feel that purchasing a soda for $1.50, refills or no, is an act of the "faceless corporation" stealing from ME.
I break movie theater rules often by sneaking in my own snack materials for the same reasons.
Posts: 1307 | Registered: May 2000
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It begins to sound as if we've identified the nature of that very real gray area - all you absolutists, listen up - where there is a distinction between 'dishonesty' and 'breaking the rules.'
I mean, we all know not to take something that isn't ours. Even something they left behind by accident - they might be back for it - someone else might take it in the meantime - but... it ain't mine. No takee.
But if it's the faceless corporation, which by pricing policy, implication, practice, or any other way, simply tries to compel conformance to a pattern of rules (for its own, sometimes excessive, benefit) then violations (for some) are lifted out of the realm of ethics and into something like civil disobedience - or at the very least, simply taking whatever puny individual advantage in revenge that one can.
quote: As for the restaurant case, speaking from experience I can tell you that employers actually factor in those sorts of things when they pay wages.
This doesn't, of course, justify shoplifting - which retailers have had to figure into their business model, too.
Posts: 431 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I think there's a letter-of-the-law/spirit-of-the-law issue at play. When I was a kid I would share them, because nobody told me I couldn't. Now I wouldn't, because I don't believe it's the intent of the establishment. I do think they would and should lose if they were stupid enough to prosecute someone for sharing a soft drink, if they didn't have it posted. I also think they'd be within their rights to tell a person to stop because it wasn't allowed, but not to tell them to leave without first giving the warning. And if when told to stop the person/people demanded a refund, the establishment should give it.
Besides -- Mama usually prefers water, and who needs to share that?
posted
Soft drinks are a total rip off anyway. Water, sugar, flavouring, colouring and some other unideintified chemicals, all for some ridiculous price. I say that "stealing" the extra soft drink doesn't do anyone any harm at all.
Morally, it is wrong, but when balanced with how much you pay, it becomes right. However, I'm not sure I would do it myself (I never have), so my theory is discounted.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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In the case of the restaurant where I worked, the whole "faceless corporation" thing didn't really come into play. It was a chain restaurant, but our store was independently owned by someone who was actively involved with the business.
I've been thinking more about the rules that governed people's food taking behavior there. The behavior was pretty uniform; everybody from the managers on down approached it the same way. When we weren't on shift, we expected to pay for our food. We generally didn't give free food to our friends (unless it was old food we took home at the end of the night, which would have been thrown out anyway). We didn't usually eat specialty, seasonal items, such as pies (which we only had in the Fall) without paying for them. When on shift, we didn't think twice about making ourselves a free sandwich. We knew that this was against the rules, although most people were fairly vocal about the fact that they thought that that was ridiculous. The owner knew that we took free sandwiches, and while he was officially against it, he didn't really seem to care. Nonetheless, when he was there we obeyed the forms and paid for what we ate while on the clock. I think the fact that we were allowed to eat as many fries, and drink as much pop as we wanted while on shift encouraged out thinking that there was nothing wrong with having a free sandwich too.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Actually, that brings up a second question for me. Do you water drinkers ever feel like the restaurant is watching as you fill up your soft drink? I know a lot of restaurants have had problems with people ordering water and then going to the self-serve and filling their cup with their choice of drink. This, I think, is much more dishonest than sharing a drink.
Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I agree Christy. I did this accidentally once, just filling up with pop out of habit, and poured it out and got water when I realized my mistake. Silly, maybe, since the restaurant was out the .01 cents the pop cost them anyway, but I wouldn't have felt right drinking it.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Hey, the sign says free refills. No other qualifiers.
Hell, at $1.79 a pop, you're paying for the cup and about three gallons of soda.
I say, get what you pay for. Even if you have to run outside and dump some in the parking lot.
I always order water. I love the stuff. But I always put a splash or two of lemonade in it. That, I believe, is stealing...but I never lose any sleep from taking a few cents worth of lemonade a month.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Heh. Christy, I hate it when you order water at a restaurant and they give you a really small clear plastic cup. It's like they just expect me to steal because I got water.
Posts: 1307 | Registered: May 2000
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OTOH, I suppose that since most places give water for free, they really are taking a loss on it; they didn't get to sell you a beverage, and they have to cover the cost of your cup and your water, too. Poor faceless corporations.
Posts: 1307 | Registered: May 2000
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I can never bring myself to order soda at a fast food place, and I can seldomly justify ordering fries.
I can get five pounds of fries at Wal-Mart for a dollar. Imagine how cheap they can get them...and then sell to you for ~$5 a pound.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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actually, the only thing like this that i really care about is the people who will alway order water with lemon, (only when its free, those of us that get iced tea are suppose to donate the lemon, if its not) when you go out to eat. They then use the sugar packets on the table to make their own lemonade. I hate it. Just don't do it. Hell ask, i'll buy you the lemonade.
Posts: 1621 | Registered: Oct 2001
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When I worked at Wendy's, we actually did charge 15 or 20 cents for a cup of water. I suppose this was intended to actually cover the cup, but who knows? We did not have a self-serve machine, and refills were 37 cents after tax.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sheesh, the feeling that I am not a thief is worth way way more than any pennies saved on stealing soft drinks. I am not a thief. I don't steal office supplies from the office. In fact, I bring so many of my own pens and pencils and sticky notes and things that I'm sure they end up with some of mine. I always have lots of that sort of thing around cause they're very popular stocking presents in my family. I don't use diskettes from work. I buy my own, they cost almost nothing! I don't take the hotel's note paper, or the sugar packets from the restaurant home to use. I don't take home food in a doggie bag from an all you can eat buffet. It says all you can eat, not all you can eat and carry!
A person I knew once would encourage her children to eat grapes and stuff in the produce department of the grocery store. I guess she thought that made them free.
I would be ashamed and humiliated to have to think of myself as a thief. The amount people charge for things is totally irrelevant to this. That's what a free market economy means. Charge whatever you like and if people think it's too expensive they won't buy it. It does NOT mean steal anything that has too high a price tag! Just hearing people talk about how much profit is made or how much someone charges for things (like CDs or cokes) gives me the creeps! If you think they charge too much then don't buy it! For heaven's sake! Or find another (legal) source who charges less! Why do people think they have a right to buy anything from someone at some price they think is good? If it's so easy to make money doing that then go into that business yourself, how about?
And if I were ever going to be a thief, I would most certainly not be a PETTY thief! How could anyone hold their heads up if they were? That is just so horribly shameful! If I were going to decide to be a thief I'd at least make it worth my while. Millions or hundreds of millions at the very least! For heaven's sake! <laughs>
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
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It really depends. The one girl i'm thinking about in particular will use as many lemons as she can get. She doesn't empty the little bin of them if there is one or anything, but 3-4 if she can get them. I've given up on saying anything. Everybody else seems to think its funny that she does this.
Edit: Everywhere i have worked that had fountain machines gave the staff as much pop as we could drink. Both places though limited you to one cup a day.
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