quote: Officers in Long Beach identified the truck from a stolen-vehicle report around 10 p.m. and found the teens casing a sporting goods store, which investigators said they had targeted to steal more guns. "We believe they had discussed what they were going to do if they came in contact with the police, including firing weapons at the police and doing whatever they could do to not be caught," LeBaron said. Items police found in the truck included a .22-caliber pistol, a .40-caliber pistol, a large sword, a mask, a digital camera, a trench coat, a knife, ammunition, a gun holster, gloves, a bag containing what appeared to be methamphetamine and a marijuana pipe, LeBaron said. When officers approached the boys, two sped away in the truck, leaving the third one behind, he said. "Our officers attempted to stop [the truck] knowing that [the pair] was possibly armed and dangerous," said LeBaron. The teenagers led police on a chase that wove in and out of the oceanside cities of Long Beach and Seal Beach before crashing the truck into a telephone pole in Westminster, said police. The two surrendered after officers held them at gunpoint and safely disarmed the 16-year-old, who was wearing the .40-caliber pistol in a shoulder holster. "We were very glad to get them into custody and also glad that nobody, including the suspects, was injured," LeBaron said. The only purported motive police could find for the teens' actions during their investigation came from one of the 14-year-olds, who told police that he was angry because his mother had taken away his X-Box, a multimedia video game and DVD unit. According to the boy's mother, his favorite game was "The Simpsons' Road Rage," which depicts scenes of violence by characters from the popular television show "The Simpsons." "That's why we took it away. He was obsessed with playing video games," his mother said. The events of her son's arrest made sense of his recent queries about how to find addresses and pay for things out of state, the mother said. She characterized her son as a good boy -- a Boy Scout who always was volunteering to help his friends and family. It was only the past six months, the mother said, that he appeared troubled -- sneaking out at night and hanging out with a group of older friends. Family members of the other boys could not be reached for comment. "He didn't use to be like that," the boy's mother said. "We thought we would just work it out. We thought we'd just watch him and monitor him close."
I'll just say what I said before, I don't think the makers of these games are trying to help kids.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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It has nothing to do with video games. It has to do with him hanging out with jerks and being a jerk himself. HALO is an XBox game too, and I personally watched Geoff Card play a ton of that game. HE'S not out sending cops on a high speed chase while brandishing firearms.
This is absolute crap. "My boy is a good boy. He only did those bad things because he played too many Simpsons video games with those poo poo head friends of his."
Your boy is a criminal lady, just ask the cops that had to bring him down.
Posts: 2532 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I did think the mother's comments were fairly predictable and ill conceived. I don't know what Halo is like, I'm not saying the games make people do things, I just don't see how they help people. And my fundamental moral code is that something that helps is moral. That which doesn't help isn't.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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*groans* And then some moron in Japan kills his mother because of Neon Genesis Evangelion. The lesson? Don't let these losers and morons watch ANYTHING or listen to music more intense than elevator music.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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But...then, by that logic, there are a whole lot of stuff that's immoral. Like...driving, for instance. If it's not for the specific purpose of helping someone, it hurts the enviroment, so...immoral? Yet..maybe I'm just being pissy, but I think that's too black and white for the real world...
Posts: 3658 | Registered: Jan 2002
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That's funny that you think it is too black and white. I thought the 10 commandments, or the Doctrine and Covenants, things like that were too black and white. Do you have a definition of morality you would like to share?
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Me? *shrugs* I have a few hard rules, like 'no killing', 'nothing that hurts someone else a lot', but...other than trying not to hurt other people? I make my moral decisions on a case by case basis, a lot. But I wouldn't say, 'anything that doesn't help someone isn't moral'. My martial arts training doesn't directly help anyone but me. Same with my writing, my anime watching, even reading.
Posts: 3658 | Registered: Jan 2002
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"And my fundamental moral code is that something that helps is moral. That which doesn't help isn't."
No, see. Something that helps is moral. That which hurts is immoral. And that which neither helps nor hurts is neither. You got your dichotomy wrong.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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It's not like such things are immoral. It's just that if people are so STUPID as to play a violent game and think, Oh, I'll just go out and shoot people and run them over then it's obvious that SOMETHING is wrong with them and their skeezy parents for letting video games and TV babysit them in the first place! I've spent hours shooting zombies in RE2. Even though I uncharacteristically swear and flip off the screen I'm not about to go out, buy a magnum and mow down people in a mall! This just shows there's no BALANCE with people like this. No going outside and looking at the real world. Just people getting shut up in their heads without parents bothering to explain, Now Timmy, the aliens in this game are not real. or something to that effect. Therefore, they should not listen to or watch or read ANYTHING until they can make those distictions!
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Oh, by the way, my opinion on the actual topic of the thread: I don't think it's reasonable to blame a game for someone's violent behavior. I play violent games. That doesn't make me want to go out and kill people, or maim them, or whatever. To do that, you have to have something seriously wrong with you FIRST, and only then can a game be an inspiration or a trigger.
Posts: 3658 | Registered: Jan 2002
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See, this is why I love Tom. He sees through to the basis of things like this (Though admittedly I found it painful when he distilled my personal behavior to such a basic descrption. I still couldn't deny that he was right.)
I remember his explanation of the Morally Neutral Act, when people were arguing that there was no such thing. LOL
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Nononononono!!! He can't have been influenced by Simpson's Road Rage!!
If he was, he would have waited for three hours after he decided to steal a car for the map to load. Then he'd steal the car, and run around the city picking people up and dragging them to the places they asked to be taken, avoiding Monty Burns all the while. Then time would run out and he'd have to stop and start over, once again waiting for the map to load. If he had earned enough, he could unlock a new car to steal...
Did I mention how crappy that game was? It's completely unrelated to any type of violence! If the mother wanted a game to blame, she could at least blame a good, violent one like Grand Theft Auto Vice City, in which you can actually use most of the weapons mentioned... What a lamer.
Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Morally neutral act suggests to me a silent falling tree. Of course something may seem helpful at the time and turn out to hurt (like the piggies flaying Pipo and Libo).
So you are saying that marketing violent video games is a morally neutral act?
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I guess in my world view, anything that isn't actively good is going to contribut to the bad. Fortunately, I've found a loophole for Hatrack, though it is only retroactive for my first bunch of hourse spent here.
According to Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, irrational beliefs both feed and result from anxiety. Challenging and Disputing such beliefs can help move one toward having rational beliefs. I've found Hatrack very good at helping me figure out which beliefs I have are not negotiable and which could flex.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Then, if something adds to bad if it's not actively good, why read fiction, or listen to music, or write a poem? How about I just think...that's got to be extremely limiting to live by. Of course, it's only limiting if you think there's something else out there...
Posts: 3658 | Registered: Jan 2002
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As stated by the inestimable Tom, a morally neutral act would be moving your stapler from one side of the desk to the other.
So, should I refrain from moving my stapler from one side of my desk to the other, simply because it doesn't add to the good?
Marketting violent video games might be bad, but individuals make choices. I can't control other's choices, only my own. I don't steal cars or kill people. I have played Simpsons Road Rage. Basically you pick up passengers and drop them off where they want to go, and it's a time trial thing, so the driving can be reckless.
Simpsons Hit and Run is the one where you can steal stuff, I think.
I don't drive recklessly and I don't kill people. But that isn't MORAL of me, because it doesn't make things better ?
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I dunno. But as previously established, I don't really read that much fiction or listen to music. I mostly post on Hatrack. My partner has begun to comment on it.
Some people are allergic to the word "moral".
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I'm not allergic to the word 'moral' though I do think that saying that anything that does not actively contribute to the 'good' is therefore not 'moral' is a bit constrictive. I mean, can't I take a bubble bath without feeling guilty because it doesn't improve the world any more than a regular bath would (by cleaning me, thereby making me less offensive to others).
Whether or not it is moral to promote such games is moot. I don't promote them or produce them, and I have no influence over those that DO. So, meh. *shrug*
I think the biggest component of this particular incident is probably the drugs coupled with the parents just not being aware of what was going on in their kid's lives.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Right now I'm sitting around typing and watching ESPN. I do this a lot of the day. The rest of the time I'm going to class (sure, let's pretend I go to class) or am studying (humor me, here.) These don't help anybody. So, entertainment and education are both not good, in that if you attend to them you're only really helping yourself. At least, that's why MOST people go to school, so they can get a job at daddy's firm or whatever. Does this make me a bad person?
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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To borrow a line from Jeff Foxworthy, I'd love to hear a troubled kid say this sometime:
quote:You know what, my daddy was great, my mommy was great, I'm just a sh*thead
You know, if you use his mom's line of thinking, I'm pretty sure that we could blame people drinking water for going on killing sprees (since *every* mass murderer out there has taken at least one drink of water in their lifetimes), or continue that line of thinking and say that electricity is the root cause of all evil (since they've used electricity to play video games).
Edit: time to go listen to some george carlin and dennis miller.
posted
The Simpsons Road Rage is not, I repeat NOT violent! It's a knock-off of Crazy Taxi that involves radioactive buses, but no violence. That is, unless the XBOX version is insanely different from the Gamecube version, which is so unlikely I don't even consider it possible. about stupid people who blame all their kids' problems on video games!
Posts: 981 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:by cleaning me, thereby making me less offensive to others
A classic case of too little too late.
You know, I have really mixed feelings about the whole "violence in video-games" issue (Note--I'm not talking about Simpsons Road Rage. I'm not familiar with the game, but I'm sure that those of you who are know what you're talking about). All my life, I've considered arguments that computer games, AD&D, and the like are harmful to be fairly ridiculous. I've been playing video games since before I could reach the joystick on Space Invaders (many thanks to my father, who patiently held me up so that I could work the controls and see the screen at the same time), and have been a fan of AD&D practically since its inception. Whenever people have talked about games turning people toward slaughtering their mothers, classmates, themselves, etc, I've always pointed them to the kid who killed himself when Battlestar Galactica was taken off the air, and said that people like that were inherently unstable, and if one thing hadn't triggered their violent actions, another would have.
I still think that that's mostly true, but at the same time, it seems fairly clear to me that "you are what you eat" extends out to the concepts and such that your mind digests. If (especially at an impressionable age) you play a game in which shooting strippers turns them into showers of cash (like in one of the Duke Nukem games, the demo of which I found repulsive back in the mid '90s), and play it repeatedly, on some level something from that is bound to soak into your unconscious, isn't it?
People are obviously effected by the society that they're raised in; nobody's personality develops in a hermetically sealed box. Violence in computer games is certainly not a primary problem--there are much bigger fish to fry--but at the same time, it has to be a contributing factor in the development of people who play the games, doesn't it?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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Oh yes, what child is not inspired to kill people after playing a game about yellow people driving pink cars down the street saying "eat my shorts" God I hate the age of being PC.
Posts: 1900 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Because I myself play many many violent video games, and I don't think I am going to just go off killing people.
*Goes off towards the police station saying, "Hey I wonder if I could reenact that scene from Terminator?"*
Posts: 1900 | Registered: Oct 2003
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As a general response to the thread, I follow you. As a response to me I don't quite follow.
In any case, I'm not really disagreeing with you--it's ridiculous to place the blame for this kind of thing solely on a video game. Even if this Simpsons game were the bloodiest gorefest since last year's bloodiest gorefest, it still would be ridiculous.
I also think, though, that it's ridiculous to claim that anything that one does repeatedly, frequently, doesn't in some way soak down into one's being.
Now, that isn't to say that playing, say, a misogynistic 1st person shooter is going to turn a kid into a misogynist. People are a lot more complicated than that. Nonetheless, arguing that repeatedly playing such a game would have no effect whatsoever on a developing personality seems a bit...absurd.
I mean, I read a lot of SF. Many of my dreams have strong SF elements in them. Would you argue that there's no connection there? Would you argue that my mind hasn't digested the stories that I've read and incorporated elements of them into my psyche so strongly that they emerge in archetypal fashion in my dreams? Is it just a coincidence that I have such dreams?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I was going to post my thoughts, but Noemon did a wonderful job of summing up how I felt. Here, here.
Posts: 213 | Registered: Dec 2003
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Good point, but it just really gets to me when people try make a eutopia with life, violence is part of who we are, its what stopped Htler, to try and stamp it out becuase it isn't nice is just pointless, a totaly nieve way of thinking, like when they tried to blame Halo for the sniper killings because its a violent game, they said "The killers used this game to hone their deadly skills and dull their care for life..."I just went crazy and wouldn't watch the news for a month, and still have yet to view any NBC because of the dateline special about it.
[ December 04, 2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Rhaegar The Fool ]
Posts: 1900 | Registered: Oct 2003
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To place the blame on video games is absurd. The blame falls primarily, if not completly on the person who commited the act. Any blame that may be left over could be placed on the parents, if the ratings listed on the video game was above the recommended age. If an adult plays a video game and they decide that the violence they saw on said video game was a good idea, it is not the fault of the video game industry if the person commits a similar crime. Other people can't be blamed for someone's psychotic episodes. That is my opinion on the subject, and despite what everyone has said over the past fiveyears about the subject nothing has made me think that the video game industry holds any responsibilty for a crime that was committed by someone who blames all on video games.
Posts: 129 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote: HALO is an XBox game too, and I personally watched Geoff Card play a ton of that game. HE'S not out sending cops on a high speed chase while brandishing firearms.
This is absolute crap.
Agreed. I absolutely love Halo on my Xbox, and I would like to think that I'm quite sane.
Of course, I like Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit 2 better lately, but that's because I always have a soft spot for racing games. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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mack, we will always blame you internally. *grin* And no, I will NOT go on AIM, because I am going to bed.
These are my thoughts on the parts of the thread that I actually read (no reflection on the authors of the various posts, I'm just trying to get to bed, here):
Violent videogames might make you less sensitive to seeing violence, but I do not accept that they make you less sensitive to performing violence. That requires a dissociative personality (am I saying that right, mack?) and some degree of sociopathy. That is my opinion.
Morality of actions: look, I can rationalize ANYTHING, within reason. Reading books does help people: it keeps lots of folks in their jobs. Bookbinders, editors, writers, even the people who make lattes for these people are kept as viable members of the economy. I am a capitalist (not like the ca-razy Ayn Rand, though) and I believe in keeping the economy on a roll through my purchasing power! Driving my car around helps the economy through the consumption of fuel. Who would benefit from my purchasing power if I stayed at home? That's just nuts! Reading books makes me happy, if I am happy, my family is happy. If my family is happy, that produces more good vibes and increases the Karmic Value of my family unit.
Hooray for me! I am nearly *always* doing good!
Blame mack for my good Karma. Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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Hey, Nick, I don't have a problem with that. It's just one of many rationalizations I have for my continued selfish behavior. *grin*
I'm not sure I believe in Karma exactly (but I *do* believe in Kama!), but I believe that personal happiness is important to the society as a whole. Is that easier for you to swallow? hehe.
Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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**bump** ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' (I was interested in seeing where this thread might be going, well, it went to the second page, and that's no good!)
Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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Hee hee hee. When my toddler received this game from her daddy for Christmas, I remembered that I had read something alarming about it on hatrack. Turns out I wrote something alarming about it on hatrack. at myself.
Okay. So now I am wondering if I should let them play it because I don't normally let them watch the Simpson's. Most people are alarmed that their boy will turn out like Bart, but I'm much more concerned that my daughter doesn't need any encouragement to act more like Lisa than she already does.
Posts: 666 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:*groans* And then some moron in Japan kills his mother because of Neon Genesis Evangelion. The lesson? Don't let these losers and morons watch ANYTHING or listen to music more intense than elevator music.
If memory serves, Evangelion did have a lot of elevator music in it.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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Video games: Playing the scapegoat for sh---y parents for over 20 years.
Well, here's a clue. Video games don't turn people violent. My friends and I have all been video game players since before we can remember. I got an NES when I was seven. Before that, it was Intellivision. And we are all decent, law-abiding, well-adjusted people.
How did we manage? Well, we had good parents, that's how. These tapioca-heads would be amazed at the wonders good parenting can do. If your child goes on a killing spree, I don't care what video games he's been playing. The video games are not at fault. It is your fault for not doing your @!($%# job as a parent!Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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about stupid people who blame all their kids' problems on video games!
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