posted
Dean's statement on educating white people is actually of a discussion that has been in colleges for years now, I'm rather surprised that it hasn't come to the national front till now. Now, everybody is required to have US History classes in high school, or perhaps even a Western History course (if their school provides it), but there is no African American history course, there is no Asian history course, or a Latino history course. That's why quite a few colleges (such as Emory University) have been debating on making African American courses part of the basic requirements. This in itself isn't just about test scores, it's about social equality.
Javert: in itself, it will not directly attack the problem of minorities testing lower, but instead I see it as going to the source of the problem, because whites test better in standardized tests such as the SATs because they are centered around what white middle class students know, but as people learn of cultures and histories other than their own, the problems of equality in schools and testing will aleviate themselves. Satyagraha
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posted
What about expanding the US history course to cover, you know, everyone involved in US history?
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quote:The above problems are real, if they were fixed many of the current woes would at least be comparable to the rest of Americas, and NONE of the above would be fixed by WHITE education.
So your presence and instruction didn't do any good? Everyone you visited was just as bad off as before you visited, and would have been just as bad off had you stayed, and furthermore, you aren't better equipt to go back to Detroit after your initial eduacational experience.
Javert, if you read the article, when Dr. Dean talks about the education of white America, he doesn't mean that you learning Latin will solve racism, he means that you going in to Detroit and learning from, teaching, then you going out and shaping policy, telling your friends or family who may not notice that they only hire white people for executive positions, then going back in and learning more and teaching and reading to these kids who may not know the virtues of the written word. You are charged with wiping out and a long and awful legacy that you didn't individually have a part in. It's not fair, but I'm not going to stomach any cries about it because it's still a lot better than the alternative.
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quote:because whites test better in standardized tests such as the SATs because they are centered around what white middle class students know,
There is an incredible amount of truth to this phrase. Though, I do believe that there should be a predominance of Western Civilization in history and English classes, if for other reason than there is a fantastic account and legacy of the human condition in the books written by and about dead white guys. I studied philosophy and read exclusively dead white guys, with an occasional twentieth century woman, and I'm a better person for it. I studied music and played some of the most difficult and telling music in the westen tradition, written by dead white men,l and I am a better person for it. And not only am I a better person for it, I'm a better agent in 21st century America for my knowledge of western civilization.
For me, the purpose of education is simple. To create curious minds who are given the tools to endure that arduous process of figuring out how the world truly opens up to them, and to do this without endure and relish that process without relying on someone to do the thinking for them. Then, once you figure out how the world itself up to you, and if you aren't struck dumb by the singularity and awesomeness of your vision, then you can help other people build their minds to figure out honestly and truly how the world opens up to them, knowing that the manifold of differences stem are substantial, but you and the next person are both human.
I think that's what a good politician or teacher can do.
quote: but there is no African American history course, there is no Asian history course, or a Latino history course.
But I am certain that they have AMERICAN history courses. This idea of having "seperate but equal" history courses that deal with each racial minority is as insulting as it is dangerous. Are we not trying to STOP people from seperating people out by race? The important events of American history should be covered because they are important to understanding our country, and knowing where it comes from. If a college wants to have a seperate black history course, fine. But lets not confuse such a course with Overall American history. BY seperating the achievments of minorities from those by whites, you destroy any chance of having a non-racist society.
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posted
I'm not in the slightest bit unaware of my obligations.
But whatever teaching and help might have occurred because of me, any benefit to the lives of people I met had little to nothing to do with me and everything to do with the people who listened.
It isn't that MY education is a bad move - it is just supremely not the only one. It doesn't matter in the slightest how educated the teachers are if the kids are not willing/in a position to learn.
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quote: because whites test better in standardized tests such as the SATs because they are centered around what white middle class students know
This is not true. How are math, logic, and vocabulary problems slanted toward whites?
In fact, the SAT is slanted in favor of blacks. The SAT is ment to predict the standing of a student after his/her first year of college. In fact, the SAT over-predicts the ranking of black test takers.
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posted
While this is an interesting diversion, I'd be interested in at least hearing if you still thought Dean was an idiot after reading through some of those position statements, and if you think Bush isn't an idiot despite his numerous idiotic public statements, Kat.
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posted
Practicing medicine is about the communication of accurate information.
That is the red thread to pluck out, the crux of the matter, the core of the enterprise.
Sure, it's also about knowing physiology, pharmacology, and anatomy; and it's about understanding the construction of a differential diagnosis; and there's a good deal of psychology involved, too; and one has to be skilled in certain techniques (like draining abscesses, stitching up a wound, reviewing statistical analyses, and what have you); and, and, and ...
And still, the crux is about communicating accurate information. But that simple sentence packs in it a broad set of prior assumptions (e.g., learning how to assess which information is correct). It also is the best phrase to summarize the point because it is upon this that the important outcomes are predicated.
Perhaps to achieve the outcomes of lessening the disparity of resources, improving test scores, and strengthening interpersonal relationships, Dean believes he has to go through educating white people first?
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posted
Care about what? I care about solving the problem of racism. And I see that constant victimization is not going to achieve this end. I am honestly asking you to explain to me, what you see that is unfair about the questions on either the SAT or the ACT, and how that unfairness translates into better scores for whites.
The problem is not with the test. The problem is with the students taking the test. As you stated before, if they don't know the vocabulary, they have little chance of passing. Instead of changing the vocabulary of the test, why not actually teach this vocabular to everyone? Why hold our punches for inner-city students who underperform? Why give a free pass due to economic situations? This is the same as giving up on a kid and just passing them along. Accountability is a big part of the problem.
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posted
Yeah, that was flippant. Okay, I'll be slightly less passive-aggressive.
Bush is another topic entirely, and since by position and power, he inspires more passion than Dean (note how many times he has been brought up during this thread), there's no reason to discuss him in this thread at all. It is only distracting, which I suspect may be the point.
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quote:As you stated before, if they don't know the vocabulary, they have little chance of passing. Instead of changing the vocabulary of the test, why not actually teach this vocabular to everyone?
I never wanted to change the vocabulary on the test, Robespierre. 1) I'd like the administrators to articulate the purpose of having vocabulary be a determining factor on the test. (When an analogy test becomes more about understanding the terms than understanding the relationships between the terms, something is not being explained. If we were speaking in terms of the Princess Bride, "I do not think this test tests what you think it tests." 2) Go about the business of teaching the vocabulary. ____________________________________________
If we go back to my card game analogy on the other page, I don't want to change the rules of the game, rather, I'd love a clear and cogent explanations of the rules to all of the new players. I'm sure that there is a reason that hoopty will not be on the SAT while abject will. I'm even sure that it's a good reason.
______________________
CT, communication is the silver bullet. Writers, politicians, parents, teachers, preachers, diplomats, doctors, businessmen, and lawyers all say the same thing. It's about communication. It's why God is speaking to the world in Genesis, and why John is opens the New Testament expounding on the virtues of the Word.
posted
You had to look in a dictionary? After peepin' you hella sideways for not knowin', the last kid I tutored could have learned you without trippin'.
The problem is that she didn't know what gamut, abject, or salacious meant. The issue is figuring out why it's more important that children learn the definition of "askance" rather than knowing what a "buster" is, then we have to go about the business of communicating why learning what "askance" means is a good thing.
posted
Kat, have you read the Dean statements I pointed you at? He explicitly supports a number of the things you assert he has idiotically ignored with that sound bite. If you're going to complain about him for not supporting them (on essentially no evidence) perhaps you'd care to compliment him for supporting them?
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Recent studies have revealed that there is a huge gap between white's perceptions of racism and black's perceptions. If the overwhelming majority of whites believe that racism is no longer a problem in the US, then in a democratic society where the majority sets the agenda, racism will not be dealt with in any meaningful way.
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quote: If the overwhelming majority of whites believe that racism is no longer a problem in the US, then in a democratic society where the majority sets the agenda, racism will not be dealt with in any meaningful way.
This would be true if we lived in a direct democracy. We do not however. The majority cannot make rules which hamper the minority(in theory). A state religion may not be established simply because 66% of the people wish it to be so.
The same goes for the media. The media is not bound by what everyone wants to hear. Read the NewYork Times and tell me their editorial positions and their slant on news reporting represents the majority of people in this country. The few are protected from the tyranny of the many by the bill of rights. Sometimes the few need to remind the many of what those rights are, but all in all, the system seems to work somewhat well.
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I did have to look it up. I didn't have the foggiest idea what it might have meant. Same with "peepin'", although I can guess from the context. *consults urbandictionary.com*
quote:peep verb To view or inspect something for the purpose of determining it's use.
Okay.
Most of the words used on the GRE and similar, I didn't hear every day either. Like most Hatrackers, I got them from books. I don't think I've ever heard salacious used in a sentence outside of a classroom, but I didn't get all my vocabulary solely from the words spoken around me. I don't think the GRE DOES reward the vocabulary picked up in conversation - it rewards the vocabulary picked up from books.
Personally, I think that's why vocabulary is measured so often on standardized tests, and why it is seen as an indicator of school performance. It doesn't measure on how smart you are or the education level of the person who says hello to you when you come home from school - it measures how much you read.
Fugu, I haven't, but I will. Thank you for posting the links.
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quote:It's easy to pick out one-liners and call them simplistic. How about you examine his views on racial inequality in toto? I'm sure he's said more on the matter than this.
posted
Javert, you talk about where the solution starts. It starts with you, a white woman, using your considerable knowledge and gumption to walk into a house and say, "Where are all of the men? I think there is something wrong here, and we have to sit down and talk about it." and it ends with one of the little boys in the house growing up to be a good father.
It begins with the outsider with all of the answers, well, at least a few of them. It does in Rousseau, it does in the Constitution, and it even does in SFTD. In everyday dialogue, no one is omniscient so if you can get people to put off the demands of incessant poverty to ask the right questions, then that's not so bad of a start.
It's the beginning. The first step is only a step, and usually it's a stumble, but the last step doesn't happen spontaneously, it happens because of the first step. If anything, Dean's statement was a statement of pragmatism.
posted
Why are you still here posting messages instead of reading the links fugu provided? Are you so utterly convinced that that soundbite is the be-all and end-all of Dean's policy that no amount of evidence to the contrary will change your mind?
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quote:This would be true if we lived in a direct democracy. We do not however. The majority cannot make rules which hamper the minority(in theory). A state religion may not be established simply because 66% of the people wish it to be so.
True but entirely irrelevant since programs to mitigate the adverse effects that Jim Crow laws, slavery, segregation etc. have on modern day African Americans are not constitutionally mandated.
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quote: programs to mitigate the adverse effects that Jim Crow laws, slavery, segregation etc. have on modern day African Americans are not constitutionally mandated.
This is very correct. There is indeed no constitutional basis for affirmative action. For this, and many other reasons, it should be abolished.
Javert, he spoke of it as what it's "all about." That can mean it is the end of the endeavor, or it can mean it is the eye of the needle that must be gone through first.
quote: If the overwhelming majority of whites believe that racism is no longer a problem in the US, then in a democratic society where the majority sets the agenda, racism will not be dealt with in any meaningful way.
posted
How long has "hoopty" been in use? "Buster", at least as what I hear it currently means?
"Abject" may be obscure, but it's been around plenty long enough for the tests to include it without changing every year.
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posted
Fixing the problem of racism does rest in the education of White folks. See, white people are born with the priviledge of being born white. We don't have to worry about our race and culture. We just ARE. We don't have to worry at traffic stops about the cops taking an offense to our color and attitude and choosing to make our lives miserable. We don't have to think of race as a factor in getting a job. We have to qualify. Often, minorities have to overqualify. The education of white people isn't about book learning. It's about realizing the priviledge we're born with and using that to combat rampant racism.
Many posts in this thread have concentrated on victim blaming. That it's the fault of the minorities that they're in their current situation. They aren't working hard enough at school. They aren't working hard enough at work. They aren't trying to succeed. They aren't learning how to speak proper English.
We ask them to give up their culture and live in a White world. That's racism. White culture is the majority culture, so we assume that it's the proper culture and that the minorities, if they want to succeed and end racism, they should want to acculturate to us.
That's crap. If we expect others to acculturate to US, that's racism. We're assuming that their culture isn't decent enough and they should better themselves.
And about American history being taught in class? Are we looking at the history of the Native Americans and their trip across and down into North and South American hundreds if not thousands of years before the first White people came to the Americas? Right now, American history classes mostly teach the majority culture's history--the White history of America.
It's racism to shout down from our pedestal and tell the minorities that they should get over their racism and try harder.
It's hard to stand up with someone standing on your back.
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posted
It's hard to stand up also when you depend on other people standing for you.
I'm NOT blaming. However, if you're in a hole, letting the people up there KNOW you are in a hole and they need to throw a rope doesn't do squat if you don't grab the rope and climb.
quote:You're hanging out with the wrong people . . .
No kidding. How can smart and sincere people be so judgemental and boring at the same time? I want to move to Hatrack. I'm irritated with my options here.
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quote: The education of white people isn't about book learning. It's about realizing the priviledge we're born with and using that to combat rampant racism.
The basic problem of this discussion is that the results of what people proclaim are most often totally intangible. Is it enough for me to say that I am not a racist, and that I tolerate no racism in my presence? I would think it is, but I have a feeling that this is not what you want.
The continued oppression of blacks in this country is being perpetrated by the black exploitative leadership and whites who accept the guilt implied by this sort of rhetoric. The message from the black leadership is that there is no chance of success in this country if you are black, without government help. That it is okay to enslave others in exchange for some government help.
No one in this discussion or any other on hatrack(to the best of my knowledge) has claimed that there does not exist racism. Racism comes in various forms and degrees from all people. The question becomes one of a final goal. What would you like see as the end result of your ideas, mackillian? Should there be a guarantee of outcomes in life? Should we make it impossible for people to fail?
quote: We ask them to give up their culture and live in a White world. That's racism.
Firstly, what is "white" culture? When you define "American Culture" as white culture, you systematically exclude all other races from any contributions to the culture, and embrace what you proclaim is wrong.
Secondly, who is asking anyone to give up their culture?
quote: Right now, American history classes mostly teach the majority culture's history--the White history of America.
This is as far from the truth as I can imagine. The last thirty years has seen a massive swing in the prejudices displayed by history courses. They started out glossing over the crimes of western civilization, but have moved to a sort of multicultural worship that distorts people's understanding of history. This is why there exist people like the fellow who wrote the article about Lord of the Rings , claiming it was racist. This man had no understanding of history, and demonstrated that readily in his meandering rant. History should be taught as best we understand it, not to highlight minority achievements above all others.
posted
If you live in a country, you will have to face that country's culture. If you want to be a part of a subculture within that country, you can, but it will impact the way people view you, especially first impressions. This has been true since as far as history has been recorded in nearly every human group, large and small. If you are hoping we can somehow change this fact now, it is not going to happen.
There is no white culture. There is an American culture, and most Americans are white, but this does not mean the culture is by definition for whites. I have known many friends who were of different races and yet adhered to American culture just as much as my white friends did, and apparently did not find anything wrong with being a part of the dominant culture. They didn't feel that because their skin is black their culture should include BET instead of MTV.
What's more, I know a couple white folks who are a part of what people might describe as "black" culture. They grew up in an environment where that subculture was dominant, and it belongs to them no less than it belongs to any dark skinned friends of theirs. I strongly suspect that, because of the way they dress, speak, and act, they face many of the same problems black folks of the same subculture face.
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posted
I grew up in a very multi cultural area of southern CA. (I was the only white kid in the neighborhood other than my brothers for quite a while).
I still remember going to college in Oklahoma and having the black guy I happened to sit next to on the first day of school, go into shock that I was talking to him.
What is interesting, but not discussed much is the plight of the multi-racial children. They are alternately accepted and rejected by "white" or "black" cultures depending on where they came from and what their interest was. Particularly nerdy kids. Nerds have their own set of social difficulties but are often reviled far more in black society than white society. I have multiple friends who have struggled with this, including Steve, who I have been with for four years. Steve was the token white kid when he lived in a black neighborhood, and the token black kid when he lived in a white neighborhood. I just realized that where we bought a house he is likely the only black guy in the neighborhood.
On the college campus that I went to things were very polarized between the two cultures, because of the prevalence and strength on campus of both historically black, and historically white fraternities and sororities. I was actually asked if I was interested in joining a black sorority, and I was extremely honored at the request, although I didn't join. The problem is that a black girl who chose to go into a traditionally white sorority would be shunned by her black peers has having sold out to whitey rather than praised as making a groundbreaking stride forward. Things are very parallel with males.
The nerds make their own way in the world. However I think it is often more difficult for the black nerds compared to everyone else. White people understand that nerds can end up like Bill Gates. Where is the black Bill Gates equivalent? Maybe it is in the next generation, I don't know. There are "bill gates"ish role models in other racial groups, but it is much harder to find them among blacks.
Maybe it will be my friend Kendrick. I have fond memories of my friend Kendrick Bailey walking around campus in a kilt of his clan colors. The Bailey name came from an Irish great great grandfather, but he'd get some strange looks as he, a tall black guy with nerdy glasses would go trotting around in said kilt. He was great to hang out with though and would have fit in well at hatrack!
quote:We ask them to give up their culture and live in a White world. That's racism. White culture is the majority culture, so we assume that it's the proper culture and that the minorities, if they want to succeed and end racism, they should want to acculturate to us.
What culture would they be giving up? I don't get this one, Jamie.
In many an inner city community, unwed teens giving birth is completely acceptable. Even anticipated. Wes went on a run to a pregnant 18 year old and actually heard the child's mother comment that it was about time she finally was having her first child. At 18, she was considered old to be bearing her first baby.
Now, in some places in the world, that's normal. But here in America, having children as young teens and not finishing your education is not a recipe for success. That goes for white, black, hispanic, whatever. It's not about a white way of life, but a successful way of life.
There are communities of white people in America that suffer the exact same ills as an inner city project populated solely by minorities. They were born with the privilege of being white and it hasn't apparently done them much good.
I have known teens that came out of extreme poverty and earned college scholarships and become very successful in life. Or that finished high school, got a job and through a great work ethic are now business owners and worth millions. The opportunities they took advantage of were in place for their peers as well. It wasn't a matter of it not being possible, but rather a matter of the others not wanting it. Why?
That's the question to be answered. Why do so many people ignore the opportunities in front of them and instead settle for a life of poverty? How can that be changed? I can educate all the people around me and we can pour all kinds of money into programs that help inner city youth but if the kids don't show up - it accomplishes nothing.
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posted
It's weird but the people I'm around seem to find Racism as a joke. They find it as a way to classify a person. For us, Racism is only harsh on the parents right now. Not that many people make ssuch a big deal out of it around us but whenever it comes to segregation we're always dreading it. Friends are torn apart because of it. Oh well, I guess that's just reality.
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quote:Why do so many people ignore the opportunities in front of them and instead settle for a life of poverty? How can that be changed? I can educate all the people around me and we can pour all kinds of money into programs that help inner city youth but if the kids don't show up - it accomplishes nothing.
There is always the matter of competition. Some people are not encouraged to do things because there are always better people. Like my math club, there are only 2 blacks and about 5 whites. The rest are Asian and its a big club. In another club there are probably only 4 Asians. People don't take opportunities where it seems that none of their "race" is in and won't do well in. They settle for a lower life because they don't believe they coudl ever match up to those 'above' them.
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posted
Belle is on the opposite end of the "Who Needs to Change" spectrum from Dean's statement. I don't agree that all currently have equal opportunity and it's their fault for not taking those opportunities.
[ January 05, 2004, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
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quote:However, if you're in a hole, letting the people up there KNOW you are in a hole and they need to throw a rope doesn't do squat if you don't grab the rope and climb.
What ropes are they being handed?
quote:Then change the history class to encompass ALL history.
I completely agree. Instead, everything is separated into different histories if the other histories are offered.
quote:Is it enough for me to say that I am not a racist, and that I tolerate no racism in my presence? I would think it is, but I have a feeling that this is not what you want.
What racism has appeared in your person that you have not tolerated? What actions did you take so that you made it not tolerated?
quote:The continued oppression of blacks in this country is being perpetrated by the black exploitative leadership and whites who accept the guilt implied by this sort of rhetoric.
How? Examples, please.
quote:The message from the black leadership is that there is no chance of success in this country if you are black, without government help.
What mysterious black leadership? I'm also not just addressing the black minorities...there are others around as well. And the message would be that there is no chance for black success in this country without the help and support of the majority, instead of the majority blaming the minorities for their own problems.
quote:That it is okay to enslave others in exchange for some government help.
Unpack that, please.
quote:What would you like see as the end result of your ideas, mackillian? Should there be a guarantee of outcomes in life?
I think for people to take responsibility for their own roles in racism, whether conscious or unconscious and take steps forward from there.
quote:Firstly, what is "white" culture? When you define "American Culture" as white culture, you systematically exclude all other races from any contributions to the culture, and embrace what you proclaim is wrong.
See, that's the bugbear right there. White people don't even have to think about what their culture is, because it's just there, the majority, and for most of their lives, aren't outnumbered by a different culture. And right now, American Culture IS primarily white culture because whites are the majority and the united states is not the melting pot it proclaims to be.
quote:Secondly, who is asking anyone to give up their culture?
We are, by demanding that minorities pull themselves up out of what we see as the mire of their culture and join ours, to think as we do.
quote:This is as far from the truth as I can imagine. The last thirty years has seen a massive swing in the prejudices displayed by history courses. They started out glossing over the crimes of western civilization, but have moved to a sort of multicultural worship that distorts people's understanding of history.
What distortions are you naming? Adding in other cultures that also were in American besides the Europeans distorts true historical fact?
quote:History should be taught as best we understand it, not to highlight minority achievements above all others.
Who is we? As who understands it? As the majority understands it? History is most always written by the victors.
Adrian, I can't quote your entire post. The thing is, what you wrote is the assumption of many people, that the poor, inner city, bad ways of life minories is the culture of the minorities. That isn't true.
The enthnicity with the highest percentage of people on welfare?...Whites.
Part of Latino culture is that a child does not look an adult in the eye. Only when that child reachs adulthood can the person look an adult in the eye. Also, a child is not an adult until marriage.
See, being able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps is the American ideal. Anyone can do it if they REALLY REALLY try. But statistically, it isn't true. We only read about the few success stories.
Did you know that women make only 75 cents for every dollar a man makes? Why hasn't that changed? How can it be changed? Are women too complacent as a minority to step up and do something about it?
They won't be until men realize what's happening, care enough to take steps to fix it, and figure out their own roles in allowing it to happen.
I know that as a woman I work my ass off in the workplace. But statistically, it's the men who will end up in the higher administration, higher paying jobs. Even in a field dominated by women.
Ethnic minorities function in much the same way--they beat their heads against a glass ceiling that the majority says doesn't really exist.
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quote: Did you know that women make only 75 cents for every dollar a man makes? Why hasn't that changed? How can it be changed? Are women too complacent as a minority to step up and do something about it?
They won't be until men realize what's happening, care enough to take steps to fix it, and figure out their own roles in allowing it to happen.
I really tried to stay out of this discussion, but I can’t let this pass. Why is it “men” who have to do something to fix this? Why isn’t it society as a whole? It seems to avoid making any sweeping stereotypes about women that might explain this gap, we have to make sweeping stereotypes about men keeping women down. Why is it acceptable to make that stereotype?
posted
Is isn't a stereotype, it's a statement of the majority. The minority can do all it wants, but it can't make great gains without the support from the majority.
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posted
You think a majority of men spend time thinking of ways to keep women making less than them? SOrry, that just doesn't happen. There is no majority that meets in secret to set the salaries for women each year. If it does, I haven't gotten my invitation yet.
I agree with Scott Adams on this one: Men don't rule the world. It's possible that some men rule the world, but the vast majority of men are no better off because of it.
quote:You think a majority of men spend time thinking of ways to keep women making less than them? SOrry, that just doesn't happen. There is no majority that meets in secret to set the salaries for women each year. If it does, I haven't gotten my invitation yet.
No. It's unconscious. It's the status quo that makes up life. If that unconscious sexism didn't exist, then the wage parity wouldn't exist, either.
It isn't fair to tell the minories they must take steps to pave their better future if the majority can't look at themselves and their position instead of shouting from a pedestal.
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